Comments on: Searching for The Third Way: Baptism, Part 4 http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:41:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mark http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4045 Mark Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:57:56 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4045 Jay asks So, Mark, are you suggesting “baptize” meant something different for the eunuch proselyte than for the Jewish convert? Yes... for one there is a symbolic meaning Isaiah 56:4-6 4For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Jay asks

So, Mark, are you suggesting “baptize” meant something different for the eunuch proselyte than for the Jewish convert?

Yes… for one there is a symbolic meaning

Isaiah 56:4-6
4For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

]]> By: Joe Baggett http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4044 Joe Baggett Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:04:36 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4044 James says that faith without works is dead. If you read the rest of his letter he is really saying faith without transformation is dead. Well I have come to believe that Baptism without transformation is dead. There are plenty of people that have been dunked but never went through any transformation process. The power of the Gospel is lost when Christians can follow all the religious rituals, prescribed worship acts, and religious laws but have no personal story of transformation. How can there be justification or salvation without transformation? James says that faith without works is dead. If you read the rest of his letter he is really saying faith without transformation is dead. Well I have come to believe that Baptism without transformation is dead. There are plenty of people that have been dunked but never went through any transformation process. The power of the Gospel is lost when Christians can follow all the religious rituals, prescribed worship acts, and religious laws but have no personal story of transformation. How can there be justification or salvation without transformation?

]]> By: Jay Guin http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4043 Jay Guin Tue, 04 Nov 2008 19:45:15 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4043 So, Mark, are you suggesting "baptize" meant something different for the eunuch proselyte than for the Jewish convert? I'm not disagreeing -- just trying to understand the argument. So, Mark, are you suggesting "baptize" meant something different for the eunuch proselyte than for the Jewish convert? I'm not disagreeing — just trying to understand the argument.

]]> By: Jay Guin http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4042 Jay Guin Tue, 04 Nov 2008 19:39:05 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4042 Terry, That would be pretty close. Obviously, the use very different terms and come at their conclusions by different means, but the reality is they are quite close to each other. The biggest difference might be that Campbell would see baptism as the Christian's act in response to God's promise. Wright would see it more as a gift received -- like Luther. Terry,

That would be pretty close. Obviously, the use very different terms and come at their conclusions by different means, but the reality is they are quite close to each other.

The biggest difference might be that Campbell would see baptism as the Christian's act in response to God's promise. Wright would see it more as a gift received — like Luther.

]]> By: Terry http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4041 Terry Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:40:54 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4041 If I am understanding the argument of N.T. Wright correctly, he sounds much like Alexander Campbell in his understanding of the meaning of baptism. Alexander Campbell believed that sins were "actually" forgiven when one believed in Jesus and "formally" forgiven when the believer was baptized into Christ(see "Baptism and the Remission of Sins," p. 132, edited by David Fletcher, College Press). Am I understanding N.T. Wright correctly? If I am understanding the argument of N.T. Wright correctly, he sounds much like Alexander Campbell in his understanding of the meaning of baptism. Alexander Campbell believed that sins were "actually" forgiven when one believed in Jesus and "formally" forgiven when the believer was baptized into Christ(see "Baptism and the Remission of Sins," p. 132, edited by David Fletcher, College Press). Am I understanding N.T. Wright correctly?

]]> By: Mark http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/searching-for-the-third-way-baptism-part-4/#comment-4040 Mark Tue, 04 Nov 2008 11:08:26 +0000 http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=742#comment-4040 One of the challenges is some of the metaphors we use today verses what they used back 2000 years ago. One could say marriage is comparable to baptism. But what about being betrothed especially years before? What’s the comparison? Another is particularly with descriptive words like “eunuch” are Western minds tend to sugar coat that word to point we blinded by it but it has an plethora of meanings that when applied to scripture should raise our eyebrows. So what is a eunuch baptism what is a Gentile baptism? As I ponder this I only need to ask a question do I follow the Jewish baptism or the Gentile? What are we? If Jesus is the vine am I the prophetic grafted in branch? One of the challenges is some of the metaphors we use today verses what they used back 2000 years ago. One could say marriage is comparable to baptism. But what about being betrothed especially years before? What’s the comparison? Another is particularly with descriptive words like “eunuch” are Western minds tend to sugar coat that word to point we blinded by it but it has an plethora of meanings that when applied to scripture should raise our eyebrows. So what is a eunuch baptism what is a Gentile baptism? As I ponder this I only need to ask a question do I follow the Jewish baptism or the Gentile? What are we? If Jesus is the vine am I the prophetic grafted in branch?

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