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	<title>Comments on: CENI: The Laws Behind the Curtain</title>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6179</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 12:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rather than to say that AC retreated from his Lunenberg Letters, it is 
better to say that he explained himself much better in the ATTACHED 
material which is often missed. We all agree that we had better have as 
a friend an unbaptized atheist who lived right and just THAN a baptized 
member of the church who taught false doctrine. AC would not consider a 
person saved as a uppercase Christian unless they had been baptized. 
It was because of the false making hay by the Baptists gloating that AC 
had changed his mind and &quot;joined them&quot; and others who failed to read 
with understanding that he followed up as he often did as a form of 
debate. It may be that AC used an alias to set up such a debate. 
Unfortunately, people cherry pick. Of the quotation: 
&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;We do not suppose all unimmersed persons to be 
absolute aliens from the family of God&#8211;nor are they absolutely excluded 
from any participation with us in prayer or in the Lord&#8217;s supper. 
(Alexander Campbell, &#8220;The Christian Magazine,&#8221; MH, March, 1845)&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; 
WE don&#039;t suppose so either: WE never ASK in my 79ish years around the 
country and some &quot;world.&quot; WE don&#039;t try to make that judgment: Thomas 
was defacto disfellowshipped from the Presbyterians for offering 
communion to those NOT of his participar Presbyterian SECT which issued 
&quot;tokens&quot; to affirm one&#039;s worthiness. 
Of the statement: &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;. I cannot make any one duty the 
standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the 
name of Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; 
But, the REST OF THE STORY by A.C. 
&lt;i&gt;Many a good man has been mistaken. Mistakes are to be regarded 
as culpable and as declarative of a corrupt heart only when they 
proceed from a wilful neglect of the means of knowing what is 
commanded. 
&lt;b&gt;Ignorance is always a crime when it is voluntary; and innocent 
when it is involuntary.&lt;/b&gt; 
Now, unless I could prove that &lt;b&gt;all who neglect the positive 
institutions of Christ&lt;/b&gt; and have substituted for them 
something else of human authority, do it knowingly, or, if not 
knowingly, are voluntarily ignorant of what is written, I could not, I 
dare not say that their mistakes are such as &lt;b&gt;unchristianize 
all their professions.&lt;/b&gt; 
True, indeed, that it is always a misfortune to be ignorant of any 
thing in the Bible, and very generally it is criminal&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;b&gt;CAMPBELL BLAMES THE TEACHERS FOR THE IGNORANCE.&lt;/b&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;And while I would unhesitatingly say that I think that every 
man who despises any ordinance of Christ or who is willingly ignorant 
of it, cannot be a Christian; still I should sin against my own 
convictions, should I teach any one to think that if he mistook the 
meaning of any institution while in his soul he desired to know the 
whole will of God he must perish forever.&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;b&gt;NOW LISTEN WHILE CAMPBELL WARNS AGAINST USING ONE&#039;S OPINION TO 
NOT TEACH THE TRUTH:&lt;/b&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;But to conclude for the present--he that claims for himself a 
license to neglect the least of all the commandments of Jesus 
&lt;b&gt;because it is possible for some to be saved who through 
insuperable ignorance or involuntary mistake, do neglect or transgress 
it;&lt;/b&gt; 
or he that wilfully neglects to ascertain the will of the Lord to the 
whole extent of his means and opportunities because some who are 
defective in that knowledge may be Christians, 
&lt;b&gt;is not possessed of the spirit of Christ and cannot be 
registered among the Lord&#039;s people.&lt;/b&gt; 
So I reason; and I think in so reasoning I am sustained by all the 
Prophets and Apostles of both Testaments.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
If you MISUSE Campbell to encourage people NOT to be baptized then Campbell places you outside of the Pale. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than to say that AC retreated from his Lunenberg Letters, it is<br />
better to say that he explained himself much better in the ATTACHED<br />
material which is often missed. We all agree that we had better have as<br />
a friend an unbaptized atheist who lived right and just THAN a baptized<br />
member of the church who taught false doctrine. AC would not consider a<br />
person saved as a uppercase Christian unless they had been baptized.<br />
It was because of the false making hay by the Baptists gloating that AC<br />
