Are you seroius? "Not a single thing happens merely by his permission but by his sovereign decree." God decreed the Holocaust? He decreed Adam and Eve's sin? He decreed 9/11?

If God forces me to love him, it is Him loving Him and it is beyond foolish for Him to command me to do what He is either going to force me to do or not.

The glory of God is man fully alive – and that means free to rebel, just as a bride is free to rebel against the bridegroom.

You make a classic mistake trying to use Satan's common sense as a guide to understanding God's creation. Satan doesn't make sense because Satan is deceived he himself has free will and can do as He pleases. Nothing he does has any logic to it at all in Christ. Why in the world would Satan temp Christ? Does that make sense? Delving into the mind of Satan is worthless. Whatever wisdom he had God has destroyed in the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You can't use the actions and supposed motivation of the damned as any sort of guide to understanding God as Truth.

The passage from Hebrews is speaking of universal sanctification, which even the wicked receive, but not for the same purpose of the elect. It speaks of God having purchased them to himself as their rightful king and the effects of their lack of grace unto salvation we as elect receive. No where in there is any mention of un-birth or death of the elect.

You appeal to free will when you place eternal salvation in the hands of the saved. The fact is that God Himself looks after us. Our salvation is in His hands. So merely trying to get people to adhere to an ideal model of behavior as a means of constantly re-choosing a Christian life over some other is simply trying to control people. There is an absolute difference between what is necessary for salvation and a system of control over people.

As for supposedly having the free will to keep re-choosing the correct ideal model of behavior, it does not exist.

You cannot go into the Bible and pull out free will or a lie that says part of the body of Christ appears ..and then disappears as 'falling away' unless you first define all speech as will-neutral and deny the distinction between the Word of God and Satan's speech. You have to say there is only one speech Satan and God are using, that speech has standard qualities, and must at all times NOT be spirit and life so that it remains will-neutral to the reader. Then and only then can you patiently roll your eyes and say "But it says right here…!" and pretend the purpose of speech is to exchange will-neutral 'holy info' and God speaking at all is supposedly pointless if you don't have free will.

All of your misunderstanding of Perseverance of the Saints comes from not understanding the distinction between the non-creating speech of Satan and God as Creating Word ..that Spoke and it was created…. Seeking to equate them as one large meta speech they both supposed use is fatal to understanding Jesus Christ as Word of God and all truth in Him.

I posted a article on perseverance of the saints on my blog, ..christianclarityreview.wordpress.com.. "Cult Buster: Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the Saints" .. but we can do more of the conversation here if you like..

as for Job, Christ said for Job through Job: that perfroms the details of Jobs life. That would include salvation. Job's fear is holy, appropriate fear.

Job 23:13-15 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.

timothy

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

God is full of allowances and prohibitions. Babel: prohibited. Some of our choices are just as idolatrous, yet He allows them. The crowd killing Jesus before it was time: prohibited. Pharaoh's torture of the Israelites, allowed. Pain, suffering, and success. All directly influenced by God.

Even as "evil" fathers (as Jesus referred to us), we know (or should know, from our relationship with God) how to train our children, whether protecting them from harm, or allowing them to stretch their wings so they may fail until they succeed. I am vigilante about my kid's safety. They have free moral agency; and also, they don't get to act on much of it, because I say so, protecting them from what they can't understand. Some things I allow, so they can learn to understand. Some things are rooted in the purposes that God has wired into them, and those get a resounding "Yes!" from me.

How much more God! In His goodness He allows to join with Him in bringing the Kingdom to the earth. We have free moral agency, but the ability to execute those ideas lay within His hands:

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends, even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart, a man plans his course; but the LORD determines His steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

(Many more throughout the book. Great study.)

To some choices He will say "no" and prevent us from acting. To other choices He says, "See what happens," and we get to fall down a few times. And to yet others, He says, "Yes! And the quicker, the better!" And we are allowed to rush into His purposes for us. There are many choices, but one purpose, and that purpose will not be denied, no matter what we choose.

There were times in my young Christian life that I set my mind on sinning, and God thwarted me at every turn. Things out of my control, be it traffic jams, locked doors, or what have you. I never got to do what I planned to do. This is the perseverance I read about in the Bible. This is how – even with free moral agency – God can lead us to chose what He wants, rather than what we think we want. It is a technicality, admittedly, but that's what He does.

God is still the same now as He was when Proverbs was written. He still directs people's hearts like He directs rivers, He still allows some things, and defeats others. He does them all for His purposes, and for His glory. It's neither completely scripted, nor is it a free(will)-for-all. It is God, telling His story, for His glory. No man will violate His purposes, or bring God's plans to ruin. Not even if he decides to. The Good Shepherd will rescue the wandering sheep.

Just like Tim, I can't ignore what the Bible says, be it Old *or* New Testament.

For the record, I don't subscribe to Calvinism. It always sounds like it to those with a CofC (or similar) heritage, but Calvinists seem to find just as many faults in my beliefs. Go figure.

Most interpretation of scripture comes from our preconceived notions. If we see God as angry, we'll read the Bible that way. If we believe salvation can be lost, we will read it that way as well. Paul understood this, and said when people in the church believe different things about the same issue, God himself will show us the correct way. I believe that for me as well as for you, as I have been in much prayer about this today.

People who have been taught God’s salvation isn’t secure chose to cling to that teaching.