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	<title>Comments on: The Good and Bad of Spiritual Formation (Being Formed within God&#8217;s Mission)</title>
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		<title>By: Keith Brenton</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/05/on-spiritual-formation-and-making-disciples/#comment-2781</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Brenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 06:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jay, some of the folks who are knocking themselves out to serve others - not to be good people, but because there are so many unmet needs - often benefit the most from spiritual disciplines, both private and communal. 
 
Many do so in an environment where they receive little support and great criticism, even from among those who purport to follow Christ. 
 
Drawing closer to God through spiritual disciplines - and especially with others - helps prevent &quot;Elijah syndrome,&quot; that myopic conviction that &quot;I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, some of the folks who are knocking themselves out to serve others &#8211; not to be good people, but because there are so many unmet needs &#8211; often benefit the most from spiritual disciplines, both private and communal. </p>
<p>Many do so in an environment where they receive little support and great criticism, even from among those who purport to follow Christ. </p>
<p>Drawing closer to God through spiritual disciplines &#8211; and especially with others &#8211; helps prevent &quot;Elijah syndrome,&quot; that myopic conviction that &quot;I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/05/on-spiritual-formation-and-making-disciples/#comment-2780</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 12:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1149#comment-2780</guid>
		<description>Nick, 
 
My concern with spiritual disciplines isn&#039;t so much that they are self-focused as they are individualistic rather than corporate disciplines. And I hope I&#039;m wrong. 
 
Look at this from the standpoint of church leadership. What does the church struggle with as it tries to be the church that Jesus calls it to be? 
 
Well, one problem is a lack of commitment, driven in part by a consumer mindset. Members are more concerned with services received than the opportunities to serve within the church. 
 
This makes it hard even to &quot;do church&quot; -- to staff the nursery, to get the prayers led, to find children&#039;s teachers. When the church tries to become outreach oriented, the struggle is even greater. The needs are so great, and yet we have so few volunteers. 
 
We have a huge need for adults to mentor kids who want to attend our church from a very poor part of town. We ask for volunteers and we get none. 
 
Now, Willard says we aren&#039;t teaching people to be obey Jesus in all things -- and I think he&#039;s right. He says the solution is spiritual disciplines, and I&#039;d love for him to have found the solution! 
 
But as I read the literature, there&#039;s next to nothing about serving brothers and sisters in the church or participating in church-sponsored efforts. Rather, it&#039;s all very individualistic, focusing on a personal relationship with God but not on using one&#039;s talents within the body. 
 
You see, I don&#039;t see Christianity as primarily about our being good people. I think it&#039;s more about our being on a mission together, and I don&#039;t see the disciplines as being about  that. But, again, I&#039;d love to be proven wrong. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, </p>
<p>My concern with spiritual disciplines isn&#039;t so much that they are self-focused as they are individualistic rather than corporate disciplines. And I hope I&#039;m wrong. </p>
<p>Look at this from the standpoint of church leadership. What does the church struggle with as it tries to be the church that Jesus calls it to be? </p>
<p>Well, one problem is a lack of commitment, driven in part by a consumer mindset. Members are more concerned with services received than the opportunities to serve within the church. </p>
<p>This makes it hard even to &quot;do church&quot; &#8212; to staff the nursery, to get the prayers led, to find children&#039;s teachers. When the church tries to become outreach oriented, the struggle is even greater. The needs are so great, and yet we have so few volunteers. </p>
<p>We have a huge need for adults to mentor kids who want to attend our church from a very poor part of town. We ask for volunteers and we get none. </p>
<p>Now, Willard says we aren&#039;t teaching people to be obey Jesus in all things &#8212; and I think he&#039;s right. He says the solution is spiritual disciplines, and I&#039;d love for him to have found the solution! </p>
<p>But as I read the literature, there&#039;s next to nothing about serving brothers and sisters in the church or participating in church-sponsored efforts. Rather, it&#039;s all very individualistic, focusing on a personal relationship with God but not on using one&#039;s talents within the body. </p>
<p>You see, I don&#039;t see Christianity as primarily about our being good people. I think it&#039;s more about our being on a mission together, and I don&#039;t see the disciplines as being about  that. But, again, I&#039;d love to be proven wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: dell kimberly</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/05/on-spiritual-formation-and-making-disciples/#comment-2779</link>
		<dc:creator>dell kimberly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 17:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In reality if we as congregations or we as Christians are going to make a difference in the world we must begin to focus on the letting Christ live through us and in us.  Rather than being Biblical scholars we need to be Christians searching for people in need of what we have.  When we do this people will see Jesus living through us. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reality if we as congregations or we as Christians are going to make a difference in the world we must begin to focus on the letting Christ live through us and in us.  Rather than being Biblical scholars we need to be Christians searching for people in need of what we have.  When we do this people will see Jesus living through us.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/05/on-spiritual-formation-and-making-disciples/#comment-2778</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 14:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1149#comment-2778</guid>
		<description>I think you might be obsessing over one quote and perhaps missing the overall direction, which is captured in such passages as Romans 12:1-2. 
 
