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	<title>Comments on: Overseeing the Moderate Church: Part 3</title>
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		<title>By: Nick Gill</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9424</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9424</guid>
		<description>Jack, that series is now completed as a four-volume set, and it is indeed excellent. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack, that series is now completed as a four-volume set, and it is indeed excellent.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Exum Jr</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Exum Jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9423</guid>
		<description>Hey guys, 
I found a book of interest in all this which is very helpful. &quot;The Crux of the matter&quot;(Crisis, Tradition and the future of the COC). It is the first in a series (I hope) of the &quot;Heart of the restoration series&quot; by the ACU Press. I am not finished with it yet, but it is helpful in further understanding our roots, and how to move forward. Three wirters put it together, Jeff Childers, Douglas Foster, and Jack Reese. Anyway, check it out. It&#039;s worth it. 
Jack </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey guys,<br />
I found a book of interest in all this which is very helpful. &quot;The Crux of the matter&quot;(Crisis, Tradition and the future of the COC). It is the first in a series (I hope) of the &quot;Heart of the restoration series&quot; by the ACU Press. I am not finished with it yet, but it is helpful in further understanding our roots, and how to move forward. Three wirters put it together, Jeff Childers, Douglas Foster, and Jack Reese. Anyway, check it out. It&#039;s worth it.<br />
Jack</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Roe</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9422</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Roe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9422</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Alan. I chose poorly this time. Your encouragement and guidance is appreciated more than you know and will be followed prayerfully. Thank God for His grace. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Alan. I chose poorly this time. Your encouragement and guidance is appreciated more than you know and will be followed prayerfully. Thank God for His grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9421</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9421</guid>
		<description>Neal wrote: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;How can we confront disagreements when we are so adept at taking sides?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
There is a culture of intolerance in the church -- intolerance for disagreement.   Disagreement is scary.  People are afraid of where it might lead, and they want to eliminate the disagreement so they can return to the comfort of uniformity as quickly as possible.  They see the elders as having the responsibility to purge the disagreements, by all means necessary. 
 
Those are real emotions and are not motivated by evil intentions.  Elders and ministers should teach the congregation a better way to deal with disagreements.  But often they don&#039;t know a better way either. 
 
Knowing this, one has to carefully choose when and where (and how, and whether) to voice a disagreement.  That&#039;s not a great situation to be in, but it&#039;s often a fact.  Sometimes it really is better to keep what you think about a matter between yourself and God, because you consider the likely outcome of not doing so.  Sometimes it is better to hold your thoughts and to speak to an elder or minister in private about it. 
 
Most of us probably need to grow in our discernment about what is best in situations like that.  I know I do. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neal wrote: </p>
<blockquote><p>How can we confront disagreements when we are so adept at taking sides?</p></blockquote>
<p>There is a culture of intolerance in the church &#8212; intolerance for disagreement.   Disagreement is scary.  People are afraid of where it might lead, and they want to eliminate the disagreement so they can return to the comfort of uniformity as quickly as possible.  They see the elders as having the responsibility to purge the disagreements, by all means necessary. </p>
<p>Those are real emotions and are not motivated by evil intentions.  Elders and ministers should teach the congregation a better way to deal with disagreements.  But often they don&#039;t know a better way either. </p>
<p>Knowing this, one has to carefully choose when and where (and how, and whether) to voice a disagreement.  That&#039;s not a great situation to be in, but it&#039;s often a fact.  Sometimes it really is better to keep what you think about a matter between yourself and God, because you consider the likely outcome of not doing so.  Sometimes it is better to hold your thoughts and to speak to an elder or minister in private about it. </p>
<p>Most of us probably need to grow in our discernment about what is best in situations like that.  I know I do.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hegyi III</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9420</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Hegyi III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9420</guid>
		<description>Jay: 
 
I, unfortunately, grew up in one of those congregations you spoke of with the politically adept minister. And when he died things went downhill fast. They have split and then those that split then split the congregation they left us to go to and then wanted to come back to our congregation. 
 
There truly is no room for open disagreement in traditional Churches of Christ. The saddest part is that we don&#039;t even realize there is another option. We don&#039;t even see that we could accept one another in love and stop being suspicious. 
 
How can a fellowship of churches continue much longer with this as their central, foundational belief? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay: </p>
<p>I, unfortunately, grew up in one of those congregations you spoke of with the politically adept minister. And when he died things went downhill fast. They have split and then those that split then split the congregation they left us to go to and then wanted to come back to our congregation. </p>
<p>There truly is no room for open disagreement in traditional Churches of Christ. The saddest part is that we don&#039;t even realize there is another option. We don&#039;t even see that we could accept one another in love and stop being suspicious. </p>
<p>How can a fellowship of churches continue much longer with this as their central, foundational belief?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Exum Jr</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9419</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Exum Jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9419</guid>
		<description>Very true Alan. It takes time to get brethren to even trust themselves with each other, (like the Geico CEO falling back on the Gecko)... or something like that. 
But were working on it. 
Jack </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true Alan. It takes time to get brethren to even trust themselves with each other, (like the Geico CEO falling back on the Gecko)&#8230; or something like that.<br />
But were working on it.<br />
Jack</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Roe</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9418</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Roe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9418</guid>
		<description>Jay, unfortunately this is a timely post. I am in trouble with my Elders and some number of my Sunday school class. In last Sunday&#039;s class I refuted the idea of our needing to &quot;lust and covet for God&quot;. Three of us in the class upheld the idea that though the intent of &quot;desiring strongly&quot; God is wanted, the use of the words are out of step with the understanding of people today. Some number of the class either went to or were seen by our Elders and reported that I was angry and disruptive. 
 
