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	<title>Comments on: Hermeneutics and Blue Parakeets: Reading With Tradition</title>
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		<title>By: Joe Bagget</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4179</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Bagget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4179</guid>
		<description>Truth seems to be shaped more by tradition and the way that things were always done than anything else.  This true in secular settings as well.  Why might you ask; because people prefer the emotional security of being right rather than an on going brutally honest UN biased examination of the facts. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truth seems to be shaped more by tradition and the way that things were always done than anything else.  This true in secular settings as well.  Why might you ask; because people prefer the emotional security of being right rather than an on going brutally honest UN biased examination of the facts. </p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Valentine</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4178</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby Valentine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4178</guid>
		<description>Excellent thoughts Jay.  One way of looking at reading Stone, Campbell, Harding, Luther, Ignatius is to conceive of a round table Bible study.  Just as no one person sitting at the table is granted &quot;inspired&quot; status they are often filled with &quot;insight&quot; we would not have had without their help.  Just as we interact with those we do the same with Campbell, Stone, Harding, etc and in the same way.  They are not inspired and do not claim to be. But they just might have as much or more insight as I ever do or will.  Look at such reading as a &quot;conversation.&quot;  There are profound insights to be gained. 
 
Thanks also for the link to my post on Harding&#039;s views on prayer.  There are also far more &quot;echoes&quot; of the Apocryphal writings in the NT than the short list you linked.  I wrote a series on my blog about those too.  Here is a link to Apocryphal Myths that are pushed on the unsuspecting public: &lt;a href=&quot;http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/08/apocryphal-myths.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Shalom, 
Bobby Valentine 
Tucson, AZ </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent thoughts Jay.  One way of looking at reading Stone, Campbell, Harding, Luther, Ignatius is to conceive of a round table Bible study.  Just as no one person sitting at the table is granted &quot;inspired&quot; status they are often filled with &quot;insight&quot; we would not have had without their help.  Just as we interact with those we do the same with Campbell, Stone, Harding, etc and in the same way.  They are not inspired and do not claim to be. But they just might have as much or more insight as I ever do or will.  Look at such reading as a &quot;conversation.&quot;  There are profound insights to be gained. </p>
<p>Thanks also for the link to my post on Harding&#039;s views on prayer.  There are also far more &quot;echoes&quot; of the Apocryphal writings in the NT than the short list you linked.  I wrote a series on my blog about those too.  Here is a link to Apocryphal Myths that are pushed on the unsuspecting public: <a href="http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/08/apocryphal-myths.html" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/" rel="nofollow">http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/</a>&#8230; </p>
<p>Shalom,<br />
Bobby Valentine<br />
Tucson, AZ </p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4177</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4177</guid>
		<description>I would  agree tradition gives us a good insight. But to it can cause some problems in light of previous traditions. These problems can exist for hundreds if not thousands of years. For instance was the woman at the well a good women or a bad woman? The Samaritan culture would say she was extremely good but Western culture would say she was  very bad. What&#8217;s the problem? We assume Samaritan marriage is just like the Jews. But this is not correct. They had there own concepts that looked similar to how we marry today. Put that in the scripture and now we understand how that woman became the worship Christ was talking about the Spirit and the Truth. She became a instant evangelist! She did &#8230;because she was well known and loved by her community, one who was following the marriage traditions of the day. Perhaps we should blame the copyist for there missteps. 
 
But does it end there in the scripture, take for example our restoration did they accept broomstick marriage? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would  agree tradition gives us a good insight. But to it can cause some problems in light of previous traditions. These problems can exist for hundreds if not thousands of years. For instance was the woman at the well a good women or a bad woman? The Samaritan culture would say she was extremely good but Western culture would say she was  very bad. What&rsquo;s the problem? We assume Samaritan marriage is just like the Jews. But this is not correct. They had there own concepts that looked similar to how we marry today. Put that in the scripture and now we understand how that woman became the worship Christ was talking about the Spirit and the Truth. She became a instant evangelist! She did &hellip;because she was well known and loved by her community, one who was following the marriage traditions of the day. Perhaps we should blame the copyist for there missteps. </p>
<p>But does it end there in the scripture, take for example our restoration did they accept broomstick marriage? </p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4176</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4176</guid>
		<description>A deep and thoughtful reply...thank you so much. You&#039;ve given me a lot of practical things to think on and develop for my own congregation and I appreciate it. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A deep and thoughtful reply&#8230;thank you so much. You&#039;ve given me a lot of practical things to think on and develop for my own congregation and I appreciate it. </p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4175</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4175</guid>
		<description>Oh, wow, that&#039;s a hard question. Let me speak in terms of my own experience. 
 
