Comments on: Churches of Christ in Decline? Data Points http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:11:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Doug http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-34638 Doug Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:49:32 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-34638 Posting continued... Before I left last year I talked to the preacher and asked him what he thought was causing the growth they were experiencing. He said "we began to see peoples lives being changed" and that it semed that growth led to more growth. I came back to my traditional Church of Christ. Last Sunday was my first Sunday back and I have to say the difference between the two Churches was pretty sobering. The spirit seemed lacking, the music was uninspiring, the happiness was several levels lower. I couldn't help but miss my winter Church. Jay, why did I have to split this into 3 comments in order for it to be accepted? Posting continued… Before I left last year I talked to the preacher and asked him what he thought was causing the growth they were experiencing. He said "we began to see peoples lives being changed" and that it semed that growth led to more growth.

I came back to my traditional Church of Christ. Last Sunday was my first Sunday back and I have to say the difference between the two Churches was pretty sobering. The spirit seemed lacking, the music was uninspiring, the happiness was several levels lower. I couldn't help but miss my winter Church.

Jay, why did I have to split this into 3 comments in order for it to be accepted?

]]> By: Doug http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-34637 Doug Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:48:25 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-34637 Posting continued.... The music was instumental, mostly electric guitars, synthesizers, drums... standard rock and roll although one Sunday the music was more acoutstic. I read the Sunday bulletin and discovered that there was no "order of service" in it. The bulletin was more about what was happening in the Church the next week. And there was a lot going on during the week with class offering and youth events and life groups, etc. The order of service varied from week to week...sometimes a lot of singing first and sometimes the bulk of the singing was at the end of services. But, every week there were prayers, communion, offerings, and an invitation for individuals to state their fatih in Jesus Christ. And yes, women did help serve communion and take up offerings and sometimes when the occasion was right talked to the Church about their Christian journey. Posting continued…. The music was instumental, mostly electric guitars, synthesizers, drums… standard rock and roll although one Sunday the music was more acoutstic. I read the Sunday bulletin and discovered that there was no "order of service" in it. The bulletin was more about what was happening in the Church the next week. And there was a lot going on during the week with class offering and youth events and life groups, etc. The order of service varied from week to week…sometimes a lot of singing first and sometimes the bulk of the singing was at the end of services. But, every week there were prayers, communion, offerings, and an invitation for individuals to state their fatih in Jesus Christ. And yes, women did help serve communion and take up offerings and sometimes when the occasion was right talked to the Church about their Christian journey.

]]> By: Doug http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-34636 Doug Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:47:19 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-34636 This past winter I worshipped with the New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte Florida. It is a restructured Church and was formerly known as !st Christian Church. It has had significant growth since it was restructured and has more than doubled in size in the past 3 or 4 years. The first thing I noticed when I entered the Church was there was just a very happy spirit in the building. People were laughing and happy and very quick to greet each other and visitors. The next thing I noticed was the diversity of the Church... there were young and old, black and white (and all the colors in between). I also noticed a good spirit during worship, people were clapping and moving with the music... they were engaged and not just sitting there. The service itself was pretty laid back... the preacher wasn't dressed in a suit and didn't have a pulpet to stand behind, just a music stand and a stool to sit/lean upon. This past winter I worshipped with the New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte Florida. It is a restructured Church and was formerly known as !st Christian Church. It has had significant growth since it was restructured and has more than doubled in size in the past 3 or 4 years.

The first thing I noticed when I entered the Church was there was just a very happy spirit in the building. People were laughing and happy and very quick to greet each other and visitors. The next thing I noticed was the diversity of the Church… there were young and old, black and white (and all the colors in between). I also noticed a good spirit during worship, people were clapping and moving with the music… they were engaged and not just sitting there. The service itself was pretty laid back… the preacher wasn't dressed in a suit and didn't have a pulpet to stand behind, just a music stand and a stool to sit/lean upon.

]]> By: Stone-Campbell Web Updates–May 11, 2008 « John Mark Hicks Ministries http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2487 Stone-Campbell Web Updates–May 11, 2008 « John Mark Hicks Ministries Sun, 11 May 2008 05:21:48 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2487 [...] Jay Guin has begun a series entitled Amazing Grace/Churches of Christ in Decline?: Rescuing the Churches of Christ. Some of the background for this series is available in one of his previous posts. [...] [...] Jay Guin has begun a series entitled Amazing Grace/Churches of Christ in Decline?: Rescuing the Churches of Christ. Some of the background for this series is available in one of his previous posts. [...]

