Comments on: The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ: Shrinking Congregations, Part 1 http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/ Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:16:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ: Shrinking Congregations, Part 4 (Community) « One In Jesus.info http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5447 The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ: Shrinking Congregations, Part 4 (Community) « One In Jesus.info Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:01:19 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5447 [...] of Christ: Shrinking Congregations, Part 4 (Community) Posted on March 30, 2009 by Jay Guin Alan Rouse noted in an earlier comment that congregations won’t lose members if the congregation is a [...] [...] of Christ: Shrinking Congregations, Part 4 (Community) Posted on March 30, 2009 by Jay Guin Alan Rouse noted in an earlier comment that congregations won’t lose members if the congregation is a [...]

]]> By: Glenn Ziegler http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5446 Glenn Ziegler Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:23:03 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5446 Jay, I think there have been several good answers here. But i also think we're kind of missing the forest for the trees. Why did Jesus say people would be drawn to Him? Because HE was lifted up. Why did Jesus say people would leave Him? Because their own ideas about Him were more important to them than HIS message about Himself. Ask somebody in your congregation to tell you who Jesus is and note how many can say anything after "He's the Christ, the Son of the Living God"...how many can tell you in personal terms what Jesus has meant to them? Our church growth studies remind me of David's numbering of Israel sometimes - looking for strength in numbers of men or types of people drawn in or whatever other flavor looks good on the menu, from adding IM services to re-evaluating VBS. After all, why WAS it wrong for David to count Israel? Because numbering Israel took the focus on relying on God's strength behind a new focus on relying on themselves to be strong enough to do God's bidding. Gideon's amazing shrinking army should have been enough to tell them where the real strength can be found. And it should be enough for us, too. Use the methods, innovations, traditions, and all the other stuff to give shape to your service to the King, but fix your eyes on the King - NOT the programs you are utilizing. It isn't the programs we've gotten wrong. It is the focus. Why can I trust Jesus? How do I know HE is relevant to my everyday life? Where do I go for the hard answers that stump all my friends and the local church leaders ... (gulp!) and me?!! Who do I turn to and how do I express a need without sounding stupid? If failure isn't final, then why is it that none of my friends have responded to my outreach? Why is our church (gasp!) actually losing members? Jesus can answer these questions, if we can tear ourselves away from the newest or tastiest fad long enough to listen to Him. His spirit is available to anyone with enough humility to shut up and listen past the thundering herds going this way and that way and hear His voice. How many of us have been listening to what the Lord is doing among us? Could it be that He is reminding us that our strength is NOT in the numbers of our attendees or members listing their loyalty to one of the many congregations in out town? Could it be that our strength really comes only from the Lord? Could it even possibly be that we have found our own voices so well and published them so widely that we think we're past simply following Jesus every day wherever HE leads? Have we forgotten how to hear HIS voice? Thanks for making us think, Jay and everyone who commented. We've heard our voices. Now how about we get quiet and listen to Jesus? Blessings, Glenn Jay,

I think there have been several good answers here. But i also think we're kind of missing the forest for the trees. Why did Jesus say people would be drawn to Him? Because HE was lifted up. Why did Jesus say people would leave Him? Because their own ideas about Him were more important to them than HIS message about Himself. Ask somebody in your congregation to tell you who Jesus is and note how many can say anything after "He's the Christ, the Son of the Living God"…how many can tell you in personal terms what Jesus has meant to them?

Our church growth studies remind me of David's numbering of Israel sometimes – looking for strength in numbers of men or types of people drawn in or whatever other flavor looks good on the menu, from adding IM services to re-evaluating VBS. After all, why WAS it wrong for David to count Israel? Because numbering Israel took the focus on relying on God's strength behind a new focus on relying on themselves to be strong enough to do God's bidding. Gideon's amazing shrinking army should have been enough to tell them where the real strength can be found. And it should be enough for us, too.

Use the methods, innovations, traditions, and all the other stuff to give shape to your service to the King, but fix your eyes on the King – NOT the programs you are utilizing. It isn't the programs we've gotten wrong. It is the focus.

Why can I trust Jesus? How do I know HE is relevant to my everyday life? Where do I go for the hard answers that stump all my friends and the local church leaders … (gulp!) and me?!! Who do I turn to and how do I express a need without sounding stupid? If failure isn't final, then why is it that none of my friends have responded to my outreach? Why is our church (gasp!) actually losing members?