had changed his mind and &quot;joined them&quot; and others who failed to read<br />
with understanding that he followed up as he often did as a form of<br />
debate. It may be that AC used an alias to set up such a debate.<br />
Unfortunately, people cherry pick. Of the quotation:<br />
<i><b>We do not suppose all unimmersed persons to be<br />
absolute aliens from the family of God&ndash;nor are they absolutely excluded<br />
from any participation with us in prayer or in the Lord&rsquo;s supper.<br />
(Alexander Campbell, &ldquo;The Christian Magazine,&rdquo; MH, March, 1845)</b></i><br />
WE don&#039;t suppose so either: WE never ASK in my 79ish years around the<br />
country and some &quot;world.&quot; WE don&#039;t try to make that judgment: Thomas<br />
was defacto disfellowshipped from the Presbyterians for offering<br />
communion to those NOT of his participar Presbyterian SECT which issued<br />
&quot;tokens&quot; to affirm one&#039;s worthiness.<br />
Of the statement: <b><i>. I cannot make any one duty the<br />
standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the<br />
name of Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</i></b><br />
But, the REST OF THE STORY by A.C.<br />
<i>Many a good man has been mistaken. Mistakes are to be regarded<br />
as culpable and as declarative of a corrupt heart only when they<br />
proceed from a wilful neglect of the means of knowing what is<br />
commanded.<br />
<b>Ignorance is always a crime when it is voluntary; and innocent<br />
when it is involuntary.</b><br />
Now, unless I could prove that <b>all who neglect the positive<br />
institutions of Christ</b> and have substituted for them<br />
something else of human authority, do it knowingly, or, if not<br />
knowingly, are voluntarily ignorant of what is written, I could not, I<br />
dare not say that their mistakes are such as <b>unchristianize<br />
all their professions.</b><br />
True, indeed, that it is always a misfortune to be ignorant of any<br />
thing in the Bible, and very generally it is criminal</i><br />
<b>CAMPBELL BLAMES THE TEACHERS FOR THE IGNORANCE.</b><br />
<i>And while I would unhesitatingly say that I think that every<br />
man who despises any ordinance of Christ or who is willingly ignorant<br />
of it, cannot be a Christian; still I should sin against my own<br />
convictions, should I teach any one to think that if he mistook the<br />
meaning of any institution while in his soul he desired to know the<br />
whole will of God he must perish forever.</i><br />
<b>NOW LISTEN WHILE CAMPBELL WARNS AGAINST USING ONE&#039;S OPINION TO<br />
NOT TEACH THE TRUTH:</b><br />
<i>But to conclude for the present&#8211;he that claims for himself a<br />
license to neglect the least of all the commandments of Jesus<br />
<b>because it is possible for some to be saved who through<br />
insuperable ignorance or involuntary mistake, do neglect or transgress<br />
it;</b><br />
or he that wilfully neglects to ascertain the will of the Lord to the<br />
whole extent of his means and opportunities because some who are<br />
defective in that knowledge may be Christians,<br />
<b>is not possessed of the spirit of Christ and cannot be<br />
registered among the Lord&#039;s people.</b><br />
So I reason; and I think in so reasoning I am sustained by all the<br />
Prophets and Apostles of both Testaments.</i> </p>
<p>If you MISUSE Campbell to encourage people NOT to be baptized then Campbell places you outside of the Pale.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6178</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 20:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6178</guid>
		<description>Aaahhh!  more information to ponder.  I do appreciate the research.  I guess the question is, did Alexander continually change his views or was he just refining the way he communicated them? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaahhh!  more information to ponder.  I do appreciate the research.  I guess the question is, did Alexander continually change his views or was he just refining the way he communicated them?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6177</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 20:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6177</guid>
		<description>An excellent series of quotations showing Campbell&#039;s attitude toward the improperly immersed before and after the Lunenburg correspondence may be found at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.magnoliacoc.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=23&amp;Itemid=41&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.magnoliacoc.org/index.php?option=com_c...&lt;/a&gt;. Here are a few -- 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;We do not suppose all unimmersed persons to be absolute aliens from the family of God--nor are they absolutely excluded from any participation with us in prayer or in the Lord&#039;s supper. (Alexander Campbell, &quot;The Christian Magazine,&quot; MH, March, 1845) &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
 
