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	<title>Comments on: Pagan Christianity and Congregational Autonomy, Part 1</title>
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		<title>By: Gary Cummings</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3264</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3264</guid>
		<description>Melina, 
 
Many theologians and scholars believe that Christ would return either before or by the time of the death of the apostles. 
They did not expect the world to go on another 2,000 years. 
 
Now the last of the apostles died, the Parousia did not happen, Jerusalem along with Israel was destroyed, and the church was dispersed into the world. But the end did not come. 
This is why the Apostolic fathers are important. They had to deal with the delay of the Parousia. Tp paraphrase Gilkey: &quot;Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, and all we got was this [lousey] Church!&quot; 
 
Warren Lewis, probably the most brilliant theologian produced by the Stone-Campbell tradition, stated that the creation of the office af the bishop and even the Pope was by the work and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He may be right. 
 
That being said, I am still a congregationalist, as that best fits what the local body of Christ should be: local ministry and local leadership. We no longer have apostles, as the first century did (unless we accept the office of apostle for now!) 
 
I spent a few years with the Mennonite Church and the churches have overseers outside of the local church. These people are outsiders, who have no true idea of the local church poiltics, and they have to resolve the problem. Actually what I have seen happen is non-resolution of problems-one or the other parties in conflict either shut up or leave. That is not good. 
 
The local eldership is still the best model if we look to the New Testament. If we decide not to look to the New Testament, which may be a viable way, then other paradigms of leadership are available. 
 
Just my random thoughts. 
Thanks and God bless, 
Gary </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melina, </p>
<p>Many theologians and scholars believe that Christ would return either before or by the time of the death of the apostles.<br />
They did not expect the world to go on another 2,000 years. </p>
<p>Now the last of the apostles died, the Parousia did not happen, Jerusalem along with Israel was destroyed, and the church was dispersed into the world. But the end did not come.<br />
This is why the Apostolic fathers are important. They had to deal with the delay of the Parousia. Tp paraphrase Gilkey: &quot;Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, and all we got was this [lousey] Church!&quot; </p>
<p>Warren Lewis, probably the most brilliant theologian produced by the Stone-Campbell tradition, stated that the creation of the office af the bishop and even the Pope was by the work and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He may be right. </p>
<p>That being said, I am still a congregationalist, as that best fits what the local body of Christ should be: local ministry and local leadership. We no longer have apostles, as the first century did (unless we accept the office of apostle for now!) </p>
<p>I spent a few years with the Mennonite Church and the churches have overseers outside of the local church. These people are outsiders, who have no true idea of the local church poiltics, and they have to resolve the problem. Actually what I have seen happen is non-resolution of problems-one or the other parties in conflict either shut up or leave. That is not good. </p>
<p>The local eldership is still the best model if we look to the New Testament. If we decide not to look to the New Testament, which may be a viable way, then other paradigms of leadership are available. </p>
<p>Just my random thoughts.<br />
Thanks and God bless,<br />
Gary </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Cummings</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3263</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3263</guid>
		<description>Spoken like a Southern politician, elder or ....gulp-lawyer! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spoken like a Southern politician, elder or &#8230;.gulp-lawyer! </p>
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		<title>By: Gary Cummings</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3262</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3262</guid>
		<description>A Southern pope, 
I think that had already been tried or at least aspired to by a few editors. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Southern pope,<br />
I think that had already been tried or at least aspired to by a few editors. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3261</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3261</guid>
		<description>If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve. The job requires wearing too much lace.  :grin: </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve. The job requires wearing too much lace.  <img src='http://oneinjesus.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':grin:' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
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		<title>By: Gary Cummings</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3260</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3260</guid>
		<description>Dear Pope Jay I, 
 
I knew you had some insidious plot starting this website-to become the first &quot;official&quot; Church of Christ Pope. Thanks for admitting that! You have my vote for pope. 
 