]]> By: Joe Baggett http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2486 Joe Baggett Fri, 09 May 2008 19:07:43 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2486 It is important to remember that evangelism is only a part of the mission, not the mission itself. Our mission is to make disciples of all people. There are many things that roll up into that mission and we (churches of Christ) generally do not understand that mission or have a firm grip on the cultural perspective to carry out that mission. Our ethnocentric assumption about evangelism is to get someone to sit down to Bible study where we will show them all the right verses and convince them to be baptized. This paradigm of evangelism was mainly developed by default to reach mainline Protestants and rarely Catholics who already saw the Bible as an authority and convince them that the church of Christ was the “right way”. Back in the 40s-60s there were very few un-churched people. So if you were going to grow a religious movement you had better be able to win a doctrinal argument; then you won the person. Now if you “win” a doctrinal argument you loose the person. May I suggest that we need to begin honest dialogue with people first before pushing them into a Bible study? Ask what they think about God and why, do not judge, just listen. Let them see that you genuinely care about them will be their friend whether they jump into a Bible study right away or not. Have them over to your house to eat, get to know them. Ask them what they think about the Bible and what the reasons are for their beliefs and views. Be willing to develop a dialogue not a discussion and not a monologue, there is a big difference. Many people have come to faith in Christ simply by seeing the kindness or love in the life of a person that claims to follow Him. Understand that many people are on a spiritual journey and are seeking truth but are very skeptical of formal organized religion and for good reason. Did you ever wonder why in the letters to the seven churches in Asia in minor (Revelation) Jesus never mentioned things by which we measure church growth such as baptism, or attendance, or contribution? Yet Jesus spoke to the heart of his mission as he addressed the spiritual problems and thinking problems such as no need for God in the Laodicea. It is important to remember that evangelism is only a part of the mission, not the mission itself. Our mission is to make disciples of all people. There are many things that roll up into that mission and we (churches of Christ) generally do not understand that mission or have a firm grip on the cultural perspective to carry out that mission. Our ethnocentric assumption about evangelism is to get someone to sit down to Bible study where we will show them all the right verses and convince them to be baptized. This paradigm of evangelism was mainly developed by default to reach mainline Protestants and rarely Catholics who already saw the Bible as an authority and convince them that the church of Christ was the “right way”. Back in the 40s-60s there were very few un-churched people. So if you were going to grow a religious movement you had better be able to win a doctrinal argument; then you won the person. Now if you “win” a doctrinal argument you loose the person. May I suggest that we need to begin honest dialogue with people first before pushing them into a Bible study? Ask what they think about God and why, do not judge, just listen. Let them see that you genuinely care about them will be their friend whether they jump into a Bible study right away or not. Have them over to your house to eat, get to know them. Ask them what they think about the Bible and what the reasons are for their beliefs and views. Be willing to develop a dialogue not a discussion and not a monologue, there is a big difference. Many people have come to faith in Christ simply by seeing the kindness or love in the life of a person that claims to follow Him. Understand that many people are on a spiritual journey and are seeking truth but are very skeptical of formal organized religion and for good reason.
Did you ever wonder why in the letters to the seven churches in Asia in minor (Revelation) Jesus never mentioned things by which we measure church growth such as baptism, or attendance, or contribution? Yet Jesus spoke to the heart of his mission as he addressed the spiritual problems and thinking problems such as no need for God in the Laodicea.

]]> By: Alan http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2485 Alan Fri, 09 May 2008 18:25:26 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2485 Hi Nick, I guess I touched a nerve. My point was merely that to get the "church plant" results you need to have every member evangelizing. Roland, I'm 100% with you on the point about the needs of those already in the flock. The Great Commission had two parts: 1) Go make disciples of all nations; and 2) teach them to obey everything. Right at the top of the list of things to teach them is to love one another. So, in carrying out the second part of the Great Commission, the needs of every member should be abundantly met. Hi Nick,

I guess I touched a nerve. My point was merely that to get the "church plant" results you need to have every member evangelizing.

Roland,

I'm 100% with you on the point about the needs of those already in the flock. The Great Commission had two parts: 1) Go make disciples of all nations; and 2) teach them to obey everything. Right at the top of the list of things to teach them is to love one another. So, in carrying out the second part of the Great Commission, the needs of every member should be abundantly met.

]]> By: Vox Bloguli » Eppur Si Muove: Mark Elrod’s Personal Blog http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2479 Vox Bloguli » Eppur Si Muove: Mark Elrod’s Personal Blog Fri, 02 May 2008 13:19:31 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2479 [...] One in Jesus: Church of Christ in Decline? Data Point [...] [...] One in Jesus: Church of Christ in Decline? Data Point [...]

]]> By: Roland http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2484 Roland Fri, 02 May 2008 11:32:54 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2484 Nancy, yep. Couldn't agree more. The "Pop Culture" definition is perfect. Many times there is more emphasis put on relationships than the word. Not that relationships are not important but, many times, every single discussion or class is about things like that with none on actual study of the word. Alan, I agree that we are all evangelists and we should be. That being said however, I feel that too many times we focus on reaching out and neglect our own flock and the needs there. We have hurting people and families that sometimes get ignored. I totally agree with the mass marketing worship service thing. Let's focus more not on the church of Christ or on the church but, simply, on Christ. Nancy, yep. Couldn't agree more. The "Pop Culture" definition is perfect. Many times there is more emphasis put on relationships than the word. Not that relationships are not important but, many times, every single discussion or class is about things like that with none on actual study of the word.

