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	<title>Comments on: Pagan Christianity and Congregational Autonomy, Part 2</title>
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		<title>By: Charles McLean</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-291347</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles McLean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 04:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-291347</guid>
		<description>Todd, that sounds like real life to me.  Great story.

Unfortunately, what AJ relates sounds more like the Sanhedrin than the Council of Jerusalem.  We fear we might lose our place, whatever that is, however mean and powerless-- just as the Sanhedrin in John 11 worried that they might lose what diminished rule they were alloted by Rome if the Jewish people followed the Messiah.  We like our self-rule; or at least as close to it as we might be able to manage.  Better to be the Senator from a molehill than to serve someone else in a palace, I suppose.  How we got from our example of a Servant King to a scrabbling desire for the most microscopic influence and autonomy, I simply do not know.  This is one of those &quot;base concerns&quot; that troubles me, I suppose.

Todd speaks of true accountability.  I have to confess that the entire concept was foreign to me-- a lifelong member of the CoC, and a full-time preacher-- until I left that denomination.  I learned about it later, and changed dramatically -- but not without considerable resistance, and friction with my Father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, that sounds like real life to me.  Great story.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, what AJ relates sounds more like the Sanhedrin than the Council of Jerusalem.  We fear we might lose our place, whatever that is, however mean and powerless&#8211; just as the Sanhedrin in <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/john+11' class='bible-tip bible-tip-john_11'>John 11</a> worried that they might lose what diminished rule they were alloted by Rome if the Jewish people followed the Messiah.  We like our self-rule; or at least as close to it as we might be able to manage.  Better to be the Senator from a molehill than to serve someone else in a palace, I suppose.  How we got from our example of a Servant King to a scrabbling desire for the most microscopic influence and autonomy, I simply do not know.  This is one of those &#8220;base concerns&#8221; that troubles me, I suppose.</p>
<p>Todd speaks of true accountability.  I have to confess that the entire concept was foreign to me&#8211; a lifelong member of the CoC, and a full-time preacher&#8211; until I left that denomination.  I learned about it later, and changed dramatically &#8212; but not without considerable resistance, and friction with my Father.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Collier</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-291324</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Collier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 03:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-291324</guid>
		<description>When I came to Virginia as a missionary a decade ago our little group had no elders and no one even remotely interested in being so qualified.  I did not wish to work &quot;without a net&quot; so I approached the elders of a congregation to hold me accountable for my ministry.  The folks I was working with went nuts.  How dare I do such a thing?  Well eight years and later and that eldership remembered my request and hired me without even advertising a need for a minister (unique cirsumstances).  Autonomy is over-rated.  Accountability isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I came to Virginia as a missionary a decade ago our little group had no elders and no one even remotely interested in being so qualified.  I did not wish to work &#8220;without a net&#8221; so I approached the elders of a congregation to hold me accountable for my ministry.  The folks I was working with went nuts.  How dare I do such a thing?  Well eight years and later and that eldership remembered my request and hired me without even advertising a need for a minister (unique cirsumstances).  Autonomy is over-rated.  Accountability isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Alabama John</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-291189</link>
		<dc:creator>Alabama John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-291189</guid>
		<description>Charles,
 Afraid of?
 The fear that by banding together in any fashion would lead to head Elders and then progress to a hierarchy like the denominations have.
 This could be a start away from each congregation being independent and that cannot be allowed. Best to stop it before it even begins !
 I have asked at a business meeting that since there is no authorization for a church to remain without Elders that we ask the big church down the road to loan us three until we get some qualified ourselves. They could place membership easily because they actually live closer to us than where they are Elders now.
 This was met with a resounding NO WAY! They had rather have an unauthorized business meeting with sorry folks like me being in effect fill in or substitute elders for which there is no authorization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles,<br />
 Afraid of?<br />
 The fear that by banding together in any fashion would lead to head Elders and then progress to a hierarchy like the denominations have.<br />
 This could be a start away from each congregation being independent and that cannot be allowed. Best to stop it before it even begins !<br />
 I have asked at a business meeting that since there is no authorization for a church to remain without Elders that we ask the big church down the road to loan us three until we get some qualified ourselves. They could place membership easily because they actually live closer to us than where they are Elders now.<br />
 This was met with a resounding NO WAY! They had rather have an unauthorized business meeting with sorry folks like me being in effect fill in or substitute elders for which there is no authorization.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles McLean</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-291127</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles McLean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-291127</guid>
		<description>Jay&#039;s more recent post on this topic brought me back to this.  Jay said something I have a second thought about.  He posted, to my enthusiastic applause, that one reform he would suggest would be that elders in a city come together and function as a team.  He then said that hat the reason that elders in a city cannot come together and function as a single team is that we are &quot;too stubborn, distrustful, and just plain cussed to do it&quot;.  