To the idea that Campbell repudiated his views in the Lunenburg Letter, this is eight years after he wrote the response to the Lunenburg Letter. 
 
About this period [1847] the &quot;Evangelical Alliance,&quot; designed to promote the union of Christians, attracted much of Mr. Campbell&#039;s attention, and was hailed by him with great satisfaction as an indication of the approach of a better era. As to the basis of union which it proposed, he expressed a substantial agreement, though objecting to some of the expressions employed as unscriptural. He pointed out the resemblance of the movement to that of the &quot;Christian Association&quot; in Washington in 1809, which, like the Evangelical Alliance, assumed not the character of a church, but of a society to promote union among Christians, and remarked, at the close of his article: 
 
 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;&#8221;I said at the beginning, I say at the close, of my notice of the Evangelical Alliance, that I thank God and take courage at every effort, however imperfect it may be, to open the eyes of the community to the impotency and wickedness of schism, and to impress upon the conscientious and benevolent portion of the Christian profession the excellency, the beauty and the necessity of co-operation in the cause of Christ as prerequisite to the diffusion of Christianity throughout the nations of the earth. 
 
&#8221;The Reformation for which we plead grew out of a conviction of the enormous evils of schism and partyism, and the first article ever printed by any of the co-operants in the present effort was upon the subject of the necessity, practicability and excellency of Christian union and communion, in order to the purification and extension of the Christian profession. The abjuration of human creeds as roots of bitterness and apples of discord, as the permanent causes of all sectarianism, was set forth as a preliminary step to the purification of the Church and the conversion of the world. The restoration of a pure speech, or the giving of Bible names to Bible ideas, followed in its train, and from these standing-points we have been led step by step to our present position, each one of the prime movers adding to the common stock something of importance, until matters have issued in one of the most extensive moral and ecclesiastical movements and revolutions of the present age.&#8221; &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
(A. Campbell&#039;s views on the Evangelical Alliance, from Robert Richardson&#8217;s Memoirs of Alexander Campbell, Volume II, Chapter XVII) Campbell could hardly work for &quot;Christian&quot; unity across denominational lines if he considered other denominations non-Christians. He could only refer to denominational differences as &quot;schisms&quot; because he saw the denominations as being of &quot;common stock&quot; (same family). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent series of quotations showing Campbell&#039;s attitude toward the improperly immersed before and after the Lunenburg correspondence may be found at <a href="http://www.magnoliacoc.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=23&amp;Itemid=41" rel="nofollow">http://www.magnoliacoc.org/index.php?option=com_c&#8230;</a>. Here are a few &#8212; </p>
<blockquote><p>We do not suppose all unimmersed persons to be absolute aliens from the family of God&#8211;nor are they absolutely excluded from any participation with us in prayer or in the Lord&#039;s supper. (Alexander Campbell, &quot;The Christian Magazine,&quot; MH, March, 1845) </p></blockquote>
<p>To the idea that Campbell repudiated his views in the Lunenburg Letter, this is eight years after he wrote the response to the Lunenburg Letter. </p>
<p>About this period [1847] the &quot;Evangelical Alliance,&quot; designed to promote the union of Christians, attracted much of Mr. Campbell&#039;s attention, and was hailed by him with great satisfaction as an indication of the approach of a better era. As to the basis of union which it proposed, he expressed a substantial agreement, though objecting to some of the expressions employed as unscriptural. He pointed out the resemblance of the movement to that of the &quot;Christian Association&quot; in Washington in 1809, which, like the Evangelical Alliance, assumed not the character of a church, but of a society to promote union among Christians, and remarked, at the close of his article: </p>
<blockquote><p>&rdquo;I said at the beginning, I say at the close, of my notice of the Evangelical Alliance, that I thank God and take courage at every effort, however imperfect it may be, to open the eyes of the community to the impotency and wickedness of schism, and to impress upon the conscientious and benevolent portion of the Christian profession the excellency, the beauty and the necessity of co-operation in the cause of Christ as prerequisite to the diffusion of Christianity throughout the nations of the earth. </p>
<p>&rdquo;The Reformation for which we plead grew out of a conviction of the enormous evils of schism and partyism, and the first article ever printed by any of the co-operants in the present effort was upon the subject of the necessity, practicability and excellency of Christian union and communion, in order to the purification and extension of the Christian profession. The abjuration of human creeds as roots of bitterness and apples of discord, as the permanent causes of all sectarianism, was set forth as a preliminary step to the purification of the Church and the conversion of the world. The restoration of a pure speech, or the giving of Bible names to Bible ideas, followed in its train, and from these standing-points we have been led step by step to our present position, each one of the prime movers adding to the common stock something of importance, until matters have issued in one of the most extensive moral and ecclesiastical movements and revolutions of the present age.&rdquo; </p></blockquote>
<p>(A. Campbell&#039;s views on the Evangelical Alliance, from Robert Richardson&rsquo;s Memoirs of Alexander Campbell, Volume II, Chapter XVII) Campbell could hardly work for &quot;Christian&quot; unity across denominational lines if he considered other denominations non-Christians. He could only refer to denominational differences as &quot;schisms&quot; because he saw the denominations as being of &quot;common stock&quot; (same family).</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6176</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 18:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6176</guid>
		<description>Like most of us, Alexander used the word christian to define anyone who lived by Christian principles: &quot;we are a christian nation.&quot;  Then as now the masses (no about 50%) believed that they were baptized FOR the remission of sins. Some preachers are reluctant to baptize people on their confession.  Those Baptists would be defined with an uppercase C.  After the original letters the Baptists  publically GLOATED and AC had to deny that he approved of ther view. So, you have to quote BOTH the letters and ACs quick corrective.&lt;b&gt; 
  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.piney.com/AC.Lunenburg.Orig.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.piney.com/AC.Lunenburg.Orig.html&lt;/a&gt; 
 
