Searching for The Third Way: The Trinity

three-thumb.jpgJust to illustrate the nature of Third Ways, let’s start with a familiar example: the Trinity. I’m not going to say much new here, just point out how the Trinity exemplifies Third Way solutions.

You see, the Trinity is the classic Third Way. One side argues that there is just one God. We are monotheists, not polytheists!

Another side argues that the Bible declares Jesus, the Spirit, and God are all divine. There are, therefore, three divine beings.

The two sides wrangle back and forth, pointing out the verses that support their views. And neither considers that there might be a third possibility. Indeed, when someone mentions that perhaps they are both right, both scoff. Logic demands that there be but one or three — not both one and three!

This doctrinal dispute greatly troubled the early church. Emperor Constantine was so concerned that he called the first church council to decide the issue, held in Nicea, and resulting in the Nicene Creed. The council famously found that God has one “essence” but three “persons.” And this became the orthodox, accepted view.

But many believers rejected the Nicene Creed. It was too illogical. It didn’t fit the simple, Platonic categories the Greek mind insisted on.

The doctrine of the Trinity remains a problem today. Many a skeptic has challenged Christianity because of the supposed logical incoherence of the Trinitarianism. It’s either three or it’s one!

Christians typically respond by declaring the concept a matter of faith. Yes, it makes no sense. It’s illogical. But just believe! Obviously, the more analytical, thoughtful types often find this entirely unpersuasive.

Now, for me, the “just believe” position is fine for those who can. But for the logicians among us — as I sometimes fancy myself — well, I just need a real, honest-to-God answer.

I’ll offer two.

Some years ago, when driving to the beach, one of my sons asked about this God-in-three-persons thing. I told him I’d explain it when we got to the beach. Yes, I said, it’s entirely possible and entirely logical for God to be both three and one at once.

When we arrived, we walked out to the wet sand. We sat down and I used a finger to dig three parallel holes in the sand. How many holes? I asked. He said three.

I then reached down and connected all three with a horizontal shaft. It looked something like this (try to imagine it in three-dimensions):

trinity.jpg

Now, I asked my son, how many holes are there? One or three?

He puzzled over it for a while. And then he laughed. “Neither. Or both. I don’t know!”

That’s right, I said. If you say three, I’ll point out that they’re all connected. If I pour water in one, the other fills up! If you say one, I’ll point out the three entrances.

You see, even in nature, words like “one” and “three” represent extreme simplifications of reality — a reality that often doesn’t lend itself to such simplification. Some things in this world have characteristics of both three-ness and one-ness.

I held up my hand, with my fingers spread. I asked, how many?

He said, “Five.”

Really?

“Well, there are five fingers.”

How many hands?

“One.”

And so, how many?

“One and five. Both. My head hurts!”

Brilliant philosophers demand a single number to describe a complex thing. They are being simple minded, constrained by false categories that could be seen as inadequate if they’d just look at their hands.

Imagine the nature of a spiritual being, bigger and older than the universe. You can’t. Our brains aren’t wired to imagine such things. And so we try to reduce God to something familiar. Like a number.

Now, for those few readers that are familiar with the wave-particle duality of light, the same conclusion can be found there. Photons (the smallest pieces of light) act simultaneously as particles and as waves. They defy common sense. Indeed, nothing in our experience behaves the way subatomic particles behave.

Here’s the point: matter, at its most essential level, can be two things at once. It can be both a wave and a particle at exactly the same time. It can be polarized horizontally and vertically at the same time. It can exist in mutually contradictory states simultaneously, until someone observes it. Then it must take on one form or the other.

The Trinity is not the same as this — but it is like this. God exists in both a one-person and a three-person state simultaneously. This is contrary to common sense and experience, but very much like the natural world that God made as its most essential level — that is, it’s the essence of existence.

Conclusions

You likely were a Trinitarian before reading this post. But I hope this has helped you see the nature of Third Way thinking. By rejecting the false choice (false dichotomy) of one or three and instead being willing to investigate the nature of one-and-three-ness (Triunity), we gain a deeper, better understanding of God himself.

We refuse to cop out and demand “just believe!” Rather, we should try to get outside conventional patterns of thought and look for new, Biblically sound solutions to ancient problems.