Jesus can answer these questions, if we can tear ourselves away from the newest or tastiest fad long enough to listen to Him. His spirit is available to anyone with enough humility to shut up and listen past the thundering herds going this way and that way and hear His voice. How many of us have been listening to what the Lord is doing among us? Could it be that He is reminding us that our strength is NOT in the numbers of our attendees or members listing their loyalty to one of the many congregations in out town? Could it be that our strength really comes only from the Lord? Could it even possibly be that we have found our own voices so well and published them so widely that we think we're past simply following Jesus every day wherever HE leads? Have we forgotten how to hear HIS voice?

Thanks for making us think, Jay and everyone who commented. We've heard our voices. Now how about we get quiet and listen to Jesus?

Blessings,

Glenn

]]> By: Robert Baty http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5445 Robert Baty Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:46:39 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5445 David wrote, in part: > I believe the biggest threat to > Christianity, is the hypocrisy > of Christians. Some might consider the following an example recently presented for discussion on this blog: OCUSA founders' unanimous landmark resolution: > "Whereas, we believe that such an > institution should be kept separate > and apart from the church;"... OCUSA Board Chairman, before the court, on behalf of its "basketball minister" and similar employees: > (Caesar) "erred in failing to recognize > (OCUSA) as being an integral agency > of the churches (sic) of Christ." Matthew 7:1,2 & James 3:1! Sincerely, Robert Baty David wrote, in part:

> I believe the biggest threat to
> Christianity, is the hypocrisy
> of Christians.

Some might consider the following an example recently presented for discussion on this blog:

OCUSA founders' unanimous landmark resolution:

> "Whereas, we believe that such an
> institution should be kept separate
> and apart from the church;"…

OCUSA Board Chairman, before the court, on behalf of its "basketball minister" and similar employees:

> (Caesar) "erred in failing to recognize
> (OCUSA) as being an integral agency
> of the churches (sic) of Christ."

Matthew 7:1,2 & James 3:1!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

]]> By: Joe Baggett http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5444 Joe Baggett Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:31:06 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5444 Church Unique is great! Church Unique is great!

]]> By: Joe Baggett http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5443 Joe Baggett Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:30:40 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5443 Becoming all things to all people requires some of the so called”innovations”. Paul adjusted his approach as he realized that every person’s spiritual journey is different. He focused on the theological questions people were asking not a general one size fits all come and hear it if you want to approach nor did he relegate theological dialogue with unbelievers and evangelism to service though it is a big part of it. Internal grace and outward serving gain credit among the ever watching unbelieving world but they don’t completely answer the theological questions of our diverse post –modern culture. Please understand I am not suggesting that having Star Bucks coffee in the foyer of the building or stuff like that would completely answer their questions either. It may create a more relaxed atmosphere where people feel more comfortable asking questions or developing a relationship where questions can be asked. If it has not been noticed people are not asking the same theological questions they did 30 years ago. People are not asking what acts or rituals are authorized to occur in a one hour assembly once a week. They are not asking which church is right and which church is wrong or which is the correct religious affiliation. They are asking deeper questions like why is the Bible true but all other religious writings are not? They were all written by men and all seem to say the same things. Or another important one is how is the God described in the Bible different than the God described in the tanoak or the Koran or any other book claiming to be the word of God. Does God really treat Gay and Lesbian people the way evangelical Christian do; marching in the streets with signs and declaring how God will punish them. Does God really exist at all with all the evil in the world? There are many more questions but you get the idea. We must prepare ourselves spiritually to defend the faith not against other denominations or so called erring churches of Christ but against other claims to truth. I asked our Sunday morning Bible class if they knew the basic theology of the five major religions or the fastest growing religion of secular humanism called Baha’i? No one knew. Then I told ever body that within 10 miles of our church building there were buildings representing all of those other groups. People were surprised. If we think that post-modernism and multi-culturism are just going to go away in a few years we are fooling ourselves. Becoming all things to all people requires some of the so called”innovations”. Paul adjusted his approach as he realized that every person’s spiritual journey is different. He focused on the theological questions people were asking not a general one size fits all come and hear it if you want to approach nor did he relegate theological dialogue with unbelievers and evangelism to service though it is a big part of it. Internal grace and outward serving gain credit among the ever watching unbelieving world but they don’t completely answer the theological questions of our diverse post –modern culture. Please understand I am not suggesting that having Star Bucks coffee in the foyer of the building or stuff like that would completely answer their questions either. It may create a more relaxed atmosphere where people feel more comfortable asking questions or developing a relationship where questions can be asked. If it has not been noticed people are not asking the same theological questions they did 30 years ago. People are not asking what acts or rituals are authorized to occur in a one hour assembly once a week. They are not asking which church is right and which church is wrong or which is the correct religious affiliation. They are asking deeper questions like why is the Bible true but all other religious writings are not? They were all written by men and all seem to say the same things. Or another important one is how is the God described in the Bible different than the God described in the tanoak or the Koran or any other book claiming to be the word of God. Does God really treat Gay and Lesbian people the way evangelical Christian do; marching in the streets with signs and declaring how God will punish them. Does God really exist at all with all the evil in the world? There are many more questions but you get the idea. We must prepare ourselves spiritually to defend the faith not against other denominations or so called erring churches of Christ but against other claims to truth. I asked our Sunday morning Bible class if they knew the basic theology of the five major religions or the fastest growing religion of secular humanism called Baha’i? No one knew. Then I told ever body that within 10 miles of our church building there were buildings representing all of those other groups. People were surprised. If we think that post-modernism and multi-culturism are just going to go away in a few years we are fooling ourselves.

