Are you saying that we cannot see that someone has repented because this is judging someone’s heart? From what you wrote above that is what you said, and then you judged Miller in the same way.

How does Campbell’s words agree with you at all unless you’re implying that these 3 men added to the Gospel?

Which one of these 3 men actually said, “I can judge the hearts of my enemies, and they all sin knowingly and so deserve their damnation”? Have you judged their hearts?

Did you mean to imply that rebellious people do not go to church especially not millions of people?

In your comments, why do you recognize that the specifics of baptism exclude infant baptism, but then scoff that there is that God’s commands exclude alternatives? Was this dishonesty or disregard?

Are rules and commands different? How? Is singing a rule and is baptism a command? Are those who love God keeping His commands also following rules?

You’re right that you do have a very different understanding of human nature than these men.

When would you say that someone falls from grace?

May we all find grace and peace in Christ.

There is no such thing as “Gopher wood!” The translators of the KJV transliterated the Hebrew word “gopher” because they didn’t know what it meant. The lexicon says it is an unknown term. The NIV opts for “cypress,” while others suggest that it may be pine.

We have a century’s worth of arguments that Noah had to make the ark out of gopher wood because the command excluded all other kinds of wood when it’s possible that the command was generic, rather than specific. “Hey, Noah, go collect some wood and build an ark according to the instructions I give you.”

I’m not trying to be a pain. The “Gopher wood” argument just grates on me.
Peace,
Mark

I’m listening to Dr. Gilmore’s last tape. Some good and some bad. Mostly bad.

1. He’s clear that it’s wrong to judge the motives of those who disagree on doctrinal issues. Good.

2. He misuses the NT term “truth.” The verses he quotes are speaking of the gospel, not anything someone finds true in the Bible.

3. He falsely analogizes instrumental music with the gay bishop in the Boston Episcopalian diocese. He argues that because we must repent of homosexuality (true) we must also repent of instrumental music to be in the church. He fails to distinguish between known sin and disagreements over how to interpret the scriptures. If he’s right, we must repent of ALL doctrinal error to be saved.

4. He demands unity “on the word of God.” Amen. What about grace isn’t in the word of God?

5. He accuses the progressives of being Postmodern. Not so (on the whole). I’m certainly the farthest thing from a Postmodern. Rubel Shelly has an annoying habit of trying to teach through a Postmodern lens — but this teaching is not what drives the progressive movement. Not even close. I mean, the movement predates the word “Postmodern.” Was Thomas Campbell a Postmodernist?

6. Argues that Christians must obey Jesus. Does anyone argue to the contrary? The question is not whether we are to obey (of course, we are), but whether there is grace for those believers who fail to do so despite trying.

7. He falsely analogizes progressive Churches to emerging churches, quoting Dan Kimball (whom he misunderstands). It’s a frivolous argument.

8. “The instrument per se is a small issue compared to a larger issue.” Do you obey the Bible? Dr. Gilmore started by saying he wouldn’t question motives. And he ends by questioning motives. The progressives are trying to obey the Bible. Of course. How can he say otherwise? He is judging their motives.

9. He argues that we ought to be a cappella “to be safe.” Hence, he finds safety in rule keeping. The NT warns us against exactly this attitude.

10. He analogizes progressives to those who lie to their parents — willfully disobeying. Again, he judges motives.

11. He makes the argument from silence. Says wrong to baptize babies because Bible is silent on infant baptism. He then argues that it’s wrong because doctrine of original sin is wrong — which proves the Bible isn’t really silent on infant baptism, doesn’t it?

12. He says that if “principle of silence” isn’t true, then “nothing in the Bible means anything at all.” After all, if silence isn’t binding, then Noah could have built the ark out of something other than gopher wood. But, of course, God wasn’t silent on this subject. He spoke. He said, “Gopher wood”! How is this not obvious?

It’s just one strawman argument after another. Nothing new or even interesting.

I just wanted to let you know that my brother in Christ, Al Maxey, two latest “reflections” are on this subject.

Talking about Dr. Ralph Gilmore. I found this doing a Google search. A Cappella Music: How Can Churches of Christ Stay Together? is a series of lessons presented by Dr. Ralph Gilmore from Freed-Hardeman University on September 28-30, 2007 at the Rockledge church of Christ in Rockledge, Florida. They are posted on the Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ, website. ” http://www.pblcoc.org/V2/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=12&id=244&Itemid=60 ” is the website address.

Please pray for me, You see, I am an Undercover Missionary working in the legalistic patternistic Churches of Christ. I tried using my real name but that did not work out too good so I am now working as a undercover missionary which is working out great.