On the other hand, we find ourselves peering through a darkened glass. We can see how it’s possible to be both three and one, but we don’t really, deeply understand God’s triunity.

Our faith is strengthened, because we no longer find ourselves having to believe the impossible true. Rather, we believe the possible — but without understanding it all that well. Which is how things are when it comes to God.

PS — The picture at the top of the page is an illustration of three quarks. Quarks also have this strange ability to be more than one way at once. They are one and they are three. You see, three quarks make up either a proton or a neutron. And quarks never act individually. They always bind with two others. At least, that’s how it’s been since the first moments of the universe’s existence — and in a few atom smashers that simulate those conditions. Actually, the quarks change and sort of blend into and out of existence within the proton or neutron, and the proton or neutron remains unaffected! You really can’t draw a picture or visualize it. It’s just too weird.

Profile photo of Jay Guin

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
This entry was posted in Searching for a Third Way, Uncategorized and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

31 Responses to Searching for The Third Way: The Trinity

  1. Tim Tracey says:

    Hi Jay. I like how you used your illustrations.

    It occurred to me that, using simple logic God is all powerful, therefore infinite.

    Infinity/3 = infinity. So the Father, the Son and the Spirit can each be distinct persons, yet each be infinite and fully God.

    Perhaps you've heard this logic before. If not, then I hope it is useful for you.

    Tim Tracey
    West Hartford, CT (Greater Hartford Church of Christ)

  2. Alan says:

    People have used analogies to explain the Trinity for centuries. These analogies sometimes satisfy our limited minds (and sometimes not), but they probably don't come close to capturing the essence of God.

    Some people think you either have to be Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian. I think there is a third way. 😉 Just say what the scriptures say, and admit we don't really know how to reconcile all the bits and pieces we are given.

  3. I like Alan's observation about how often we don't want to admit to what we cannot explain.

    Personally, I've characterized the "trinity" issue about God this way: There is one God, but he has chosen to present himself to us in three ways because of our limited ability to comprehend him — thus, we are presented (in a very mystical way) with the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

    Each manifestation of God dominating a distinct "phase" of our interaction with God. Under the Old Covenant, God is presented as the patriarchal Father; today God is presented as the ever present Spirit; and Jesus' human manifestation was the transition between the two.

    Maybe it's just that I can get my head around that idea — at least a little.

    Of course all of this is off the real point of your post — but it's only a friendly diversion.

  4. David Guin says:

    I like the Third Way approach of the Eastern Orthodox church. Rather than using labels such as trinitarian or unitarian, they see the Father, Son and Spirit as engaged in a "Divine Dance" to which we are invited!

    Think of dancers whose movements are so synchronized and harmonious, with such exquisite beauty, that they seem to be one (sort of like quarks but prettier). But the real beauty is that we are invited to participate in the "perichoresis" or "mutual indwelling" within this divine dance.

  5. Jay Guin says:

    Alan,

    You are very true to the teachings of Alexander Campbell. And that works for lots of people. It doesn't work for me. It's just the way God made my mind (I've got blame someone!) I can't believe something that doesn't make sense to me. I don't have to fully understand it, but it can't seem irrational — because God is a rational God. Fortunately, not everyone is like me. Anyway, this is why I worry about stuff like this.

    Tim,

    I have an article coming in several weeks all about infinity and God and the creation. You may be the only reader who'll like it — but it'll be right up your alley!

    David H,

    There are theologians who agree with you, but I've never felt good about that explanation. I mean, how does Jesus' baptism fit into it? There we see all three persons present at once.

    David G,

    You know that dancing's a sin! How can God be dancing in heaven? The next thing you know, you'll say they play instruments in heaven!!

    (I'm going have to read more about this one. Very interesting.)

  6. laymond says:

    Jay, actually a finger is an extension of the hand, If you get a finger severed is that hand still a hand, and do you call the severed finger a hand as well. Not a very convincing analogy, God is not made up of parts.
    When Jesus was on earth physically apart from the Father, was he still God, or a severed finger. "Why have you forsaken me"

  7. pilgrim says:

    Thomas said, "My Lord and My God" while Jesus was on earth and Jesus didn't rebuke him or correct him.