&lt;/b&gt;&lt;i&gt;2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in Babylon--&quot;Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues&quot;--had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion! 
 
3. But let him that yet doubts, read the following passages from the Christian Baptist, April, 1825:-- 
 
    &quot;I have no idea of seeing, nor wish to see, the sects unite in one grand army. 
    This would be dangerous to our liberties and laws. For this the Saviour did not pray. 
    &lt;b&gt;It is only the disciples DISPERSED among them that reason and benevolence would call out of them,&lt;/b&gt; &quot;&amp;c. &amp;c. This looks very like our present opinion of Christians among the sects!!! 2d ed. Bethany, p. 85. 
 
4. Again, speaking of purity of speech in order to the union of Christians, we say, 
 
    &quot;None of you [Christians] have ever yet attempted to show how Christians can be united on your principles. 
    You have often showed how they may be divided, and how each party may hold its own, but while you pray for the visible unity of the disciples, and advocate their visible disunity, we cannot understand you.&quot; March, 1827, vol. 4.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
OF THE BAPTIST&#039;S BAPTISM: 
 
&lt;b&gt;Besides, immersion gives a constitutional right of citizenship in the universal kingdom of Jesus; 
whereas with our opponents, themselves being judges, their &quot;baptism&quot; gives the rights of citizenship 
only in some provinces of that kingdom.&lt;/b&gt; 
 