I cannot argue with this conclusion, but I wonder if this does not bear more reasoned examination.  About what are we so stubborn and distrustful?  Specifically, I mean.  What is it that we have with which no one can be trusted?  IMO, what Jay is describing here is simple fear.  And the first step in addressing fear is to ask, &quot;All right, EXACTLY what is it that you are afraid of?&quot;

Some fears are rational, but can be addressed proactively or correctively.  Some fears are irrational.  And some stated fears are intended to mask other, more base personal concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay&#8217;s more recent post on this topic brought me back to this.  Jay said something I have a second thought about.  He posted, to my enthusiastic applause, that one reform he would suggest would be that elders in a city come together and function as a team.  He then said that hat the reason that elders in a city cannot come together and function as a single team is that we are &#8220;too stubborn, distrustful, and just plain cussed to do it&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I cannot argue with this conclusion, but I wonder if this does not bear more reasoned examination.  About what are we so stubborn and distrustful?  Specifically, I mean.  What is it that we have with which no one can be trusted?  IMO, what Jay is describing here is simple fear.  And the first step in addressing fear is to ask, &#8220;All right, EXACTLY what is it that you are afraid of?&#8221;</p>
<p>Some fears are rational, but can be addressed proactively or correctively.  Some fears are irrational.  And some stated fears are intended to mask other, more base personal concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles McLean</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3288</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles McLean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3288</guid>
		<description>Elders of the church in the city.  Some of us have been calling for this for years.  So glad you mentioned it, Jay. 
 
But you are correct in pointing out a pretty high hurdle, that is acknowledging who &quot;we&quot; are.  We have unfortunately shrunk that pronoun over the years and it needs some letting-out. 
 
I believe that there is a catalyst available for such a thing as you suggest... it is the &quot;restoration&quot; of the work of the apostle in the body of Christ.  But that&#039;s another story... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elders of the church in the city.  Some of us have been calling for this for years.  So glad you mentioned it, Jay. </p>
<p>But you are correct in pointing out a pretty high hurdle, that is acknowledging who &quot;we&quot; are.  We have unfortunately shrunk that pronoun over the years and it needs some letting-out. </p>
<p>I believe that there is a catalyst available for such a thing as you suggest&#8230; it is the &quot;restoration&quot; of the work of the apostle in the body of Christ.  But that&#039;s another story&#8230; </p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3287</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3287</guid>
		<description>I just read the sequel to this book Reimagining Church. It&#039;s great! Better than Pagan Christianity. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read the sequel to this book Reimagining Church. It&#039;s great! Better than Pagan Christianity. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3286</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3286</guid>
		<description>Melina, 
 
I wrote, 
 
 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;If I could make just one reform in our system of autonomy, it would be this: I&#8217;d insist that elderships citywide work together as a single team. They should pray together, study scripture together, go to training classes together, and coordinate church work together. They should help each other, lean on each other, and love each other.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
 
 
&quot;Single team&quot; does not imply hierarchy. It just means working together toward common goals, those goals being set by prayer, study, and conversation, not by a bishop or such like. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melina, </p>
<p>I wrote, </p>
<blockquote><p>If I could make just one reform in our system of autonomy, it would be this: I&rsquo;d insist that elderships citywide work together as a single team. They should pray together, study scripture together, go to training classes together, and coordinate church work together. They should help each other, lean on each other, and love each other.</p></blockquote>
<p>&quot;Single team&quot; does not imply hierarchy. It just means working together toward common goals, those goals being set by prayer, study, and conversation, not by a bishop or such like. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3285</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3285</guid>
		<description>Oops. :oops: It&#039;s all fixed now. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. <img src='http://oneinjesus.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif' alt=':oops:' class='wp-smiley' />  It&#039;s all fixed now. </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3284</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3284</guid>
		<description>LOL You didn&#039;t title this one Part 2 or Continued or anything, so I just had a painful eye-crossing trying to figure out where all my comments went and why none of this looked familiar! :) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL You didn&#039;t title this one Part 2 or Continued or anything, so I just had a painful eye-crossing trying to figure out where all my comments went and why none of this looked familiar! <img src='http://oneinjesus.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
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		<title>By: Melina</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-church-autonomy/#comment-3283</link>
		<dc:creator>Melina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1406#comment-3283</guid>
		<description>Quoting Jay: &lt;&lt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 
 
Very Big Amen to that.  I&#039;d get scared though if the group started appointing officers or presidents or electing/selecting committees- basically trying to become a hierarchy. In fact there should be a conscious effort to avoid that by, for example, rotating any organizing duties by alphabetical order or lot. Or better yet, the elders building relationships one-on-one as a start.  Maybe that&#039;s what you mean, I&#039;m not sure if you mean personal friendships or organized meetings. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoting Jay: &lt;&lt;&gt;&gt;&gt; </p>
<p>Very Big Amen to that.  I&#039;d get scared though if the group started appointing officers or presidents or electing/selecting committees- basically trying to become a hierarchy. In fact there should be a conscious effort to avoid that by, for example, rotating any organizing duties by alphabetical order or lot. Or better yet, the elders building relationships one-on-one as a start.  Maybe that&#039;s what you mean, I&#039;m not sure if you mean personal friendships or organized meetings. </p>
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