Jesus doesn&#039;t command us to pray or read Scripture, either, Jay. He just ASSUMES that we will. Notice how he speaks of it in the SOM - WHEN you fast, WHEN you pray, WHEN you give to the needy. 
 
The purpose of Spiritual Formation is not self-focused, but God-focused. The Disciplines are ways that we participate with God in the &quot;renovation of our hearts.&quot; The principle of indirection is important here. 
 
&quot;THE PRINCIPLE OF INDIRECTION 
When we engage in the Spiritual Disciplines we are seeking the righteousness of the kingdom of God through &#8220;indirection.&#8221; You see, we cannot by direct effort make ourselves into the kind of people who can live fully alive to God. Only God can accomplish this in us. Only God can incline our heart toward him. Only God can reprogram the deeply ingrained habit patterns of sin that constantly predispose us toward evil and transform them into even more deeply ingrained habit patterns of &#8220;righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit&#8221; (Rom 14:17). And God freely and graciously invites us to participate in this transforming process. But not on our own. 
 
&quot;We do not, for example, become humble merely by trying to become humble. Action on our own would make us all the more proud of our humility. No, we instead train with Spiritual Disciplines appropriate to our need. In this 
particular example that would most surely involve learning numerous acts of service for others which would incline us toward the good of all people. This indirect action will place us&#8212;body, mind, and spirit&#8212;before God as a living 
sacrifice. God then takes this little offering of ourselves and in his time and in his way produces in us things far greater than we could ever ask or think&#8212;in this case a life growing in and overflowing with the grace of humility. It is, to repeat, the righteousness of the kingdom of God by indirection. 
 
WHAT IS A SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE? 
&quot;Now, to move forward in this life we must understand clearly what a Spiritual Discipline is in the first place. A Spiritual Discipline is an intentionally directed action by which we do what we can do in order to receive from God the ability (or power) to do what we cannot do by direct effort. It is not in us, for example, to love our enemies. We might even go out and try very hard to love our enemies, but we will fail miserably. Always. This strength, this power to love our enemies&#8212;that is, to genuinely and unconditionally love those who curse us and spitefully use us&#8212;is simply not within our natural abilities. We cannot do it by ourselves. Ever. 
 
But this fact of life does not mean that we do nothing. Far from it! Instead, by an act of the will we choose to take up disciplines of the spiritual life that we can do.&quot; -from the Renovare Spiritual Formation Study Bible 
 
 
 
I appreciate your military metaphor; let&#039;s examine it a bit. You train a boy for 8-12 weeks, give him a rifle, and put him on a front line. I am not up-to-date on the current statistics, but the Vietnam-era statistics suggested that half of the American infantrymen (not troops in general, but rather actual infantrymen assigned to fight) in Vietnam never engaged the enemy. Why? 
 
They had training. They had equipment. They had opportunity. Why didn&#039;t they fire their weapons at the enemy? 
 
A few were against the war, but most were just plain scared. 
 