My Elders spoke to me alone Wednesday night asking for my side. I told them I have no side but that I would tell them what I experienced and saw in the class. It went down hill from there. Both Elders brought up an incident from many weeks ago where I had disagreed with the Preacher in a class. I went to the preacher that same night and apologized, that I disagreed with the idea and not him personally. 
 
I had been scheduled to teach a class Sunday nights but declined at this point because I felt that there were too many people talking about this event and that I did not feel comfortable being in front of the class. One of the Elders stated that this action proved that I was in fact angry. I made no defense except to say that I was hurt by their not coming directly to me before gathering all of the testimony against me. We parted with no sense of encouragement. 
 
How can we confront disagreements when we are so adept at taking sides? How can we learn to discern and handle the Word when we are not allowed to disagree openly? There are only three uses of Greek that are on par with Lust in connection to our desire for God every other use is of a carnal and sinful nature. It just did not make sense. But don&#039;t disagree. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, unfortunately this is a timely post. I am in trouble with my Elders and some number of my Sunday school class. In last Sunday&#039;s class I refuted the idea of our needing to &quot;lust and covet for God&quot;. Three of us in the class upheld the idea that though the intent of &quot;desiring strongly&quot; God is wanted, the use of the words are out of step with the understanding of people today. Some number of the class either went to or were seen by our Elders and reported that I was angry and disruptive. </p>
<p>My Elders spoke to me alone Wednesday night asking for my side. I told them I have no side but that I would tell them what I experienced and saw in the class. It went down hill from there. Both Elders brought up an incident from many weeks ago where I had disagreed with the Preacher in a class. I went to the preacher that same night and apologized, that I disagreed with the idea and not him personally. </p>
<p>I had been scheduled to teach a class Sunday nights but declined at this point because I felt that there were too many people talking about this event and that I did not feel comfortable being in front of the class. One of the Elders stated that this action proved that I was in fact angry. I made no defense except to say that I was hurt by their not coming directly to me before gathering all of the testimony against me. We parted with no sense of encouragement. </p>
<p>How can we confront disagreements when we are so adept at taking sides? How can we learn to discern and handle the Word when we are not allowed to disagree openly? There are only three uses of Greek that are on par with Lust in connection to our desire for God every other use is of a carnal and sinful nature. It just did not make sense. But don&#039;t disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Exum Jr</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9417</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Exum Jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 01:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9417</guid>
		<description>Jay, 
This is an excellent series... Especially is this lesson to the exact point that the church needs to consider. 
How many of us have sat and tried to counsel with a couple who have been married for some time, but come because they have problems they cannot either deal with or handle. 
   Problems that have been considered by both, off limits, simply because of the inability to sit and talk and lay aside personality and deal with it. 
   The church today has some who prefer to keep old fires going instead of sitting down and with an open bible and open mind, simply discuss it. Without getting upset, to voicing  their views and the reasons for them, and with the heart of seeking to know the truth, to ask questions and take a look. 
   What do we do when dealing with a couple who&#039;s marriage is in trouble because of things undiscussed for years, while knowing all the time that these things are &#039;eatting them up&#039; inside. 
   We encourage them to begin by really trying to listen... a skill that many times is woefully lacking. Listen, not for a time to interrupt and &#039;throw a verbal left hook&#039;, but listen to understand... WOW. Who knows they might even begin at least to understand, or see the other person&#039;s real feelings. Who knows, maybe even grow closer through the whole process, of simply communicating. 
   In counselling, of course there is alot of blaming each other... &quot;You this....&quot; &quot;You that.....&quot; It&#039;s truly hard to get the couple to stop, and to start just trying to listen for feelings, and hurts. Harder still to get each to begin to admit their own mistakes which have added to the whole mess. 
   But when they do.. then walls start crumbling. 
   So why can brethren not start to treat each other like the brothers and sisters they are in Christ and because of the work He did? Why can we not use the same methods used in counselling two that simply need help to get the communication going, and the healing started, and forgiveness given, so the love that they normaly would have can be rekindled? 
   I believe they can. But the one&#039;s who would rather keep the couple fighting, and disagreeing, or even come to a divorce need to see what they are doing. 
   You may say there is a need for &quot;defending the faith&quot; and blasting the &#039;false teacher&#039;... Yes there is a time for that, but why not try and see if they are really false teachers&#039; trying to hurt the sheep, or if they are sincere lovers of Jesus with a different interpretation or point. 
   Agreeing to disagree is still ok. Asking sincere questions, and looking for truth... still ok. 
   Grace and love indeed can solve alot of the bad feelings, and help heal and restore, and unite a giant that can change the world. 
