Comments on: Backgrounds of the Restoration Movement: Baptism, Primitivism, and Heresy, Part 1 http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1 Fri, 25 May 2012 01:49:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Doug Fiscus http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7835 Doug Fiscus Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:04:15 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7835 Great to read all the comments. My father enjoyed reading about the movement. He often talked about it with whoever would listen. That is the key! Jesus prayed to his Heavenly Father for and about US! That is the point of John 17. The form is not what the founders of the reformation agreed on. They removed barriers of practice, thoughts, convention, social, politcal, economic, Worldly! Unity a Christian follows his name sake. The Christ! Where ever you find a follower of Christ you have a Christian. Not a sect, denomination. All other discussions miss the point that only followers of Christ are saved! God chooses who he accepts and in the prayer for us that is defined. We are not the world. We are Christians! Great to read all the comments. My father enjoyed reading about the movement. He often talked about it with whoever would listen. That is the key! Jesus prayed to his Heavenly Father for and about US! That is the point of John 17. The form is not what the founders of the reformation agreed on. They removed barriers of practice, thoughts, convention, social, politcal, economic, Worldly! Unity a Christian follows his name sake. The Christ! Where ever you find a follower of Christ you have a Christian. Not a sect, denomination. All other discussions miss the point that only followers of Christ are saved! God chooses who he accepts and in the prayer for us that is defined. We are not the world. We are Christians!

]]> By: Donald Raby http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7834 Donald Raby Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:03:37 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7834 I have studied Campbell. I follow Christ. This discussion of what Stone or Campbell or Scott said or did seems to miss the point of following Jesus as Lord and Saviour. I learn from RC Sproul, Chuck Swindoll and Charles Spurgeon, AT Robertson and multitudes more. BUT they are all men with ideas. The final answer is found in Scripture. Did Jesus command immersion in water for his followers? YES. Can anyone follow him and reject that essential? The same test applies to any question. Love above all does not sanction error. Love demands compliance in unity to fulfil the prayer of Jesus in John 17. Thanks, Donald Raby I have studied Campbell. I follow Christ. This discussion of what Stone or Campbell or Scott said or did seems to miss the point of following Jesus as Lord and Saviour. I learn from RC Sproul, Chuck Swindoll and Charles Spurgeon, AT Robertson and multitudes more. BUT they are all men with ideas. The final answer is found in Scripture. Did Jesus command immersion in water for his followers? YES. Can anyone follow him and reject that essential?
The same test applies to any question. Love above all does not sanction error. Love demands compliance in unity to fulfil the prayer of Jesus in John 17.
Thanks, Donald Raby

]]> By: Ken http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7833 Ken Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:44:06 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7833 Joe, I don't see why convincing others of your convictions couldn't also lead to wreaking havoc. Especially when one's convictions are in a state of flux, as were Campbell's. And not in minor ways either. In fact, its obvious that Campbell's whole restoration was a work in progress. He went from a typical Presbyterian to a typical Baptist understanding of baptism to " believer's baptism for the remission of sins" to "I'm not going to hold it against people if they were never baptized" .He went from screeds against the "hireling clergy" yet started his own seminary, from anti-church association to the American Missionary Society. He went from "no creed but Christ", except the fact that Jesus was the Son of God to six facts at the end of his career. His positions changed so much that it is common lore in CoCs that Campbell went senile at the end of his life and was unduly influenced by others. And that was just one man. Multiply that over the many big name preachers: Scott, Fanning, Stone, and others. So, yeah, wreaking havoc is a good description. Ken Joe,

I don't see why convincing others of your convictions couldn't also lead to wreaking havoc. Especially when one's convictions are in a state of flux, as were Campbell's. And not in minor ways either.

In fact, its obvious that Campbell's whole restoration was a work in progress. He went from a typical Presbyterian to a typical Baptist understanding of baptism to " believer's baptism for the remission of sins" to "I'm not going to hold it against people if they were never baptized" .He went from screeds against the "hireling clergy" yet started his own seminary, from anti-church association to the American Missionary Society. He went from "no creed but Christ", except the fact that Jesus was the Son of God to six facts at the end of his career.

His positions changed so much that it is common lore in CoCs that Campbell went senile at the end of his life and was unduly influenced by others.

And that was just one man. Multiply that over the many big name preachers: Scott, Fanning, Stone, and others.

So, yeah, wreaking havoc is a good description.

Ken

]]> By: Joe Hegyi III http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7832 Joe Hegyi III Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:13:07 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7832 Following your convictions and convincing others of the same is hardly wreaking havoc. Following your convictions and convincing others of the same is hardly wreaking havoc.