    The Father and the Son are both GOD, yet they are ONE as Jesus explains in John 17.

    Paul makes the comparison to marriage. Husband and wife are ONE FLESH. One? Really? I see two people. God says they are ONE.

    But what is your fear Laymond if someone doesn't have complete understanding of the mystery of the nature of God? What practical ways will someone's life be different if they believed precisely as you?

  8. laymond says:

    Pilgrim, Lets ask Paul why we should know the God we serve. and see the advise given the men of Athens, on Mars' hill.

    Acts:17:21: (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
    22: Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
    23: For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
    24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26: And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27: That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
    29: Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    (by that man whom he hath ordained )

  9. laymond says:

    You see Pilgrim, worshiping in ignorance is not acceptable
    God does no longer accept worship with a glancing blow, it has to be directed, directly to him and no other beside him.
    because there is no other gods beside him. as the bible plainly stated.
    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

  10. Anonymous says:

    We worship one God in Trinity.

    Gen. 1:2 “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Genesis 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

    Genesis 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

    Psalm 110:1 “The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

    Isaiah 6:3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    Isaiah 6:8 “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “ Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

    Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

    Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

    Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

    Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    John1:1-2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.”

    John 7:37-39 “On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

    John 8:57-58 “Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 14:15-18 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

    Romans 8:9-10 ‘But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

    Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

    Romans 8:27 “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

    Romans 9:5 “Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

    Romans 15:30 “Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me.”

    1 Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

    1 Corinthians 12:11 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”

    2 Corinthians 13:14 “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

  11. pilgrim says:

    Laymond, So if I worship the man in heaven–Jesus–as God, then you feel like Father is slighted? Is that your gist?

  12. laymond says:

    Anon, common sense tells us that this statement alone tells us the three are not one,
    2 Corinthians 13:14 “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”
    It plainly draws a line of separation between the three.
    and the following sets The father alone at the top.

    Ex:20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Ex:34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

    Isa:43:11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isa:44:6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isa:44:8: Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa:45:5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

  13. Anonymous says:

    Funny you completely avioded the other verses that show us the Trinity and that Jesus is God.

  14. laymond says:

    pilgrim, why not let the scriptures answer your last question.

    Ex:34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

    what do you think? I think he don't like sharing.

  15. pilgrim says:

    So I'm sorry Lamond, I didn't catch your response: did you say how many people are in a marriage? Is that two or one?

  16. Anonymous says:

    Laymond, what is your take on Romans 9:5, “Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

  17. laymond says:

    Anon, I ignored them because you didn't quote any, you show me one place where the word trinity is in the bible, or where Jesus said "I am God" then you will have an argument .

    I have given many where God said he is alone at the top.

  18. laymond says:

    pilgrim, it takes two to have a marriage, without two there can be no marriage. you make my point for me although husband and wife are called one, we can plainly see there are two,except in unison/united. now how can there be three equal beings within the godhead without there being three gods.

  19. Anonymous says:

    The verses you ignored show the trinity of God, and Jesus did say He is God and the people got angry at that and wanted to stone Him.

    John 8:57-58 “Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”

    I really would like to know your take on Romans 9:5 “Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

  20. pilgrim says:

    Alone at the top is a given. Paul clearly states that God is the head of Christ. But you are taking it a step further than that… but here is your verse….

    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

    And they wanted to stone him because they KNEW what he was claiming for himself.

    That's all I have to say Lamond. It is clear that you have a hobby horse like Tim Archer says, and you want to make sure everyone knows you are right. I'd suggest leaving the blog sites alone and go love your neighbor. 🙂

  21. pilgrim says:

    Last point, if Father is IN the son and son is IN the Father, where does that leave your misguided theology? (John 17)

  22. Anonymous says:

    Laymond please put a comment on here and list these verses and under each verse put your take on it.

    Gen. 1:2 “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Genesis 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

    Genesis 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

    Psalm 110:1 “The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

    Isaiah 6:3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    Isaiah 6:8 “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “ Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

    Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

    Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

    Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

    Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    John1:1-2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.”

