Isn't Joe onto something? i've always wondered why people seem to take completely for granted that "elect = saved" when that doesn't seem clear to me at all.

–Guy

And as F.F. Bruce writes, the text goes on to imply that when some receive light light and others do not divine election may be discerned, operating antecedently to the will or activity of those who are its objects.

Romans 2 seems to label Christian Gentiles as Jews.

I was just getting ready to tell you how much I appreciate your setting the current passages in context when I read Randall's criticism of your doing just that. It seems that he would rather you construct a theology from a proof text rather than allowing a narrative of theology to inform your reading of a given verse. This is not surprising because he believes that's what Paul does by simply grabbing random verses from the OT to make a point, rather than considering their actual context. In fact, this would be my biggest criticism of Randall's reading of Paul. Paul, more than anyone, is always aware of the larger context of his quotes and doesn't use the text flippantly for illustrative purposes. I would recommed Richard Hays' Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul be read for a deeper appreciation of Paul's reading of Scripture.

All of us that have faith may be regarded as Abraham's children, but we are not Jews nor children of Israel. In scripture I don't recall Israel ever referring to anything other than Israel. (Yes, I am familiar with the disputed translation the NIV gives to one of the last verses of Galatians – verse 16 – and note that it differs from all the translation of that verse in all the other standard translations.)

If the promises God made to Israel are not to be understood for their plain sense meaning to Israel, that is, that they really apply to the church in a different age rather than to Israel; then how much confidence can the church have that promises made to the church can be accepted for their plain sense meaning to the church? Perhaps they actually apply to some other people of God that are not yet identified. Some are most disappointed in this type of treatment of the text. Furthermore, Paul continues his discussion of Israel through chapter 11 and concludes it with the suggestion that Israel will accept their messiah and be grafted back into their own olive tree – when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled and thus all Israel will be saved; and Paul then praises God for his plan and his unfathomable ways.

I would challenge every blogger to read Romans 9-11 as a whole and note Paul's assertion that a hardening has come upon Israel and that they are our enemies from the standpoint of the gospel, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable and mercy will be shown to them. This passage does NOT say the church is the new Israel! and it does NOT say that God is only talking about nations rather than individuals – not to mention that nations are made up of individuals. If anyone should apply this type of understanding of scripture to a passage like Acts 2:38 (or most of the NT, except for the Revelation) we would be at a complete loss as to understand their reasoning.

As was mentioned in a previous comment, the reference to Jacob and Esau in its OT context may well refer to nations rather than individuals. But Paul does not use the text in that way here; and Paul frequently uses quotes the OT to make a point that has little to do with the original context. Here in Romans 9 he mentions a long string of individuals and the reference to Esau no more refers only to the nation of Edom than the reference to Pharaoh refers to the nation of Egypt rather than to Pharaoh himself. I doubt many in the CofC have read enough of Piper to be familiar with Piper's discussion of Romans 9, but they would be wise to read and at least consider it for a moment.

The NT also has more to say about Esau than we find in this post. Though God may have blessed him with great wealth it would appear that he did not bless him with salvation nor true repentance. Hagar and Ismael were also blessed by God in many ways, but they were never chosen the way Issac was.