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	<title>Comments on: Surprised by Hell: Eternal Destruction</title>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-276958</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-276958</guid>
		<description>I have be studying this matter of eternal torment for a few months now. The weight of scripture seems to clearly side with eternal destruction (annihilation) of the unsaved. When one is cast into the lake of fire, the result is the 2nd death, which I believe is the death of the body &amp; soul that Jesus spoke of. It&#039;s becoming clear to me that most the christian church is in error in their doctrine of eternal torment. I am a born again christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have be studying this matter of eternal torment for a few months now. The weight of scripture seems to clearly side with eternal destruction (annihilation) of the unsaved. When one is cast into the lake of fire, the result is the 2nd death, which I believe is the death of the body &amp; soul that Jesus spoke of. It&#8217;s becoming clear to me that most the christian church is in error in their doctrine of eternal torment. I am a born again christian.</p>
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		<title>By: JRF</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3412</link>
		<dc:creator>JRF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Feb 2011 03:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3412</guid>
		<description>&quot;Abraham&#039;s Bosom&quot; refers to that part of the center of the Earth where Paradise existed across the chasm from Hell.  This is the reason that Abraham could speak with the Rich man.  Remember, &quot;a great gulf fixed&quot; (Luke 16:26)?  Jesus died and went to the Paradise in the Earth and &quot;took captivity captive&quot; (Ephesians 4:8-9) and took them to Heaven.  Abraham wouldn&#039;t speak to those in hell now because he resides in heaven.  But before Jesus, Paradise and Hell were both in the center of the Earth. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Abraham&#039;s Bosom&quot; refers to that part of the center of the Earth where Paradise existed across the chasm from Hell.  This is the reason that Abraham could speak with the Rich man.  Remember, &quot;a great gulf fixed&quot; (<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/luke+16%3A26' class='bible-tip bible-tip-luke_16%3A26'>Luke 16:26</a>)?  Jesus died and went to the Paradise in the Earth and &quot;took captivity captive&quot; (<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/ephesians+4%3A8-9' class='bible-tip bible-tip-ephesians_4%3A8-9'>Ephesians 4:8-9</a>) and took them to Heaven.  Abraham wouldn&#039;t speak to those in hell now because he resides in heaven.  But before Jesus, Paradise and Hell were both in the center of the Earth. </p>
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		<title>By: Dawson</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3411</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3411</guid>
		<description>The problem with the Greek translation is that I always thought the Bible was the infallible word of God. If it was translated wrong then it would not be. I think that the idea of eternal torment could never be from the God of the Bible. If he was going to purposely hold some indian from an untouched tribe that never heard the gospel and only believed what he was taught then the idea of God being loving is not true at all. He would be horrible and nobody could ever worship Him. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the Greek translation is that I always thought the Bible was the infallible word of God. If it was translated wrong then it would not be. I think that the idea of eternal torment could never be from the God of the Bible. If he was going to purposely hold some indian from an untouched tribe that never heard the gospel and only believed what he was taught then the idea of God being loving is not true at all. He would be horrible and nobody could ever worship Him. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3410</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3410</guid>
		<description>Justin, 
 
I did a post on what we&#039;ll remember after the judgment at &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/28/surprised-by-hope-will-we-remember-in-heaven/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/28/surprised-by-ho...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
The scriptural authority is actually pretty sparse. But this much is sure: we&#039;ll be in bliss. And how could that be true if we&#039;re aware of loved ones in torment? 
 
It could be argued that we&#039;ll see things from God&#039;s perspective, and so we&#039;ll see the justice of the punishment God gives. But here on earth, when we see a loved one justly jailed or executed, we are still far from being in bliss. It&#039;s agony to see someone we love suffer, even when we know they suffer justly. 
 
Therefore, my own opinion is that we&#039;ll not remember the loved ones who are lost. However, I think we&#039;ll retain much of our memories, as memory defines so much of who we are. 
 
God is surely capable of comforting us even if we are aware of the damnation of our loved ones, but we are promised -- 
 
(Rev 21:4-5)  He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.&quot; 5 He who was seated on the throne said, &quot;I am making everything new!&quot; Then he said, &quot;Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.&quot; 
 
Which brings us to Abraham. My view of Abraham in this parable is that Jesus uses him as a literary device. I mean, Jesus says nothing to suggest that Lazarus was aware of the rich man. And so why would Abraham be aware of the rich man&#039;s fate and not Lazarus? 
 
As you suggest, you might argue that Abraham is given a special role with special powers, but nowhere else is this even hinted at in scripture. The idea of heaven being &quot;Abraham&#039;s bosom&quot; is from Jewish inter-testamental literature. It was a common expression for the fate of good Jews. 
 
Jesus thus builds his parable on a common understanding of heaven without necessarily endorsing the understanding in all its details (there are several references in the NT to uninspired legendary material, without being an endorsement). 
 
The story needs someone to respond to the rich man&#039;s pleas. Gehenna is separation from God, and so God does not answer the rich man&#039;s pleas. Rather, as a literary device, Abraham does -- as the earthly father of all Jews. 
 
