Comments on: Surprised by Hope: The Identity of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21 http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/surprised-by-hope-the-identity-of-the-new-jerusalem-in-rev-21/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=surprised-by-hope-the-identity-of-the-new-jerusalem-in-rev-21 Thu, 24 May 2012 15:27:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Jerry Starling http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/surprised-by-hope-the-identity-of-the-new-jerusalem-in-rev-21/#comment-3094 Jerry Starling Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:28:41 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1299#comment-3094 Jay, In thinking about the new Jerusalem, you did not mention the allegory of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4:21-31 where the "Jerusalem that is above" represents the new covenant as opposed to the old - that is, the gospel as opposed to the law. I think this fits very nicely into the picture you paint, however. Ephesians 2:6 indicates that already we are sitting with Christ at the right hand of God in the heavenly places. This is while we are alive in Christ, having already taken part in the first resurrection to newness (kainos) of life (Romans 6;4). This is why Paul can say, <blockquote>Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:17</blockquote> Perhaps the metaphors in Revelation are a little mixed, and they may differ a little from similar metaphors used elsewhere. Maybe one reason for this mixing is that there are those who have died and gone on while others will be alive when the Lord returns. In either event, we are all in Christ and will all be part of the great marriage feast in the eschaton. Jay,
In thinking about the new Jerusalem, you did not mention the allegory of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4:21-31 where the "Jerusalem that is above" represents the new covenant as opposed to the old – that is, the gospel as opposed to the law.

I think this fits very nicely into the picture you paint, however.

Ephesians 2:6 indicates that already we are sitting with Christ at the right hand of God in the heavenly places. This is while we are alive in Christ, having already taken part in the first resurrection to newness (kainos) of life (Romans 6;4). This is why Paul can say,

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:17

Perhaps the metaphors in Revelation are a little mixed, and they may differ a little from similar metaphors used elsewhere. Maybe one reason for this mixing is that there are those who have died and gone on while others will be alive when the Lord returns. In either event, we are all in Christ and will all be part of the great marriage feast in the eschaton.

]]> By: Jerry Starling http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/surprised-by-hope-the-identity-of-the-new-jerusalem-in-rev-21/#comment-3093 Jerry Starling Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:16:32 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1299#comment-3093 Jon, Have you considered 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 and Romans 15:20 in thinking about "the foundation of the apostles and prophets"? <blockquote>By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.</blockquote> <blockquote>It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation. </blockquote> It seems to me that "the foundation of the apostles and prophets" is the foundation <b>laid by</b> the apostles and prophets, not the apostles and prophets themselves. Jon,
Have you considered 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 and Romans 15:20 in thinking about "the foundation of the apostles and prophets"?

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.

It seems to me that "the foundation of the apostles and prophets" is the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets, not the apostles and prophets themselves.

]]> By: Jon Shelton http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/surprised-by-hope-the-identity-of-the-new-jerusalem-in-rev-21/#comment-3092 Jon Shelton Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:55:09 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1299#comment-3092 We've been in the process of moving across town, which has prohibited me from responding in full. My main concern with the interpretation that the "New Jerusalem" is Heaven is the fact that the book of Revelation was written to a specific time and place. Now, there are things that are relevant to us, but this book meant a LOT to those that received it. The war is over, the smoke is cleared, and the people of God are the only ones left standing. The victory belongs to the people. All of this time Rome had declared that Caesar was god, the most powerful, and that those who followed after him were the real "saints." Now, after Rome has taken her fall and the people of God are all standing with their leader, the Lamb - the real saints won. Now the Christian can live in a "new atmosphere." The pressure is off, the persecution is over. The persecution suffered from the tyranny of Domitian now fades. That these Christians had suffered through these things - so that the dwelling of God is among men now - would have been comforting in light of everything else they had gone through. Why would Heaven be laid on the foundation stones of the apostles? That to me is something that causes me to question whether it is heaven - because the church as we have it did in fact have apostles as the foundation (not founder) of it. There are other aspects of the description that cause me concern as to this being heaven, and I will do more later - after we get moved of course. We've been in the process of moving across town, which has prohibited me from responding in full. My main concern with the interpretation that the "New Jerusalem" is Heaven is the fact that the book of Revelation was written to a specific time and place. Now, there are things that are relevant to us, but this book meant a LOT to those that received it.
The war is over, the smoke is cleared, and the people of God are the only ones left standing. The victory belongs to the people. All of this time Rome had declared that Caesar was god, the most powerful, and that those who followed after him were the real "saints."
Now, after Rome has taken her fall and the people of God are all standing with their leader, the Lamb – the real saints won. Now the Christian can live in a "new atmosphere." The pressure is off, the persecution is over. The persecution suffered from the tyranny of Domitian now fades.
That these Christians had suffered through these things – so that the dwelling of God is among men now – would have been comforting in light of everything else they had gone through.
Why would Heaven be laid on the foundation stones of the apostles? That to me is something that causes me to question whether it is heaven – because the church as we have it did in fact have apostles as the foundation (not founder) of it. There are other aspects of the description that cause me concern as to this being heaven, and I will do more later – after we get moved of course.

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