]]> By: Jay Guin http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7831 Jay Guin Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:37:41 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7831 It seems to me that the conservative Churches of Christ unconsciously define "heresy" as necessarily including the doctrines that distinguish our tribe from others. Therefore, as you say, a cappella singing and weekly communion become salvation issues. I'm persuaded that the apostasy doctrine of the conservative Churches is found much more in the effort to define "others" as damned than any serious study of the scriptures. It seems to me that the conservative Churches of Christ unconsciously define "heresy" as necessarily including the doctrines that distinguish our tribe from others. Therefore, as you say, a cappella singing and weekly communion become salvation issues. I'm persuaded that the apostasy doctrine of the conservative Churches is found much more in the effort to define "others" as damned than any serious study of the scriptures.

]]> By: adam davis http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7830 adam davis Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:05:39 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7830 Randall, "Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude." CofC legalism also breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude. Randall,
"Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude."

CofC legalism also breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude.

]]> By: Randall http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7829 Randall Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:18:38 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7829 Adam, I think I read: "Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude." Do you find the Presbyterians to be more dogmatic, factious and elitist than the rest of the denominations in the USA? I am not sure the CofC gets top honors in that category but they at least come close and they are about as unCalvinistic as any group I am familiar with. Peace, Randall Adam,
I think I read: "Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude."

Do you find the Presbyterians to be more dogmatic, factious and elitist than the rest of the denominations in the USA?

I am not sure the CofC gets top honors in that category but they at least come close and they are about as unCalvinistic as any group I am familiar with.

Peace,
Randall

]]> By: adam davis http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7828 adam davis Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:45:22 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7828 Amen. I believe God has been guiding me through the Campbell writings on what is deemed heresy. My observation in the Protestant/ Evangelical world is that the word heresy is something tossed around to create division [or maintain that division which already exists] and to give a boost to one's own position. This observation has lead me to think of heresies in a different way, I just didn't know where to go. I wrote at the end of my comment on "Backgrounds....Baptism, Primitivism, and Heresy, Pt. 2" that it was ironic that those who almost worship Alexander Campbell are the ones Campbell himself would deem heretics because of the factions they have created over everything from baptism, to instrumental music, taking the Lord's Supper on Sunday and only on Sunday, and the list could go on and on. I share with what another brother said before me on that forum that he feared for those whose sectarianism was so deep that their faith was not in Christ alone, but on church affiliation and baptism [I would also add a capella singing and taking the Lord's Supper every Sunday and only on Sunday]. If Campbell's definition of heresy is correct, I too fear for such as these. One must also take into account the Calvinism in which the Restoration movement leaders were coming out of. Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude. No doubt Campbell's definition of heresy applied to the Calvinists of his day too, not because they believed in Calvinism, but because of the dogmatism, division, and elitism that comes from this system of theology. Amen. I believe God has been guiding me through the Campbell writings on what is deemed heresy. My observation in the Protestant/ Evangelical world is that the word heresy is something tossed around to create division [or maintain that division which already exists] and to give a boost to one's own position. This observation has lead me to think of heresies in a different way, I just didn't know where to go.

I wrote at the end of my comment on "Backgrounds….Baptism, Primitivism, and Heresy, Pt. 2" that it was ironic that those who almost worship Alexander Campbell are the ones Campbell himself would deem heretics because of the factions they have created over everything from baptism, to instrumental music, taking the Lord's Supper on Sunday and only on Sunday, and the list could go on and on.

I share with what another brother said before me on that forum that he feared for those whose sectarianism was so deep that their faith was not in Christ alone, but on church affiliation and baptism [I would also add a capella singing and taking the Lord's Supper every Sunday and only on Sunday]. If Campbell's definition of heresy is correct, I too fear for such as these.

One must also take into account the Calvinism in which the Restoration movement leaders were coming out of. Calvinism breeds a dogmatic, factious/divisive, elitist attitude. No doubt Campbell's definition of heresy applied to the Calvinists of his day too, not because they believed in Calvinism, but because of the dogmatism, division, and elitism that comes from this system of theology.

]]> By: Ken http://oneinjesus.info/2009/08/backgrounds-of-the-restoration-movement-baptism-primitivism-and-heresy-part-1/#comment-7827 Ken Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:56:05 +0000 http://oneinjesus.info/?p=6007#comment-7827 I think modern day CoC historians are much too nice to Campbell. The fact is that Campbell and his followers wreaked havoc among Baptist congregations in the 1820s by trying to "restore" the "ancient order". I think modern day CoC historians are much too nice to Campbell. The fact is that Campbell and his followers wreaked havoc among Baptist congregations in the 1820s by trying to "restore" the "ancient order".

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