]]> By: Mark http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5442 Mark Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:27:16 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5442 Another thing to consider is that churches of Christ are seeing a dynamic change in their congregations. Other denominational people experiencing fallout from their churches have the coC as an alternative. However when this 1 to 2% of the church growth is not connected to the basic belief system of the church serious relational problems arise. What this means is the coC liberal or not have to ask tough question of their new members. When these questions are not asked out of fear of losing the person or family our basic theology begins shift. What happens is a secret systems of organization and ministry begins to emerge. Several years ago I went to a life group in a Florida coC. I asked the the leaders how did you come into the coC? The couple replied what do mean we are Baptist. We are here because we like your church! Another thing to consider is that churches of Christ are seeing a dynamic change in their congregations. Other denominational people experiencing fallout from their churches have the coC as an alternative. However when this 1 to 2% of the church growth is not connected to the basic belief system of the church serious relational problems arise.

What this means is the coC liberal or not have to ask tough question of their new members. When these questions are not asked out of fear of losing the person or family our basic theology begins shift.

What happens is a secret systems of organization and ministry begins to emerge. Several years ago I went to a life group in a Florida coC. I asked the the leaders how did you come into the coC? The couple replied what do mean we are Baptist. We are here because we like your church!

]]> By: Jim K. http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5441 Jim K. Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:34:41 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5441 BEFORE everyone runs in with a "ready - fire - aim" approach, let me suggest a book that is quietly making many ripples across the ponds of many churches everywhere in the kingdom. "Church Unique" bu WIll Mancinni is an excellent book that will guide all of us regardless of church, denomination etc. to take a hard - long look at ourselves, to determine who we are and what our purpose really is. The leadership (Elders, and church staff and spouses) are currently going through this process and being facilitated by Mancinni, to see this. We are a progressive church of Christ that does not have an instrument and yet are growing. We don't know yet who we really are, but we are going to find out and I know that we will be very blessed for having done this process. As a Shepherd/Elder I am excited to see that we can use this process to get to the root of who we are and what we are to be about. It's not being like everyone else, with the latest store bought products, its much much more. Church Unique is a great catelyst that will cause you to think. I would ask you to check it out, and we can even discuss it on this blog - if Jay wants to. We are going to be a progressive church that grows regardless!!! BEFORE everyone runs in with a "ready – fire – aim" approach, let me suggest a book that is quietly making many ripples across the ponds of many churches everywhere in the kingdom.

"Church Unique" bu WIll Mancinni is an excellent book that will guide all of us regardless of church, denomination etc. to take a hard – long look at ourselves, to determine who we are and what our purpose really is. The leadership (Elders, and church staff and spouses) are currently going through this process and being facilitated by Mancinni, to see this. We are a progressive church of Christ that does not have an instrument and yet are growing. We don't know yet who we really are, but we are going to find out and I know that we will be very blessed for having done this process. As a Shepherd/Elder I am excited to see that we can use this process to get to the root of who we are and what we are to be about. It's not being like everyone else, with the latest store bought products, its much much more.