I didn&#039;t start with hermeneutics and then discern sound doctrine. Rather, quite unintentionally, I proceeded by successive approximation. In other words, I first learned some grace. Knowing some grace improved by hermeneutics. Which helped me learn some more grace. Which improved my hermeneutic. Etc. 
 
That may not seem logical, but I think that&#039;s a pretty typical pattern. You see, if you&#039;re steeped in legalism, you are blind to much of what a good hermeneutic would teach you. In fact, an extreme legalist will test your hermeneutic against his legalism. If your hermeneutic doesn&#039;t reach the &quot;right&quot; conclusions, the hermeneutic is defective. It&#039;s backwards, but it&#039;s very typical. 
 
Therefore, you have to start with grace. Not the full load, but enough to make your students&#039; heart grow a size or two (in my experience, we extend as much grace to others as we think God extends to us. Hence, those of us brought up in legalism tend to be very graceless in other things, too). 
 
In my church, it took years to get from a typical middle of the road church to who we are today, and we are pretty white collar, well-educated congregation. But we&#039;re also a big church with lots of new people transferring in as they move to town. Anyway, it&#039;s taken many classes many times for the older members to feel good about grace as we teach it. 
 
Now, the way to start teaching grace will vary with the students -- their ages, open-mindedness, etc. 
 
But in a moderate or conservative congregation, I&#039;d probably start with class like this one: &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/an-idea-for-teaching-a-class-on-grace/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/an-idea-for-tea...&lt;/a&gt;. 
 
You see, in my experience, most legalists think that everyone thinks just like them. When you use the survey described in the link to show how much disagreement there really is in the class, you open the discussion for how do we know which issues are salvation issues and which are not? Obviously, perfect agreement will be impossible -- so we either damn all our fellow class members or admit that God grants some grace on doctrinal issues. 
 
And you go from there. My class notes on grace are filed under Amazing Grace: &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/amazing-grace/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/a...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
I wouldn&#039;t get into baptism for a while if I could help it, because it so identifies our sense of identity, making it very emotional. People have to grow into that one, I think. I did. 
 
Now, once I laid a basis foundation for grace, I&#039;d work on the Regulative Principle (if the class is old enough to think in those terms. Younger classes typically find the whole argument absurd.) Those notes are at &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/the-regulative-principle/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t...&lt;/a&gt;. 
 
Once you know the Regulative Principle is wrong, you open the door for a sound hermeneutic. In addition to the Blue Parakeet notes, I&#039;d cover some of the material at &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/hermeneutics/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/h...&lt;/a&gt; (Or some classes will see the point without the lessons. I&#039;ve never had to spend much time on the material here.) 
 
Now, it would take a couple of years to cover all this material. And, yes, I&#039;ve done here in Tuscaloosa, more than once. But with experience I&#039;ve learned to customize the material to the class. Some classes need to hear it two or three times to grasp it -- the news is too good to believe! 
 
Other classes find it so obvious that they think I&#039;m wasting their time! (younger classes, as a rule). 
 
And I&#039;d certainly mix into the classes the material on missional Christianity. You have to rather frequently draw practical conclusions -- not just doctrinal conclusions. And the material on God&#039;s mission gets you there quickly. &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/missional-christianity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/m...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Grace makes better sense and become more important as we learn to think graciously about the world that surrounds us. 
 
It would take quite a while just to read the material at the links I&#039;ve referenced. And I wouldn&#039;t teach all that material at once.  But I would build much of into a curriculum over time -- perhaps a few years, depending on the church. 
 
The best way to do that, I think, is explained at 
 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/three-ways-to-organize-an-adult-bible-department/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Three Ways to Organize an Adult Bible Department&lt;/a&gt; 
 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/preliminary-thoughts-on-a-new-approach-to-adult-education/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Preliminary Thoughts on a New Approach to Adult Education &lt;/a&gt; 
 