That is why a Church of Christ type would not be accepted if they believed Acts 2:38 as written.  In my 79ish years one would be asked what they understood about their baptism to make sure that they are happy. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like most of us, Alexander used the word christian to define anyone who lived by Christian principles: &quot;we are a christian nation.&quot;  Then as now the masses (no about 50%) believed that they were baptized FOR the remission of sins. Some preachers are reluctant to baptize people on their confession.  Those Baptists would be defined with an uppercase C.  After the original letters the Baptists  publically GLOATED and AC had to deny that he approved of ther view. So, you have to quote BOTH the letters and ACs quick corrective.<b><br />
  <a href="http://www.piney.com/AC.Lunenburg.Orig.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.piney.com/AC.Lunenburg.Orig.html</a> </p>
<p></b><i>2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in Babylon&#8211;&quot;Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues&quot;&#8211;had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion! </p>
<p>3. But let him that yet doubts, read the following passages from the Christian Baptist, April, 1825:&#8211; </p>
<p>    &quot;I have no idea of seeing, nor wish to see, the sects unite in one grand army.<br />
    This would be dangerous to our liberties and laws. For this the Saviour did not pray.<br />
    <b>It is only the disciples DISPERSED among them that reason and benevolence would call out of them,</b> &quot;&amp;c. &amp;c. This looks very like our present opinion of Christians among the sects!!! 2d ed. Bethany, p. 85. </p>
<p>4. Again, speaking of purity of speech in order to the union of Christians, we say, </p>
<p>    &quot;None of you [Christians] have ever yet attempted to show how Christians can be united on your principles.<br />
    You have often showed how they may be divided, and how each party may hold its own, but while you pray for the visible unity of the disciples, and advocate their visible disunity, we cannot understand you.&quot; March, 1827, vol. 4.</i> </p>
<p>OF THE BAPTIST&#039;S BAPTISM: </p>
<p><b>Besides, immersion gives a constitutional right of citizenship in the universal kingdom of Jesus;<br />
whereas with our opponents, themselves being judges, their &quot;baptism&quot; gives the rights of citizenship<br />
only in some provinces of that kingdom.</b> </p>
<p>That is why a Church of Christ type would not be accepted if they believed <a href='http://biblefox.com/bible/acts+2%3A38' class='bible-tip bible-tip-acts_2%3A38'>Acts 2:38</a> as written.  In my 79ish years one would be asked what they understood about their baptism to make sure that they are happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6175</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 17:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6175</guid>
		<description>The good news:  I did a lot of reading of Alexander Campbell&#8217;s works today.  The bad news:  I didn&#8217;t complete my honey-do list.  I guess I&#8217;ll have to deal with that one later. 
 
It seems that A. Campbell received a lot of flack for writing that response that was quoted by Royce.  He tried to retract (explain) what he said on several occasions shortly thereafter. 
 
He seems to use adult immersion for the forgiveness of sins as a line for fellowship:  &#8220;baptism: for the sake of union among Christians, it may be easily shown to be the duty of all believers to be immersed&#8221;. 
 
Furthermore he states: 
&#8220;The case is this:  When I see a person who would die for Christ; whose brotherly kindness, sympathy, and active benevolence know no bounds but his circumstances; &#8230; because he never happened to inquire, but always took it for granted that he had been scripturally baptized; &#8230; I feel no disposition to flatter such a one; but rather to disabuse him of his error.&#8221; 
 
He does seem to understand that God may apply his grace to the ignorant and thus Campbell left open other possibilities.  But that should not give anyone a false confidence, &#8220;Now, in our judgment, there is not on earth a person who can have as full an assurance of justification or of remission of sins, as the person who has believed, confessed his faith, and been intelligently buried and raised with the Lord.&quot; 
 
With that said, Campbell made it clear that anyone not immersed for forgiveness of sins is in error. 
 
All quotes from The Millennial Harbinger, December 1837, pp 564-565 as reprinted by College Press. 
This is available on Google Books. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The good news:  I did a lot of reading of Alexander Campbell&rsquo;s works today.  The bad news:  I didn&rsquo;t complete my honey-do list.  I guess I&rsquo;ll have to deal with that one later. </p>
<p>It seems that A. Campbell received a lot of flack for writing that response that was quoted by Royce.  He tried to retract (explain) what he said on several occasions shortly thereafter. </p>
<p>He seems to use adult immersion for the forgiveness of sins as a line for fellowship:  &ldquo;baptism: for the sake of union among Christians, it may be easily shown to be the duty of all believers to be immersed&rdquo;. </p>
<p>Furthermore he states:<br />
&ldquo;The case is this:  When I see a person who would die for Christ; whose brotherly kindness, sympathy, and active benevolence know no bounds but his circumstances; &hellip; because he never happened to inquire, but always took it for granted that he had been scripturally baptized; &hellip; I feel no disposition to flatter such a one; but rather to disabuse him of his error.&rdquo; </p>
<p>He does seem to understand that God may apply his grace to the ignorant and thus Campbell left open other possibilities.  But that should not give anyone a false confidence, &ldquo;Now, in our judgment, there is not on earth a person who can have as full an assurance of justification or of remission of sins, as the person who has believed, confessed his faith, and been intelligently buried and raised with the Lord.&quot; </p>
<p>With that said, Campbell made it clear that anyone not immersed for forgiveness of sins is in error. </p>
<p>All quotes from The Millennial Harbinger, December 1837, pp 564-565 as reprinted by College Press.<br />
This is available on Google Books.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6174</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 17:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6174</guid>
		<description>I appreciated Royce&#039;s quotes also.  For me, it&#039;s not a matter of relying on these quotes for my beliefs.  Rather, the quotes help to establish the historical truth about how significantly the doctrine of fellowship changed between, say, Thomas Campbell and Austin McGary... or Daniel Sommer.  It really was a 180 degree reversal. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciated Royce&#039;s quotes also.  For me, it&#039;s not a matter of relying on these quotes for my beliefs.  Rather, the quotes help to establish the historical truth about how significantly the doctrine of fellowship changed between, say, Thomas Campbell and Austin McGary&#8230; or Daniel Sommer.  It really was a 180 degree reversal.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6173</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 15:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6173</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information concerning Campbell and others.  I was hoping to see quotes from later years.  I know his thoughts progressed with time.  I always want to know the facts, so you have given me something to pursue. 
 
I don&#039;t base my understanding of the Bible on what Campbell or others say.  But they are good reference. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information concerning Campbell and others.  I was hoping to see quotes from later years.  I know his thoughts progressed with time.  I always want to know the facts, so you have given me something to pursue. </p>
<p>I don&#039;t base my understanding of the Bible on what Campbell or others say.  But they are good reference.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6172</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 13:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6172</guid>
		<description>Rich, 
 
For many years, there&#039;s been considerable disinformation spread about Alexander and Thomas Campbell in an effort to make them fit the 20th Century doctrinal mold. I&#039;ve been told in the last month that Alexander Campbell retreated from his position stated in the Lunenburg letter later. He never did. Nor did he retreat from the Richmond correspondence where he insisted that Baptists not be rebaptized. 
 
Some have argued that his support for the missionary society was the product of old age and sickness, but he campaigned vigorously for a national missionary society. The truly telling fact is that his church was part of an association of churches that sent Walter Scott out as the Restoration Movement&#039;s first missionary -- while he was still quite young. It was during this mission campaign that Scott began preaching the 5-finger plan of salvation to great effect. 
 
The best resource is Leroy Garrett&#039;s The Stone-Campbell Movement, which is very well written and very well documented. Also excellent is James Deforest Murch&#039;s Christians Only, written from the Christian Church perspective. These are by far the two best and most honest treatments of our history. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, </p>
<p>For many years, there&#039;s been considerable disinformation spread about Alexander and Thomas Campbell in an effort to make them fit the 20th Century doctrinal mold. I&#039;ve been told in the last month that Alexander Campbell retreated from his position stated in the Lunenburg letter later. He never did. Nor did he retreat from the Richmond correspondence where he insisted that Baptists not be rebaptized. </p>
<p>Some have argued that his support for the missionary society was the product of old age and sickness, but he campaigned vigorously for a national missionary society. The truly telling fact is that his church was part of an association of churches that sent Walter Scott out as the Restoration Movement&#039;s first missionary &#8212; while he was still quite young. It was during this mission campaign that Scott began preaching the 5-finger plan of salvation to great effect. </p>
<p>The best resource is Leroy Garrett&#039;s The Stone-Campbell Movement, which is very well written and very well documented. Also excellent is James Deforest Murch&#039;s Christians Only, written from the Christian Church perspective. These are by far the two best and most honest treatments of our history.</p>
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		<title>By: Royce</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6171</link>
		<dc:creator>Royce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 10:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6171</guid>
		<description>ALEXANDER CAMPBELL wrote: &#8220;But who is a Christian? I answer, every one that believes in his heart that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of God; repents of his sins, and obeys him in all things according to his measure of knowledge of his will. . . . I cannot make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and [cannot] in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their own knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven. Should I find a Pedobaptist [one baptized as an infant] more intelligent in the Christian Scriptures, more spiritually-minded and more devoted to the Lord than a Baptist, or one immersed on a profession of the ancient faith, I could not hesitate a moment in giving the preference of my heart to him that loveth most. Did I act otherwise, I would be a pure sectarian, a Pharisee among Christians.&#8221; (Millennial Harbinger, 1837, p. 411-412.) 
 
Again, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL wrote: &#8220;The case is this: When I see a person who would die for Christ: whose brotherly kindness, sympathy, and active benevolence knows no bounds but his circumstances: whose seat in the Christian assembly is never empty; whose inward piety and devotion are attested by punctual obedience to every known duty; whose family is educated in the fear of the Lord; whose constant companion is the Bible; I say, when I see such a one ranked amongst heathen men and publicans, because he never happened to inquire, but always took it for granted that he had been scripturally baptized, and that [ranking] too, by one greatly destitute of all these public and private virtues, whose chief or exclusive recommendation is that he has been immersed, and that he holds a scriptural theory of the gospel, I feel no disposition to flatter such a one, but rather to disabuse him of his error. And while I would not lead the most excellent professor in any sect to disparage the least of all the commandments of Jesus, I would say to my immersed brother as Paul said to his Jewish brother who gloried in a system which he did not adorn: &#8216;Sir, will not his uncircumcision, or unbaptism, be counted to him for baptism? and will he not condemn you, who, though having the literal and true baptism, yet dost transgress or neglect the statues of your King?&#8217;&#8221; (Millennial Harbinger, 1837, p. 565.) 
 
BARTON W. STONE wrote: &#8220;My opinion is that immersion is the only baptism. But shall I therefore make my opinion a term of Christian fellowship? If in this case I thus act, where shall I cease from making my opinions terms of fellowship? I confess I see no end. . . . Let us still acknowledge all to be brethren, who believe in the Lord Jesus, and humbly and honestly obey him, as far as they know his will, and their duty.&#8221; (Christian Messenger, 1831, p. 19, 21.) 
 
WALTER SCOTT wrote: &#8220;Christians who have not been baptized for the remission of their sins! Strange! Whoever read of such Christians in God&#8217;s Word? But the times are peculiar, and as faith does purify the life of a man, and as the man of pure life and pure heart is accepted of God and may receive the Spirit, therefore we must allow, that there are now a days Christians in heart and life who have not been baptized for the remission of their sins. What evidences, then, have they for themselves and others, that they are possessed of the Spirit? None but the moral graces which have already been quoted, viz: love, joy etc.; they don&#8217;t need to depend upon an opinion; they feel within themselves and show to those without them by their fruits, that they have been made partakers of the Spirit of Christ.&#8221; (The Evangelist, No. 2, Vol. 2, Feb 4, 1833, p. 49.) 
 
Well, there you go. 
Royce </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ALEXANDER CAMPBELL wrote: &ldquo;But who is a Christian? I answer, every one that believes in his heart that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of God; repents of his sins, and obeys him in all things according to his measure of knowledge of his will. . . . I cannot make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and [cannot] in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their own knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven. Should I find a Pedobaptist [one baptized as an infant] more intelligent in the Christian Scriptures, more spiritually-minded and more devoted to the Lord than a Baptist, or one immersed on a profession of the ancient faith, I could not hesitate a moment in giving the preference of my heart to him that loveth most. Did I act otherwise, I would be a pure sectarian, a Pharisee among Christians.&rdquo; (Millennial Harbinger, 1837, p. 411-412.) </p>
<p>Again, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL wrote: &ldquo;The case is this: When I see a person who would die for Christ: whose brotherly kindness, sympathy, and active benevolence knows no bounds but his circumstances: whose seat in the Christian assembly is never empty; whose inward piety and devotion are attested by punctual obedience to every known duty; whose family is educated in the fear of the Lord; whose constant companion is the Bible; I say, when I see such a one ranked amongst heathen men and publicans, because he never happened to inquire, but always took it for granted that he had been scripturally baptized, and that [ranking] too, by one greatly destitute of all these public and private virtues, whose chief or exclusive recommendation is that he has been immersed, and that he holds a scriptural theory of the gospel, I feel no disposition to flatter such a one, but rather to disabuse him of his error. And while I would not lead the most excellent professor in any sect to disparage the least of all the commandments of Jesus, I would say to my immersed brother as Paul said to his Jewish brother who gloried in a system which he did not adorn: &lsquo;Sir, will not his uncircumcision, or unbaptism, be counted to him for baptism? and will he not condemn you, who, though having the literal and true baptism, yet dost transgress or neglect the statues of your King?&rsquo;&rdquo; (Millennial Harbinger, 1837, p. 565.) </p>
<p>BARTON W. STONE wrote: &ldquo;My opinion is that immersion is the only baptism. But shall I therefore make my opinion a term of Christian fellowship? If in this case I thus act, where shall I cease from making my opinions terms of fellowship? I confess I see no end. . . . Let us still acknowledge all to be brethren, who believe in the Lord Jesus, and humbly and honestly obey him, as far as they know his will, and their duty.&rdquo; (Christian Messenger, 1831, p. 19, 21.) </p>
<p>WALTER SCOTT wrote: &ldquo;Christians who have not been baptized for the remission of their sins! Strange! Whoever read of such Christians in God&rsquo;s Word? But the times are peculiar, and as faith does purify the life of a man, and as the man of pure life and pure heart is accepted of God and may receive the Spirit, therefore we must allow, that there are now a days Christians in heart and life who have not been baptized for the remission of their sins. What evidences, then, have they for themselves and others, that they are possessed of the Spirit? None but the moral graces which have already been quoted, viz: love, joy etc.; they don&rsquo;t need to depend upon an opinion; they feel within themselves and show to those without them by their fruits, that they have been made partakers of the Spirit of Christ.&rdquo; (The Evangelist, No. 2, Vol. 2, Feb 4, 1833, p. 49.) </p>
<p>Well, there you go.<br />
Royce</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/05/ceni-the-laws-behind-the-curtain/#comment-6170</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 10:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=4622#comment-6170</guid>
		<description>Rich asked: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Please help me understand. You are saying that Campbell never believed that adult baptism was required for forgiveness of sins and thus also not required to enter heaven?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
I&#039;m referring to what Thomas Campbell wrote in the Declaration and Address. Introducing the thirteen propositions for unity, he said: 
&lt;blockquote&gt; Let none imagine that the subjoined propositions are at all intended as an overture towards a new creed, or standard, for the church;  	or, as in any wise designed to be made a term of communion;--nothing can be farther from our intention.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
That applied to all thirteen propositions, in particular to this statement in proposition eleven: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Lastly, that in all their administrations they keep close by the observance of all divine ordinances, after the example of the primitive church, exhibited in the New Testament; without any additions whatsoever of human opinions or inventions of men.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
Thomas Campbell clearly did not intend for that to become&quot;a new creed, or standard, for the church&quot; nor &quot;a term of communion.&quot;  For several decades that was the understanding that guided the Restoration Movement.  But an obvious change occurred somewhere around the middle of the 1800&#039;s. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich asked: </p>
<blockquote><p>Please help me understand. You are saying that Campbell never believed that adult baptism was required for forgiveness of sins and thus also not required to enter heaven?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#039;m referring to what Thomas Campbell wrote in the Declaration and Address. Introducing the thirteen propositions for unity, he said: </p>
<blockquote><p> Let none imagine that the subjoined propositions are at all intended as an overture towards a new creed, or standard, for the church;  	or, as in any wise designed to be made a term of communion;&#8211;nothing can be farther from our intention.</p></blockquote>
<p>That applied to all thirteen propositions, in particular to this statement in proposition eleven: </p>
<blockquote><p>Lastly, that in all their administrations they keep close by the observance of all divine ordinances, after the example of the primitive church, exhibited in the New Testament; without any additions whatsoever of human opinions or inventions of men.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thomas Campbell clearly did not intend for that to become&quot;a new creed, or standard, for the church&quot; nor &quot;a term of communion.&quot;  For several decades that was the understanding that guided the Restoration Movement.  But an obvious change occurred somewhere around the middle of the 1800&#039;s.</p>
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