Alan, I agree that we are all evangelists and we should be. That being said however, I feel that too many times we focus on reaching out and neglect our own flock and the needs there. We have hurting people and families that sometimes get ignored.

I totally agree with the mass marketing worship service thing. Let's focus more not on the church of Christ or on the church but, simply, on Christ.

]]> By: Nick Gill http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2483 Nick Gill Fri, 02 May 2008 10:30:43 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2483 Alan, "every member as an evangelist" BCV, please? I understand your desire. Every member SHOULD BE a disciple (which is what I think you mean by "fully invested in their walk with God"). But the New Testament does not demand personal evangelism like you are suggesting. The closest I can find is in Acts 8:4, and neither the rest of Acts nor the rest of the NT calls upon believers to do this, and there is no wholesale reprimand for not doing so. Eph 4:11 suggests, in fact, that NOT ALL members are expected to be evangelists. All disciples should be following Peter's instruction: BE PREPARED to give an answer. All disciples should be striving to live such lives that will inspire such questions. If we aren't being asked, this should be a warning that everyone thinks we're just like them! Part of our problem in churches of Christ, I think, is our longstanding tradition of teaching our members that evangelism = Q&A or argument (IE Ivan Stewart's OBS). We must eventually get people into the Bible; but we (God through us) have to get them to WANT to get into the Bible first. Our anti-denominational forms of "evangelism" have to change to address the post-biblical world where we live. If we are overwhelming the people around us with love, they will want to know why. When we invite them into our homes and tell them what Christ has done for us, they'll want to know more. THEN, we can introduce them to Jesus in the Word. We (I) have got to start opening our (my) homes to more than just the church (Heb 13:2). In a culture of isolation and fear, opening our homes will be far more likely to invite curiosity than many other tactics we might pursue. Alan,

"every member as an evangelist"

BCV, please?

I understand your desire. Every member SHOULD BE a disciple (which is what I think you mean by "fully invested in their walk with God").

But the New Testament does not demand personal evangelism like you are suggesting. The closest I can find is in Acts 8:4, and neither the rest of Acts nor the rest of the NT calls upon believers to do this, and there is no wholesale reprimand for not doing so. Eph 4:11 suggests, in fact, that NOT ALL members are expected to be evangelists.

All disciples should be following Peter's instruction: BE PREPARED to give an answer. All disciples should be striving to live such lives that will inspire such questions. If we aren't being asked, this should be a warning that everyone thinks we're just like them!

Part of our problem in churches of Christ, I think, is our longstanding tradition of teaching our members that evangelism = Q&A or argument (IE Ivan Stewart's OBS).

We must eventually get people into the Bible; but we (God through us) have to get them to WANT to get into the Bible first. Our anti-denominational forms of "evangelism" have to change to address the post-biblical world where we live.

If we are overwhelming the people around us with love, they will want to know why. When we invite them into our homes and tell them what Christ has done for us, they'll want to know more. THEN, we can introduce them to Jesus in the Word.

We (I) have got to start opening our (my) homes to more than just the church (Heb 13:2). In a culture of isolation and fear, opening our homes will be far more likely to invite curiosity than many other tactics we might pursue.

]]> By: Alan http://oneinjesus.info/2008/04/churches-of-christ-in-decline-data-points/#comment-2482 Alan Fri, 02 May 2008 09:01:15 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1101#comment-2482 Jay, I'm not sure if this will help... But I think the first ingredient required is for the members to be fully invested in their walk with God, including their full participation as part of the body, the church. It's not just one of the things they do, but instead it is what they live for. They have to love their relationship with God and with God's family. I think you have to abandon the idea of mass marketing. It needs to be person to person evangelism -- every member as an evangelist. The term "evangelist" has been adopted for secular use to describe someone who is such a "true believer" in something that they promote it with zeal and sincerity wherever they go. In churches, the term doesn't always mean that any more. We need to get back to that. And I think we need to abandon the idea of marketing the type of service, the music, the activities, the facility, etc. That's not the right message. The message is the gospel -- sin, repentance, forgiveness through Jesus, discipleship, and lordship. Jay,

I'm not sure if this will help… But I think the first ingredient required is for the members to be fully invested in their walk with God, including their full participation as part of the body, the church. It's not just one of the things they do, but instead it is what they live for. They have to love their relationship with God and with God's family.

I think you have to abandon the idea of mass marketing. It needs to be person to person evangelism — every member as an evangelist. The term "evangelist" has been adopted for secular use to describe someone who is such a "true believer" in something that they promote it with zeal and sincerity wherever they go. In churches, the term doesn't always mean that any more. We need to get back to that.

And I think we need to abandon the idea of marketing the type of service, the music, the activities, the facility, etc. That's not the right message. The message is the gospel — sin, repentance, forgiveness through Jesus, discipleship, and lordship.

]]>