Again, this is too much stuff, but it can be pared down to the right size for a given church. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, wow, that&#039;s a hard question. Let me speak in terms of my own experience. </p>
<p>I didn&#039;t start with hermeneutics and then discern sound doctrine. Rather, quite unintentionally, I proceeded by successive approximation. In other words, I first learned some grace. Knowing some grace improved by hermeneutics. Which helped me learn some more grace. Which improved my hermeneutic. Etc. </p>
<p>That may not seem logical, but I think that&#039;s a pretty typical pattern. You see, if you&#039;re steeped in legalism, you are blind to much of what a good hermeneutic would teach you. In fact, an extreme legalist will test your hermeneutic against his legalism. If your hermeneutic doesn&#039;t reach the &quot;right&quot; conclusions, the hermeneutic is defective. It&#039;s backwards, but it&#039;s very typical. </p>
<p>Therefore, you have to start with grace. Not the full load, but enough to make your students&#039; heart grow a size or two (in my experience, we extend as much grace to others as we think God extends to us. Hence, those of us brought up in legalism tend to be very graceless in other things, too). </p>
<p>In my church, it took years to get from a typical middle of the road church to who we are today, and we are pretty white collar, well-educated congregation. But we&#039;re also a big church with lots of new people transferring in as they move to town. Anyway, it&#039;s taken many classes many times for the older members to feel good about grace as we teach it. </p>
<p>Now, the way to start teaching grace will vary with the students &#8212; their ages, open-mindedness, etc. </p>
<p>But in a moderate or conservative congregation, I&#039;d probably start with class like this one: <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/an-idea-for-teaching-a-class-on-grace/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/an-idea-for-tea" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/an-idea-for-tea</a>&#8230;. </p>
<p>You see, in my experience, most legalists think that everyone thinks just like them. When you use the survey described in the link to show how much disagreement there really is in the class, you open the discussion for how do we know which issues are salvation issues and which are not? Obviously, perfect agreement will be impossible &#8212; so we either damn all our fellow class members or admit that God grants some grace on doctrinal issues. </p>
<p>And you go from there. My class notes on grace are filed under Amazing Grace: <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/amazing-grace/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/a" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/a</a>&#8230; </p>
<p>I wouldn&#039;t get into baptism for a while if I could help it, because it so identifies our sense of identity, making it very emotional. People have to grow into that one, I think. I did. </p>
<p>Now, once I laid a basis foundation for grace, I&#039;d work on the Regulative Principle (if the class is old enough to think in those terms. Younger classes typically find the whole argument absurd.) Those notes are at <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/the-regulative-principle/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t</a>&#8230;. </p>
<p>Once you know the Regulative Principle is wrong, you open the door for a sound hermeneutic. In addition to the Blue Parakeet notes, I&#039;d cover some of the material at <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/hermeneutics/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/h" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/h</a>&#8230; (Or some classes will see the point without the lessons. I&#039;ve never had to spend much time on the material here.) </p>
<p>Now, it would take a couple of years to cover all this material. And, yes, I&#039;ve done here in Tuscaloosa, more than once. But with experience I&#039;ve learned to customize the material to the class. Some classes need to hear it two or three times to grasp it &#8212; the news is too good to believe! </p>
<p>Other classes find it so obvious that they think I&#039;m wasting their time! (younger classes, as a rule). </p>
<p>And I&#039;d certainly mix into the classes the material on missional Christianity. You have to rather frequently draw practical conclusions &#8212; not just doctrinal conclusions. And the material on God&#039;s mission gets you there quickly. <a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/missional-christianity/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/m" rel="nofollow">http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/m</a>&#8230; </p>
<p>Grace makes better sense and become more important as we learn to think graciously about the world that surrounds us. </p>
<p>It would take quite a while just to read the material at the links I&#039;ve referenced. And I wouldn&#039;t teach all that material at once.  But I would build much of into a curriculum over time &#8212; perhaps a few years, depending on the church. </p>
<p>The best way to do that, I think, is explained at </p>
<p><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/three-ways-to-organize-an-adult-bible-department/" rel="nofollow">Three Ways to Organize an Adult Bible Department</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://oneinjesus.info/2007/02/10/preliminary-thoughts-on-a-new-approach-to-adult-education/" rel="nofollow">Preliminary Thoughts on a New Approach to Adult Education </a> </p>
<p>Again, this is too much stuff, but it can be pared down to the right size for a given church. </p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2008/12/hermeneutics-and-blue-parakeets-reading-with-tradition/#comment-4174</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jayguin.wordpress.com/?p=2663#comment-4174</guid>
		<description>Jay, 
 
In your opinion, what does the average member of a congregation who wants to move beyond the individual, &quot;common sense&quot; hermeneutic in which they have grown up, need to do to embrace the &#039;tradition&#039; available in biblical scholarship. In other words, while I whole heartedly agree with McKnight&#039;s view, at the ground level, what does it look like to turn the sheep, with a lack of theological education, free into the intellectual marketplace of the world, to be swayed this way and that? What do &#039;first steps&#039; look like for the timid? 
 
Yours, Matt </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, </p>
<p>In your opinion, what does the average member of a congregation who wants to move beyond the individual, &quot;common sense&quot; hermeneutic in which they have grown up, need to do to embrace the &#039;tradition&#039; available in biblical scholarship. In other words, while I whole heartedly agree with McKnight&#039;s view, at the ground level, what does it look like to turn the sheep, with a lack of theological education, free into the intellectual marketplace of the world, to be swayed this way and that? What do &#039;first steps&#039; look like for the timid? </p>
<p>Yours, Matt </p>
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