Thank you for praying for me,
Undercover Missionary
undercovermissionary@gmail.com

Peace.

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I sent my article explaining my disagreement with the three ministers who published the ad to the ministers for comment before posting. Several days later, one posted a comment on this site expressing his views.

I have offered to post any reply they have alongside my own materials. I have also offered to engage in an on-line discussion regarding what causes someone to fall from grace. So far, they’ve not agreed to do so.

I make the same offer to you. I’ll be glad to post here or on both our sites an exchange of views as to when a Christian falls from grace. I think our readers would benefit from such an exchange. I strongly feel that the truth emerges best when all sides are allowed to be presented. I won’t moderate your posts (I don’t moderate anyone’s posts) — say whatever you wish.

The biggest issue the Churches of Christ face, I believe, is with regard to the doctrine of falling from grace. You and I are going to disagree on one issue or another, and we can only consider each other brothers in Christ if the disagreement doesn’t cost one of our souls.

I believe the Bible strongly supports Thomas Campbell’s views on who my brother is. Obviously, much of the Churches of Christ disagree. It would be a worthwhile and interesting conversation.

Regarding your post, I’ve not suggested an ecumenical policy, not in the “ecumenical movement” sense of the word. I do believe that unity is a gift of God and that we’ve often refused to accept the gift he’s given us. For those in grace — baptized, penitent, believers — grace covers doctrinal errors, other than those that would take one out of grace — loss of faith or loss of penitence.

Manifestly, one who worships contrary to what he knows is right is impenitent and in serious jeopardy of his soul. But “know” is not “should know.” We should all be perfect. We aren’t, and so God extends grace to us in our weakness.

The verses you cite don’t say “There comes a time when a Christian in grace has to get all doctrine right or else lose his soul.” There is no such verse.

Moreover, no one really teaches that — although some have said some things really close to that. Rather, all the writers tolerate some disagreement. However, the writers and opinion leaders among the conservative Churches disagree as to just what is damnable and what is not.

Dr. Ralph Gilmore in the FHU debate over instrumental music opined that clapping with the music in worship is an “aid” not an “addition.” Frank Chesser in The Spirit of Liberalism says clapping denies the faith! It’s easy to come up with plenty of such examples.

Even the most prominent and presumably most mature among the conservatives can’t agree on what’s permitted and not and what damns and doesn’t. And I’ve yet to hear anyone from among them give a rule for just what doctrinal error is covered by grace and what error isn’t.

Dr. Gilmore actually declared in the debate that he could find no scripture answering that question — and yet he argued strenuously that grace doesn’t cover error as to the instrument.

On the other hand, Thomas Campbell’s views are easily taught, understood, and applied — and had we remained true to his original vision, we’d still be united today. More precisely, we’d all acknowledge the unity that God has given us today.

You have apparently been quite busy defending yourself and criticizing the people who placed the ad in the newspaper. My suggestion to you is to talk to them. I didn’t have anything to do with that ad and live in another state. Perhaps it is better for you to engage them. I do believe that Mark, the elders, and the Quail congregation have chosen to go in the wrong direction, creating division and compromising the truth.

The vision of the Restoration Movement was not ecumenical. The vision of the Restoration was not ecumenical (join hands but stay in error). The vision of the Restoration Movement was not to develop new, self-made religion. The vision of the Restoration Movement was unite believers in the truth. Before Jesus prayed for unity, he prayed for his disciples to be sanctified (set apart) in the truth.

The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) urges believers to be trained so that they may “observe all things whatsoever I have commanded.” This is a process that the Lord wants observed. It is clear from Scripture that people grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord (2 Peter 3:18). But there is a point of maturity which Christians do reach, a functional maturity where they by practice can discern right from wrong (Heb. 5:12-14; Eph. 4:11-16).

The Lord expected Thyatira and Smyrna to discipline the false teaching among them (Revelation) and rebuked them for their toleration of error. Error is a salvation issue (James 5:19-20), and the mature should train the immature and watch for their souls to keep them from straying.

As for instrumental music, I will happy to point to my study at http://www.God-answers.org. Go to online tools. I will also offer my book, “Let All the Earth Keep Silence” at the Seminar.

kindly,
Phil

But by the end of his argument, he’s concluded that the leadership of a church always violates Biblical teaching on worship “knowingly.” No one disagrees honestly!

Implicitly, Sanders is saying that he knows his view is correct. He allows no possibility that his logic and his inferences are flawed. That is a dangerous assumption to make.

1Co 8:2-3 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.