Why does this matter? Because the kind of things God commands us to do, we can&#039;t do just by being pointed in the right direction. You&#039;ve quoted some familiar passages from the Sermon on the Mount. Here are some others: 
 
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 
 
But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. 
 
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... 
 
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew) ...Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful (Luke). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you might be obsessing over one quote and perhaps missing the overall direction, which is captured in such passages as <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/romans+12%3A1-2' class='bible-tip bible-tip-romans_12%3A1-2'>Romans 12:1-2</a>. </p>
<p>Jesus doesn&#039;t command us to pray or read Scripture, either, Jay. He just ASSUMES that we will. Notice how he speaks of it in the SOM &#8211; WHEN you fast, WHEN you pray, WHEN you give to the needy. </p>
<p>The purpose of Spiritual Formation is not self-focused, but God-focused. The Disciplines are ways that we participate with God in the &quot;renovation of our hearts.&quot; The principle of indirection is important here. </p>
<p>&quot;THE PRINCIPLE OF INDIRECTION<br />
When we engage in the Spiritual Disciplines we are seeking the righteousness of the kingdom of God through &ldquo;indirection.&rdquo; You see, we cannot by direct effort make ourselves into the kind of people who can live fully alive to God. Only God can accomplish this in us. Only God can incline our heart toward him. Only God can reprogram the deeply ingrained habit patterns of sin that constantly predispose us toward evil and transform them into even more deeply ingrained habit patterns of &ldquo;righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit&rdquo; (<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/romans+14%3A17' class='bible-tip bible-tip-romans_14%3A17'>Rom 14:17</a>). And God freely and graciously invites us to participate in this transforming process. But not on our own. </p>
<p>&quot;We do not, for example, become humble merely by trying to become humble. Action on our own would make us all the more proud of our humility. No, we instead train with Spiritual Disciplines appropriate to our need. In this<br />
particular example that would most surely involve learning numerous acts of service for others which would incline us toward the good of all people. This indirect action will place us&mdash;body, mind, and spirit&mdash;before God as a living<br />
sacrifice. God then takes this little offering of ourselves and in his time and in his way produces in us things far greater than we could ever ask or think&mdash;in this case a life growing in and overflowing with the grace of humility. It is, to repeat, the righteousness of the kingdom of God by indirection. </p>
<p>WHAT IS A SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE?<br />
&quot;Now, to move forward in this life we must understand clearly what a Spiritual Discipline is in the first place. A Spiritual Discipline is an intentionally directed action by which we do what we can do in order to receive from God the ability (or power) to do what we cannot do by direct effort. It is not in us, for example, to love our enemies. We might even go out and try very hard to love our enemies, but we will fail miserably. Always. This strength, this power to love our enemies&mdash;that is, to genuinely and unconditionally love those who curse us and spitefully use us&mdash;is simply not within our natural abilities. We cannot do it by ourselves. Ever. </p>
<p>But this fact of life does not mean that we do nothing. Far from it! Instead, by an act of the will we choose to take up disciplines of the spiritual life that we can do.&quot; -from the Renovare Spiritual Formation Study Bible </p>
<p>I appreciate your military metaphor; let&#039;s examine it a bit. You train a boy for 8-12 weeks, give him a rifle, and put him on a front line. I am not up-to-date on the current statistics, but the Vietnam-era statistics suggested that half of the American infantrymen (not troops in general, but rather actual infantrymen assigned to fight) in Vietnam never engaged the enemy. Why? </p>
<p>They had training. They had equipment. They had opportunity. Why didn&#039;t they fire their weapons at the enemy? </p>
<p>A few were against the war, but most were just plain scared. </p>
<p>Why does this matter? Because the kind of things God commands us to do, we can&#039;t do just by being pointed in the right direction. You&#039;ve quoted some familiar passages from the Sermon on the Mount. Here are some others: </p>
<p>But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. </p>
<p>But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. </p>
<p>But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you&#8230; </p>
<p>You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew) &#8230;Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful (Luke).</p>
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