    John 7:37-39 “On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

    John 8:57-58 “Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 14:15-18 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

    Romans 8:9-10 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

    Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

    Romans 8:27 “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

    Romans 9:5 “Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

    Romans 15:30 “Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me.”

    1 Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

    1 Corinthians 12:11 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”

    2 Corinthians 13:14 “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

  23. laymond says:

    Anon, regarding Romans 9:5 –Anon, lets look at Romans 9 through the eves of the NLV. That is pretty much my thoughts on it.

    Romans 9: 1-5
    In the presence of Christ, I speak with utter truthfulness–I do not lie–and my conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm that what I am saying is true.

    My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief

    for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters.* I would be willing to be forever cursed–cut off from Christ!–if that would save them.

    They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's special children.* God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave his law to them. They have the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

    Their ancestors were great people of God, and Christ himself was a Jew as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.*

    The only time Christ is mentioned in vs 5 is to say he was a Jew in human nature, it certainly does not say Jesus is God. “he is God “ is referring to GOD.

  24. laymond says:

    Anon, I will answer as many as you do after you give your take on what was written in the old testament about God being one.

    seems you want answers without answering.
    Ex:20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Ex:34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

    Isa:43:11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isa:44:6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isa:44:8: Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa:45:5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

  25. Anonymous says:

    Laymond, I do not like to use versions that are more paraphrases. From what you quoted Jesus is God, “And he is God, who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.”

    And I already told you that I do worship one God in Trinity, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    You are denying that Jesus is God, you are denying that there is one God in Trinity, that is why I ask you to please put a comment on here and list these verses and under each verse put your take on it.

    Gen. 1:2 “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Genesis 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

    Genesis 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

    Psalm 110:1 “The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

    Isaiah 6:3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    Isaiah 6:8 “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “ Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

    Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

    Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

    Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

    Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    John1:1-2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.”

    John 7:37-39 “On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

    John 8:57-58 “Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 14:15-18 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

    Romans 8:9-10 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

    Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

    Romans 8:27 “Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

    Romans 9:5 “Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

    Romans 15:30 “Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me.”

    1 Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

    1 Corinthians 12:11 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”

    2 Corinthians 13:14 “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

  26. pilgrim says:

    I'm not really sure you read Jay's original post Laymond, but the answer really is BOTH CAMPS are right. Just because that makes no sense to our rational minds doesn't mean it isn't the REALITY. Can you comprehend ETERNITY? I can't either.

    I'd suggest reading Job 40 and focus on being a worshiper of the unBoxable mystery that He is. He can be KNOWN and LOVED but NOT figured out.

    The LORD said to Job: “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”
    Then Job answered the LORD:
    “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
    I put my hand over my mouth.

  27. laymond says:

    pilgrim, and anonymous, if you wish to contact me by e-mail I will send you a two hour discussion conducted by Dr. Anthony Buzzard on this very subject. e-mail me at .

    laymond@suddenlink.net

    and ask for the video on (the human Jesus)

    God bless.

  28. pilgrim says:

    I really don't care what you believe Laymond, but I DO CARE how you LIVE… and my guess is that you don't have many deep loving spiritual relationships that are overflowing with fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold and that your life isn't overflowing with Holiness and deep worship and love of God. If you REALLY do, then I eat crow and admit that maybe you are on to something. Other than that, I have no interest in what Mr. Buzzard has to say. For myself, I do have many deep loving spiritual relationships that are overflowing with fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold and by God's mercy, my life is overflowing with Holiness and deep worship and love of God. And Jesus, the son of man AND the Son of God is my God and so is My Father and so is the Spirit. And they live inside me and I IN THEM.

  29. eric says:

    I’m still thinking this one out but just thought I’d put it out there. So what if when God decided to make creation, He decided to put Himself inside and outside. The Person inside (Jesus) experiencing time and creation as we do. The Father being wherever He pleases inside or out. A great way for God to be able to empathize with those inside creation. May explain why Jesus didn’t know the time of the second coming, And why Jesus can intercede so well for us.

  30. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Eric,

    I think that’s pretty much right.

  31. laymond says:

    The LORD said to Job: “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”

    The people who argue that God is three persons need to explain to God just who he is. he seems confused.
    Isa:43:11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    Isa:45:5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Leave a Reply