   The church does not need &#039;purging&#039; as much as it needs healing.  God is Judge. If there are weeds among the wheat, then perhaps we should wait till the harvest, let the Harvester decide and focus on the fields that are white. Perhaps we need to be about our Father&#039;s business... and let the world see what real Christianity is... 
   Call me whatever you want, but I truely am concerned about the continuous dividing that cripples the work which we are called to. 
   How far does grace reach? The word &quot;uttermost&quot; almost scares us. Some are so scared that grace will be abused, or that some will &#039;get away with something&#039; that preachers are scared to bring this out from the &#039;moth balls&#039; and look at it. 
   But brethren, this grace is what we desperately need. 
   Jay is exactly right. We must learn about God&#039;s revolutionary grace, and teach it. We have a long way to go, but the more I study His grace, the more amazed and grateful I am. 
   Thanks again Jay, 
   Jack Exum Jr. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,<br />
This is an excellent series&#8230; Especially is this lesson to the exact point that the church needs to consider.<br />
How many of us have sat and tried to counsel with a couple who have been married for some time, but come because they have problems they cannot either deal with or handle.<br />
   Problems that have been considered by both, off limits, simply because of the inability to sit and talk and lay aside personality and deal with it.<br />
   The church today has some who prefer to keep old fires going instead of sitting down and with an open bible and open mind, simply discuss it. Without getting upset, to voicing  their views and the reasons for them, and with the heart of seeking to know the truth, to ask questions and take a look.<br />
   What do we do when dealing with a couple who&#039;s marriage is in trouble because of things undiscussed for years, while knowing all the time that these things are &#039;eatting them up&#039; inside.<br />
   We encourage them to begin by really trying to listen&#8230; a skill that many times is woefully lacking. Listen, not for a time to interrupt and &#039;throw a verbal left hook&#039;, but listen to understand&#8230; WOW. Who knows they might even begin at least to understand, or see the other person&#039;s real feelings. Who knows, maybe even grow closer through the whole process, of simply communicating.<br />
   In counselling, of course there is alot of blaming each other&#8230; &quot;You this&#8230;.&quot; &quot;You that&#8230;..&quot; It&#039;s truly hard to get the couple to stop, and to start just trying to listen for feelings, and hurts. Harder still to get each to begin to admit their own mistakes which have added to the whole mess.<br />
   But when they do.. then walls start crumbling.<br />
   So why can brethren not start to treat each other like the brothers and sisters they are in Christ and because of the work He did? Why can we not use the same methods used in counselling two that simply need help to get the communication going, and the healing started, and forgiveness given, so the love that they normaly would have can be rekindled?<br />
   I believe they can. But the one&#039;s who would rather keep the couple fighting, and disagreeing, or even come to a divorce need to see what they are doing.<br />
   You may say there is a need for &quot;defending the faith&quot; and blasting the &#039;false teacher&#039;&#8230; Yes there is a time for that, but why not try and see if they are really false teachers&#039; trying to hurt the sheep, or if they are sincere lovers of Jesus with a different interpretation or point.<br />
   Agreeing to disagree is still ok. Asking sincere questions, and looking for truth&#8230; still ok.<br />
   Grace and love indeed can solve alot of the bad feelings, and help heal and restore, and unite a giant that can change the world.<br />
   The church does not need &#039;purging&#039; as much as it needs healing.  God is Judge. If there are weeds among the wheat, then perhaps we should wait till the harvest, let the Harvester decide and focus on the fields that are white. Perhaps we need to be about our Father&#039;s business&#8230; and let the world see what real Christianity is&#8230;<br />
   Call me whatever you want, but I truely am concerned about the continuous dividing that cripples the work which we are called to.<br />
   How far does grace reach? The word &quot;uttermost&quot; almost scares us. Some are so scared that grace will be abused, or that some will &#039;get away with something&#039; that preachers are scared to bring this out from the &#039;moth balls&#039; and look at it.<br />
   But brethren, this grace is what we desperately need.<br />
   Jay is exactly right. We must learn about God&#039;s revolutionary grace, and teach it. We have a long way to go, but the more I study His grace, the more amazed and grateful I am.<br />
   Thanks again Jay,<br />
   Jack Exum Jr.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Guin</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9416</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Guin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9416</guid>
		<description>Alan, 
 
Amen </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, </p>
<p>Amen</p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://oneinjesus.info/2009/10/overseeing-the-moderate-church-part-3/#comment-9415</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oneinjesus.info/?p=7006#comment-9415</guid>
		<description>In a age where the power of the church has been debunked and restorative models exploited  is the plight of church really between radical extremes and goldilocks theology? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a age where the power of the church has been debunked and restorative models exploited  is the plight of church really between radical extremes and goldilocks theology?</p>
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