Comments on: Dialogue with Robert Prater: Baptism, Circumcision, Galatians, 1 John, and GraceConversation

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 01:02:00 +0000

Any activity a person does is a “work of merit” if they do it with the idea that God will owe them for doing it. However, any activity a person does in order to either accept a gift (thin Naaman for example) or in appreciation of a gift is a work of faith or trust if done for that purpose. We need be clear that the difference between right and wrong is in the motive and the difference between an act of faith and a work of merit is also in the motive. Neither physical actions nor mental agreement with some idea are of any value in isolation. Faith without action is of no value and actions apart from trust due to love are of no value either. So, baptism can be a work of merit if that is the motive but if it is done because one trusts in God’s promise of forgiveness then it is of faith. Simple.

By: Lanny Jobe

Lanny Jobe — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:08:49 +0000

Here's the problem: Grace saves; baptism saves; works do not save; therefore baptism cannot be a work, since it saves. The logical conclusion is that whatever work one wants to argue for in baptism is not man's work but God's. It's obvious to me that the "works" Paul referred to in Eph 2:8-10 was in reference to man's efforts, not God's.

By: Terry

Terry — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:30:43 +0000

Thank you for responding to my question, Jay. I appreciate it.

By: thumper

thumper — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:45:48 +0000

"We in the Churches of Christ have traditionally figured that the smart move was to add marks just to be safe."

Hmm. Isn't that the same logic the Pharisees used? Jesus sure seemed to be happy with those guys, wasn't He?

By: Robert Baty

Robert Baty — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:05:27 +0000

Keith,

That "baptism IS a work" is "NOT up for debate".

I have the answer on that!

"I don't want to argue" the point or any other point at which "my" answers seem to differ from others who claim to have the answers.

However, sometimes the good brethren compel me to engage them on such matters.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

By: Keith Brenton

Keith Brenton — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:09:56 +0000

Robert, I would say that if you want to argue that baptism is a work of God, I'd certainly agree with you … I think Jay would, too.

I agree with him that baptism is a gift from God, and in addition to the reasons Jay has stated, here's another – and I'll quote from my own blog:

"What did Jesus mean when confronted by a question designed to trip Him up and His response was another trick question (Matthew 21:23-27; Luke 20:1-8): "John's baptism – was it from heaven or from men?" It was more than a trick question. They knew that if they answered "From heaven," He could ask them why they didn't believe; if they answered "From men," the believing people would stone them.

"Jesus knew that baptism was a gift from heaven; was part of the way that the 'voice crying out in the wilderness' (John) was preparing the way for Him. And He knew it was a way that would lead all the way to the cross and the tomb.

"What a gorgeous picture from such a gory precedent! What potent portent! In baptism, we are privileged to 'act out' Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:4). It's as if we're washed clean the way water does to dirt, but it is by His blood cleansing our sin. It's part of the way we join His bride; His family. Paul speaks of that relationship as so intimate that he compares it to a husband giving his wife a private bath (Ephesians 5:25-33).

"Maybe there should be a baptismal commitment by the penitent that begins: 'With this baptism I die to self; and with all my worldly and other-worldly affections I Thee endow ….'

"It's no wonder that God wants us to experience it; share it; be blessed and challenged by it!

"How can we look at this gift and tell God, "That's nice, but I'd like something different"? Or "Ooh, ooh! I want baptism! I just don't want to get wet."

"That'd be like saying, 'Ooh! Ooh! I want to be like Jesus! I just don't want to do any of the things He did.'

At the same time, how can we view baptism as an end unto itself, rather than a means to an end? As if it were somehow divorced from Christ by its supposed co-equal importance? Or as if it were the only request God had made of us?

"The trouble with Restoration churches is that we've tried to sell baptism as part of a package of minimum requirements, instead of as part of a plethora of requests from God to be like His Son and be challenged, blessed, and drawn closer to Him by them. As if there could be such a list of minimum requirements for being like Him, when Jesus Christ spent every day of His life on this earth finding new ways to walk the extra mile. As if anything we could do would even begin to merit the forgiveness, the salvation, the relationship with God that He provides."

By: Bob

Bob — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:31:24 +0000

Jay

Great post. Not many replies. Eph.2:8-10 also explains a lot about grace. We are not saved by works but are made for them to give God all the glory and to show the Gospel to our friends and all around us by the Spirit living in us.

In Christ

Bob

By: Robert Baty

Robert Baty — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:29:14 +0000

Given the following claims, I guess it is understandable why I should be the first to comment on this article:

> And so we begin by knowing
> the answers.

> (T)he answers have been given
> to us and therefore aren’t up
> for debate.

> It is impossible for baptism to
> be a work…

> Christian baptism is not a work.
> Period.

Now, I don't happen to share Jay's opinion in that matter.

However, given that set-up, is there any reason for me to comment?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty