Comments on: Backgrounds of the Restoration Movement: Gnosticism, Part 1 http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/ Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:16:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: R.J. http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6880 R.J. Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:56:00 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6880 The Gnostics derived the creation-is-evil concept mostly from Socrates and Plato-Both intimate associates(Plato studied at the feet of Socrates). They view the demirge(some even deified this concept) as once good but devolved into an imperfect vile state. It's only purpose was to hint at that which was spiritual. Thus they strongly advocated an abstinence of material things and concepts to obtain true happiness(become truly spiritual). Mysticism, Gnosticism, Esotericism, and Asceticism all owe their existence partly to these Greek philosophers. The Gnostics derived the creation-is-evil concept mostly from Socrates and Plato-Both intimate associates(Plato studied at the feet of Socrates). They view the demirge(some even deified this concept) as once good but devolved into an imperfect vile state. It's only purpose was to hint at that which was spiritual. Thus they strongly advocated an abstinence of material things and concepts to obtain true happiness(become truly spiritual).

Mysticism, Gnosticism, Esotericism, and Asceticism all owe their existence partly to these Greek philosophers.

]]> By: R.J. http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6879 R.J. Sat, 12 Mar 2011 02:55:00 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6879 I think that Plotonis(the father of Neoplatonism) falsely claimed to restore Platonic thought. In actuality, I think he toned it down to a more acceptable level(e.g. the created world was no longer looked upon as imperfect). This would partly explain his attacks against Gnosticism in the third century A.D. I think that Plotonis(the father of Neoplatonism) falsely claimed to restore Platonic thought. In actuality, I think he toned it down to a more acceptable level(e.g. the created world was no longer looked upon as imperfect). This would partly explain his attacks against Gnosticism in the third century A.D.

]]> By: The Fork in the Road: “Will Worship” « One In Jesus.info http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6878 The Fork in the Road: “Will Worship” « One In Jesus.info Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:02:21 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6878 [...] Paul’s concern is broader than Judaism. The worship of angels was hardly typical of a First Century Jew, and so the commentators are inclined to conclude this was a practice pecular to Colosse. And there was something about this practice that led to asceticism — a Grecian approach to religion that later came to typify Gnosticism. [...] [...] Paul’s concern is broader than Judaism. The worship of angels was hardly typical of a First Century Jew, and so the commentators are inclined to conclude this was a practice pecular to Colosse. And there was something about this practice that led to asceticism — a Grecian approach to religion that later came to typify Gnosticism. [...]

]]> By: Randall http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6877 Randall Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:36:52 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6877 Gary, I do love my family, both the traditionalist and others - I just can;t be around the traditionalists very much. Like you, I consider Leroy Garrett a personal friend even though I have been able to spend only a few hours at a time with him since i departed Texas i the late 1980s. In my family I learned the gospel - that God loves me though I am a horrible sinner and that Jesus died for me knowing full well who I was. In spite of the way we distorted it the gospel was still there in the scripture. I learned to read, mediate on and trust scripture and use it to guide my way. - the objective standard against which I hope to measure all things. So many good things in the CofC; and yet, so many distortions of the simple message and so many convoluted arguments to justify such nonsense. For years I felt obligated and even called to minister to them - that is to try to present the gospel in the CofC. God has relieved me of hat burden and led many others to that work. i look forward to using the gifts he has given me in my extended family now as they also minister to me. None the less I will still be interested in news from home and how my first family is doing. May God bless them everyone. May God also bless you in service Him as he leads you. Randall Gary,
I do love my family, both the traditionalist and others – I just can;t be around the traditionalists very much. Like you, I consider Leroy Garrett a personal friend even though I have been able to spend only a few hours at a time with him since i departed Texas i the late 1980s.

In my family I learned the gospel – that God loves me though I am a horrible sinner and that Jesus died for me knowing full well who I was. In spite of the way we distorted it the gospel was still there in the scripture. I learned to read, mediate on and trust scripture and use it to guide my way. – the objective standard against which I hope to measure all things.

So many good things in the CofC; and yet, so many distortions of the simple message and so many convoluted arguments to justify such nonsense. For years I felt obligated and even called to minister to them – that is to try to present the gospel in the CofC.

God has relieved me of hat burden and led many others to that work. i look forward to using the gifts he has given me in my extended family now as they also minister to me. None the less I will still be interested in news from home and how my first family is doing. May God bless them everyone.

May God also bless you in service Him as he leads you.
Randall

]]> By: Trent Tanaro http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6876 Trent Tanaro Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:52:53 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6876 Awsesome!!..This changes everything!!....I have been in the research of this arena for some time, it indeed is refreshing!! Thanks Jay!! Trent Awsesome!!..This changes everything!!….I have been in the research of this arena for some time, it indeed is refreshing!! Thanks Jay!!

Trent

]]> By: comyndoc@yahoo.com http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6875 comyndoc@yahoo.com Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:55:18 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6875 Dear Randall, I know too well what you mean. After I spent 2 years at Brite Divinity School in Ft. Worth, Texas, there was no chance of my return even to a somewhat "liberal" and "liberated" COC in 1974. That was true in 1978, when I became friends with old brother Leroy Garrett, a very great man (and he knows it!). I love him anyway. The COC was my adoptive family of faith in 1965, after spending a couple years in a Baptist Church, which is where I first came to faith in Jesus in 1964, but never considered myself a Baptist. You are right. It is not very healthy to hang around the traditionalists, who are in ignorant bliss about they believe, they only know what they don't believe on the basis of CENI interpretation. I went to Ft. Worth Christian College with Mac Deaver. He was a brilliant preacher and debated then, and I was impressed by him and his father, as I was very young in the faith. I imbided all the sectarianism and became as legalist as any till about 1970. That is when I quit preaching for the COC, and did alternative service and went to seminary. I left in 1971, and it took me over 20 years to shake most of the residue off. I am glad I studied for 4 years and read the Bible, and learned a few ways and tools to examine the Revelation of God-the Bible. At least I had a few tools for study, much of what I have rejected since. I appreciate the good, and I try to forget the bad (which was most of my experience with the COC). God bless you, Gary Dear Randall,

I know too well what you mean. After I spent 2 years at Brite Divinity School in Ft. Worth, Texas, there was no chance of my return even to a somewhat "liberal" and "liberated" COC in 1974. That was true in 1978, when I became friends with old brother Leroy Garrett, a very great man (and he knows it!). I love him anyway.

The COC was my adoptive family of faith in 1965, after spending a couple years in a Baptist Church, which is where I first came to faith in Jesus in 1964, but never considered myself a Baptist.

You are right. It is not very healthy to hang around the traditionalists, who are in ignorant bliss about they believe, they only know what they don't believe on the basis of CENI interpretation. I went to Ft. Worth Christian College with Mac Deaver. He was a brilliant preacher and debated then, and I was impressed by him and his father, as I was very young in the faith. I imbided all the sectarianism and became as legalist as any till about 1970. That is when I quit preaching for the COC, and did alternative service and went to seminary. I left in 1971, and it took me over 20 years to shake most of the residue off. I am glad I studied for 4 years and read the Bible, and learned a few ways and tools to examine the Revelation of God-the Bible. At least I had a few tools for study, much of what I have rejected since. I appreciate the good, and I try to forget the bad (which was most of my experience with the COC).

God bless you,
Gary

]]> By: Randall http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6874 Randall Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:50:50 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6874 Gary, I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You should understand that not only is the resurrection of the body not accepted as it should be but even the concept of theology is not well accepted. I have had elders in a large CofC (that considered itself "progressive") tell me that theology is a bad word. For decades the only mention of systematic theology in class or from the pulpit was to ridicule it. You might notice that even among the progressives being missional is great but being theological is often irrelevant at best and often times even worse than irrelevant. Our lack of understanding is exceeded only by our disinterest in truly understanding biblical teaching. We have abused the word "doctrine" for so long that many otherwise intelligence people now think doctrine is a bad word w/o realizing their position is self contradictory. You may be able to understand that I have finally given up on the CofC. There are now enough progressives to carry on and I am simply too tired to spend my retirement years fighting the traditionalists any longer. Even the "progressives" don't believe in the unconditional love of the LORD and know better than to teach it. Of course, the CofC is still my family and I will continue to read news of my extended family. No matter how dysfunctional (even abusive) my family may be I will continue to love them read news from home. I just won't spend as much time with them as it is not healthy. Peace, Randall Gary,
I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You should understand that not only is the resurrection of the body not accepted as it should be but even the concept of theology is not well accepted. I have had elders in a large CofC (that considered itself "progressive") tell me that theology is a bad word. For decades the only mention of systematic theology in class or from the pulpit was to ridicule it.

You might notice that even among the progressives being missional is great but being theological is often irrelevant at best and often times even worse than irrelevant.

Our lack of understanding is exceeded only by our disinterest in truly understanding biblical teaching. We have abused the word "doctrine" for so long that many otherwise intelligence people now think doctrine is a bad word w/o realizing their position is self contradictory.

You may be able to understand that I have finally given up on the CofC. There are now enough progressives to carry on and I am simply too tired to spend my retirement years fighting the traditionalists any longer. Even the "progressives" don't believe in the unconditional love of the LORD and know better than to teach it. Of course, the CofC is still my family and I will continue to read news of my extended family. No matter how dysfunctional (even abusive) my family may be I will continue to love them read news from home. I just won't spend as much time with them as it is not healthy.
Peace,
Randall

]]> By: nick gill http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6873 nick gill Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:41:25 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6873 Gary, Most COC people I've talked eschatology with believe in the bodily resurrection of JESUS, but also 1) they assume that his body stopped being tangible, etc., at the Ascension, 2) his body was ONLY raised to prove he was the Son of God to the disciples and the Jews, and 3) when we are raised, we'll skip the embodied stage Jesus went through, because Peter says creation will be annihilated anyway. I believe it is an uneasy wedding of Platonism/Gnosticism with ancient Judeo-Christian incarnated eschatology. "We know creation is bad now, and we're all going to heaven where only spirits live, but Paul and the gospel writers talk about Jesus' resurrection body SO MUCH that we can't just ignore it." Gary,

Most COC people I've talked eschatology with believe in the bodily resurrection of JESUS, but also 1) they assume that his body stopped being tangible, etc., at the Ascension, 2) his body was ONLY raised to prove he was the Son of God to the disciples and the Jews, and 3) when we are raised, we'll skip the embodied stage Jesus went through, because Peter says creation will be annihilated anyway.

I believe it is an uneasy wedding of Platonism/Gnosticism with ancient Judeo-Christian incarnated eschatology. "We know creation is bad now, and we're all going to heaven where only spirits live, but Paul and the gospel writers talk about Jesus' resurrection body SO MUCH that we can't just ignore it."

]]> By: Gary Cummings http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6872 Gary Cummings Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:41:08 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6872 Randall and Jay and All, I have to admit I am shocked by this. I guess I just assumed all these years that the COC part of the Restoration movement believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. This may explain a lot: missionaries who beat each other up over doctrine, perverts in the pulpit, and very contentious people as elders, and duplicitous members. If Christ is not risen (in His body as taught by Paul), we are still in our sins and not saved. If one does not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, then that person is not saved, not even if they are baptized "correctly". A church of unsaved people claiming to be the "one true church" is scary and evil. I think this conversation is probably the most important one we have stumbled across. Polls should be done and questionnaires sent out and elders and preachers given a short course in systematic theology first, and then a massive preaching campaign in all Churches of Christ should take place to expose this problem and call a false church to repentance-IF it is a significant problem. Gary Randall and Jay and All,
I have to admit I am shocked by this. I guess I just assumed all these years that the COC part of the Restoration movement believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. This may explain a lot: missionaries who beat each other up over doctrine, perverts in the pulpit, and very contentious people as elders, and duplicitous members. If Christ is not risen (in His body as taught by Paul), we are still in our sins and not saved. If one does not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, then that person is not saved, not even if they are baptized "correctly". A church of unsaved people claiming to be the "one true church" is scary and evil.
I think this conversation is probably the most important one we have stumbled across. Polls should be done and questionnaires sent out and elders and preachers given a short course in systematic theology first, and then a massive preaching campaign in all Churches of Christ should take place to expose this problem and call a false church to repentance-IF it is a significant problem.

Gary

]]> By: Jay Guin http://oneinjesus.info/2009/06/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-gnosticism-part-1/#comment-6871 Jay Guin Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:02:17 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=5325#comment-6871 I'm not familiar with that book, but the reviews on Amazon are pretty glowing. I've added it to my wish list. I'm not familiar with that book, but the reviews on Amazon are pretty glowing. I've added it to my wish list.

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