Comments on: Searching for The Third Way: Baptism, Part 5

By: Midgeoreno

Midgeoreno — Sat, 05 Feb 2011 22:22:00 +0000

I've never heard a reformed exposition of Lydia's conversion stated as you have. Rather, that Lydia, once her heart was opened, was able to do that which she was previously unable to do, because she was spiritually dead. Dead. Not gravely I'll or mortally wounded, but dead.

Great Series.

By: Alan

Alan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 09:31:20 +0000

These verses, and many like them certainly seem to say that the point of salvation is the point of faith. But I’ve already argued that baptism is also presented as the point of salvation.

I recognize what you're saying. My point is simply that these verses don't talk about a point in time when any of these things begins (faith, baptism, forgiveness, salvation…) They just identify the people who will be saved, as those who have faith.

By: Ric

Ric — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:31:42 +0000

Hmmm… This seems to give some light to John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

By: Jay Guin

Jay Guin — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:08:54 +0000

I'm going to stop typing now so Mark can say what I was going to say without me getting in the way.

By: Mark

Mark — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:07:50 +0000

"Instead of salvation being an study of intellectual understanding perhaps it is a Christ-centered acceptance of God’s promises found outside man’s intellectual abilities."

Good thought!

By: Jay Guin

Jay Guin — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:07:47 +0000

Dell,

That's very well said.

By: Jay Guin

Jay Guin — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:07:05 +0000

Alan,

I posted a sampling of such verses at http://oneinjesus.info/2008/11/03/searching-for-t…. Each says that all with faith are saved. How can all with faith be saved if only those who've been baptized are saved?

(John 3:36) “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

(John 5:24) “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life"

These verses, and many like them certainly seem to say that the point of salvation is the point of faith. But I've already argued that baptism is also presented as the point of salvation.

Of course, in the First Century, the two were nearly concurrent — baptism following very shortly after faith — which is how it ought to be today. But it often isn't; hence, the problem.

By: Mark

Mark — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:06:07 +0000

"so many verses say we are saved at the moment of faith"

I believe there is 23 verses in Acts alone that claim we are saved without including baptism. Of course this hermeneutically is a problem because logic would dictate that the more something is said the more stronger the argument. However the coC and other denominations’ that adhere to doctrinal positions without a lot of scripture needs to place more authority on the limited references.

By: dell kimberly

dell kimberly — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:47:30 +0000

Thanks for the thoughts. We in the churches of Christ are a people who want to find a "rational" answer to anything religous. If we have to accept anything outside our realm of "scriptural proof" we become uncomfortable. We lean toward the necessity of "perfect understanding and obedience" in order to be saved. Could it be that faith doesn't always include "perfect understanding and obedience"? Instead of salvation being an study of intellectual understanding perhaps it is a Christ-centered acceptance of God's promises found outside man's intellectual abilities.

By: Alan

Alan — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:04:59 +0000

so many verses say we are saved at the moment of faith

I don't think so. There are plenty of verses that say those who believe will be saved. But those verses don't define a timeline distinguishing the moment of belief from the moment of baptism. They don't talk about any particular moment when belief began.