Church Unique is a great catelyst that will cause you to think. I would ask you to check it out, and we can even discuss it on this blog – if Jay wants to. We are going to be a progressive church that grows regardless!!!

]]> By: David P Himes http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5440 David P Himes Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:30:22 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5440 John Randy Royse, That's a great testimony. I pray every congregation can seek to emulate that kind of thing. I believe the biggest threat to Christianity, is the hypocrisy of Christians. The second biggest threat -- especially for many Churches of Christ -- is that, by our behavior and practices, we leave many people with the impression they will not fit into our fellowship. Focusing internally on grace and externally on serving out of love for others are the only ways to fight such effects. But ultimately, it's an individual struggle, not a corporate one. John Randy Royse,
That's a great testimony. I pray every congregation can seek to emulate that kind of thing.

I believe the biggest threat to Christianity, is the hypocrisy of Christians. The second biggest threat — especially for many Churches of Christ — is that, by our behavior and practices, we leave many people with the impression they will not fit into our fellowship.

Focusing internally on grace and externally on serving out of love for others are the only ways to fight such effects. But ultimately, it's an individual struggle, not a corporate one.

]]> By: Alan http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5439 Alan Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:10:03 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5439 I'll look for you Sunday - at least look for someone on the praise team whom I do not know :-) I'll be in the back on the camera. I'll look for you Sunday – at least look for someone on the praise team whom I do not know :-) I'll be in the back on the camera.

]]> By: John Randy Royse http://oneinjesus.info/2009/03/the-future-of-the-progressive-churches-of-christ-shrinking-congregations/#comment-5438 John Randy Royse Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:28:58 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4170#comment-5438 Jay, thanks for all your excellent work and words..... As a RHCC member for the last 7 years, most of the comments made here do touch on the aspects of the effort of our fellowship to deal with the workings of how a congregation deals with internal and external influences. How it sees it's place in community; local, regional, national, and international. I've never been in a C/C community with a 20 year vision till I wound up at RHCC. The various aspects of the RHCC church are well documented and available on their website. But to really understand, you have to know that this is a community really trying to look out, not inward. All of our ministries are guided to be outward focused and our annual review(s) make us reflect on how we server all the communities we can touch. There is certainly an internal aspect (we must feed our flock), but we must explain how we touch Samaria (the very international community that lives in the DFW area) and the uttermost ends of the earth. We're not perfect of course, but we are forbidden to bury our talents. I've never been in a place where people are empowered to make their own decisions, do what they think is needed, and encouraged to come ask for more support when we need it. No nit-picky 2nd guessing, just what did you learn and are you ready to go again? It's what happens when leaders love their flock, trust that the Spirit will lead us all, and have faith that mistakes are just a learning process towards growth. That is an attitude that attracts both believers, seekers, and those who don't know they're looking, but who can sense the presence of those who will help. Jay, thanks for all your excellent work and words…..

As a RHCC member for the last 7 years, most of the comments made here do touch on the aspects of the effort of our fellowship to deal with the workings of how a congregation deals with internal and external influences. How it sees it's place in community; local, regional, national, and international. I've never been in a C/C community with a 20 year vision till I wound up at RHCC.

The various aspects of the RHCC church are well documented and available on their website. But to really understand, you have to know that this is a community really trying to look out, not inward. All of our ministries are guided to be outward focused and our annual review(s) make us reflect on how we server all the communities we can touch. There is certainly an internal aspect (we must feed our flock), but we must explain how we touch Samaria (the very international community that lives in the DFW area) and the uttermost ends of the earth.

We're not perfect of course, but we are forbidden to bury our talents. I've never been in a place where people are empowered to make their own decisions, do what they think is needed, and encouraged to come ask for more support when we need it. No nit-picky 2nd guessing, just what did you learn and are you ready to go again?

It's what happens when leaders love their flock, trust that the Spirit will lead us all, and have faith that mistakes are just a learning process towards growth. That is an attitude that attracts both believers, seekers, and those who don't know they're looking, but who can sense the presence of those who will help.

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