Gary &quot;the mad-Anabaptist&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Pope Jay I, </p>
<p>I knew you had some insidious plot starting this website-to become the first &quot;official&quot; Church of Christ Pope. Thanks for admitting that! You have my vote for pope. </p>
<p>Gary &quot;the mad-Anabaptist&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3259</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3259</guid>
		<description>Nick didn&#039;t give the link to his post on &lt;i&gt;Pagan Christianity&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/a-balanced-review-of-pagan-christianity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com/2008...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick didn&#039;t give the link to his post on <i>Pagan Christianity</i>. It&#039;s <a href="http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/a-balanced-review-of-pagan-christianity/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com/2008" rel="nofollow">http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com/2008</a>&#8230; </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3258</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3258</guid>
		<description>Not much different than the plan during the lives of the apostles. 
 
Authority showed itself in two ways: depth of service to the community (Mk 10:42-45; 2 Cor 10-11) and harmony of doctrine to the apostolic gospel (Gal 1:6-12; cf. Rom 1:1-7; 1 Cor 15). 
 
One whose life and teaching do not consistently and substantially harmonize with the gospel of Jesus Christ was to be rejected. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not much different than the plan during the lives of the apostles. </p>
<p>Authority showed itself in two ways: depth of service to the community (<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/mark+10%3A42-45' class='bible-tip bible-tip-mark_10%3A42-45'>Mk 10:42-45</a>; <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/2+corinthians+10-11' class='bible-tip bible-tip-2_corinthians_10-11'>2 Cor 10-11</a>) and harmony of doctrine to the apostolic gospel (<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/galatians+1%3A6-12' class='bible-tip bible-tip-galatians_1%3A6-12'>Gal 1:6-12</a>; cf. <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/romans+1%3A1-7' class='bible-tip bible-tip-romans_1%3A1-7'>Rom 1:1-7</a>; <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/1+corinthians+15' class='bible-tip bible-tip-1_corinthians_15'>1 Cor 15</a>). </p>
<p>One whose life and teaching do not consistently and substantially harmonize with the gospel of Jesus Christ was to be rejected. </p>
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		<title>By: Melina</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3257</link>
		<dc:creator>Melina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3257</guid>
		<description>Nick, agreed that the NT congregations accepted direction from the apostles and their reps.  The question I have is what was/is the plan after the death of the apostles. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, agreed that the NT congregations accepted direction from the apostles and their reps.  The question I have is what was/is the plan after the death of the apostles. </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3256</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3256</guid>
		<description>PS - Over on Fumbling, I&#039;ve posted a link to a very pithy and useful review of PC that you might find interesting. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS &#8211; Over on Fumbling, I&#039;ve posted a link to a very pithy and useful review of PC that you might find interesting. </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/07/pagan-christianity-and-congregational-autonomy/#comment-3255</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1392#comment-3255</guid>
		<description>Umm... Paul COMMANDING the Ephesian elders cannot ipso facto imply that they have ultimate authority over the teaching and shepherding of that flock. If they had ultimate authority, they would not be accepting Paul&#039;s commands for that flock. 
 
And the idea that apostolic authority supercedes autonomy does not explain why the Gentile congregations would take James&#039; letters (either in Acts or in the letter we call James) as authoritative. 
 
I&#039;m not trying to deny the idea of autonomy; just trying to show why that particular example doesn&#039;t work for me. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm&#8230; Paul COMMANDING the Ephesian elders cannot ipso facto imply that they have ultimate authority over the teaching and shepherding of that flock. If they had ultimate authority, they would not be accepting Paul&#039;s commands for that flock. </p>
<p>And the idea that apostolic authority supercedes autonomy does not explain why the Gentile congregations would take James&#039; letters (either in Acts or in the letter we call James) as authoritative. </p>
<p>I&#039;m not trying to deny the idea of autonomy; just trying to show why that particular example doesn&#039;t work for me. </p>
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