But, of course, if those in the lake of fire are cast out of the presence of God, their voices won&#039;t be heard in heaven. And so, my own opinion is that Abraham won&#039;t really be having conversations with the damned after their judgment. I mean, surely he deserves bliss more than the rest of us, and how could he blissfully hear the cries of the damned? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin, </p>
<p>I did a post on what we&#039;ll remember after the judgment at <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/28/surprised-by-hope-will-we-remember-in-heaven/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/28/surprised-by-ho" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/2008/06/28/surprised-by-ho</a>&#8230; </p>
<p>The scriptural authority is actually pretty sparse. But this much is sure: we&#039;ll be in bliss. And how could that be true if we&#039;re aware of loved ones in torment? </p>
<p>It could be argued that we&#039;ll see things from God&#039;s perspective, and so we&#039;ll see the justice of the punishment God gives. But here on earth, when we see a loved one justly jailed or executed, we are still far from being in bliss. It&#039;s agony to see someone we love suffer, even when we know they suffer justly. </p>
<p>Therefore, my own opinion is that we&#039;ll not remember the loved ones who are lost. However, I think we&#039;ll retain much of our memories, as memory defines so much of who we are. </p>
<p>God is surely capable of comforting us even if we are aware of the damnation of our loved ones, but we are promised &#8212; </p>
<p>(<a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/revelation+21%3A4-5' class='bible-tip bible-tip-revelation_21%3A4-5'>Rev 21:4-5</a>)  He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.&quot; 5 He who was seated on the throne said, &quot;I am making everything new!&quot; Then he said, &quot;Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.&quot; </p>
<p>Which brings us to Abraham. My view of Abraham in this parable is that Jesus uses him as a literary device. I mean, Jesus says nothing to suggest that Lazarus was aware of the rich man. And so why would Abraham be aware of the rich man&#039;s fate and not Lazarus? </p>
<p>As you suggest, you might argue that Abraham is given a special role with special powers, but nowhere else is this even hinted at in scripture. The idea of heaven being &quot;Abraham&#039;s bosom&quot; is from Jewish inter-testamental literature. It was a common expression for the fate of good Jews. </p>
<p>Jesus thus builds his parable on a common understanding of heaven without necessarily endorsing the understanding in all its details (there are several references in the NT to uninspired legendary material, without being an endorsement). </p>
<p>The story needs someone to respond to the rich man&#039;s pleas. Gehenna is separation from God, and so God does not answer the rich man&#039;s pleas. Rather, as a literary device, Abraham does &#8212; as the earthly father of all Jews. </p>
<p>But, of course, if those in the lake of fire are cast out of the presence of God, their voices won&#039;t be heard in heaven. And so, my own opinion is that Abraham won&#039;t really be having conversations with the damned after their judgment. I mean, surely he deserves bliss more than the rest of us, and how could he blissfully hear the cries of the damned? </p>
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		<title>By: Justin Allen</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3409</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3409</guid>
		<description>Jay, 
 
Would like to hear your thoughts if you haven&#039;t already addressed this.  If you have already commented on this, my apologies. 
 
Going back to the rich man and lazarus story, it was pretty clear that the rich man in hell was aware of the comforting of lazarus, and abraham had a conversation with the rich man...correct?  So I guess my question is was lazarus aware of what was happening to the rich man?  Does he even remember the rich man?  Or more simply, will the saved remember the dammed? 
 
Obviously, Abraham could talk with the rich man.  Makes me wonder if Abraham had a power lazarus did not. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, </p>
<p>Would like to hear your thoughts if you haven&#039;t already addressed this.  If you have already commented on this, my apologies. </p>
<p>Going back to the rich man and lazarus story, it was pretty clear that the rich man in hell was aware of the comforting of lazarus, and abraham had a conversation with the rich man&#8230;correct?  So I guess my question is was lazarus aware of what was happening to the rich man?  Does he even remember the rich man?  Or more simply, will the saved remember the dammed? </p>
<p>Obviously, Abraham could talk with the rich man.  Makes me wonder if Abraham had a power lazarus did not. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3408</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3408</guid>
		<description>Interesting ... 
 
It&#039;s certainly true that time in the second age will be independent of time as we experience it in this age. And it&#039;s possible that there&#039;s no time at all in eternity -- that is, we&#039;ll exist not only outside earth time (pretty clearly true, I think) but away from time of any sort. 
 
Interesting ... 
 
And I have to grant that much of the language of the second age is metaphor. 
 
But ... the scriptures still say that those outside of Jesus will die, perish, and be destroyed. These are words that indicate a change of condition, from not dead, not destroyed, to dead and destroyed. And so, I just can&#039;t give up on the simplest explanation -- the damned die a second death and don&#039;t exist throughout eternity. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting &#8230; </p>
<p>It&#039;s certainly true that time in the second age will be independent of time as we experience it in this age. And it&#039;s possible that there&#039;s no time at all in eternity &#8212; that is, we&#039;ll exist not only outside earth time (pretty clearly true, I think) but away from time of any sort. </p>
<p>Interesting &#8230; </p>
<p>And I have to grant that much of the language of the second age is metaphor. </p>
<p>But &#8230; the scriptures still say that those outside of Jesus will die, perish, and be destroyed. These are words that indicate a change of condition, from not dead, not destroyed, to dead and destroyed. And so, I just can&#039;t give up on the simplest explanation &#8212; the damned die a second death and don&#039;t exist throughout eternity. </p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/08/surprised-by-hope-eternal-destruction/#comment-3407</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 04:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=1402#comment-3407</guid>
		<description>The question about whether punishment is momentary or permanent presupposes that in the afterlife we will be travelling in one direction through time.  But time is a feature of this creation -- part of the same set of physical laws which guarantee that this creation *cannot* endure forever.  The whole question might be moot in eternity. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question about whether punishment is momentary or permanent presupposes that in the afterlife we will be travelling in one direction through time.  But time is a feature of this creation &#8212; part of the same set of physical laws which guarantee that this creation *cannot* endure forever.  The whole question might be moot in eternity. </p>
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