Thanks for those examples. I wouldn't have thought of them on my own, and they are very helpful because they show God's people working in governments entirely outside of the Kingdom to make things better. They werent' trying to Judaize their governments, but they did work to make the government better.

You can add Ezra and Nehemiah, who were officials of the Persian government and worked within the Persian government to re-establish Israel and the temple.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have libelled ALL ATHEISTS by writing "And who would want to live in a country run by atheists? That’s been tried a few times in the last 100 years, and the results were none too pleasant."

France under Mitterand was a country "run by" an atheist
Sweden under Palma was a country "run by" an atheist.
Australia under Hawke was a country "run by" an atheist.

But you didn't bother to distinguish between a country "run by" an atheist and any others; instead, you decided to slur ALL atheists by your statement.

When Joseph became involved in the economic policies of Egypt, he prevented the economic ruin of a region. Countless lives were saved, including those of his family.

When Daniel had an opportunity to advise the king of Babylon, he told him, "Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed" (Daniel 4:27). He showed concern for people who faced oppression, and he tried to persuade the leader of the government to change his attitude toward them.

When Queen Esther and her cousin Mordecai uncovered Haman's plot to commit racial genocide, they became involved in changing the king's policy, bringing a criminal to justice, and ensuring that the Jewish minority had the right to self-defense.

In each case, believers expressed love for others in pursuing good and just public policies. And in each case, they were involved in governments that did not necessarily consider God and his standards to be a priority.

I would not argue that everyone needs to be involved in making government policies, but I would argue that they are allowed to do so (and that they can do it as an expression of love for their neighbors).

i have said repeatedly on multiple posts now that i don't think God did anything evil when commanding battles, nor that war participation is wrong in all times in all places in all circumstances. i don't know what else to say to make that clear but to repeat it again.

–Guy

Regarding John the Baptist — i don't know how far reaching his message was meant to be. He was preparing the way for Christ. Who exactly his message applied to outside a limited period of history is not clear to me. Nevertheless, he was speaking and preaching in a time prior to the New Covenant. A time when i've already admitted i think things were different.

Regarding civil servants being converted — converting civil servants is still quite different than lobbying them to Christianize their respective agencies and branches of government. Whether those people could continue serving in their posts or not, i don't know. It doesn't say.

(1) i wonder if revelation wasn't progressive in nature. Peter went several years before the truth regarding Gentile-inclusion was revealed to him. i'm not sure that some of these related issues might not have worked similarly.

(2) i don't think any person serving in any government capacity must immediately leave their position upon converting. (2a) People aren't expected to fix their entire life over night upon conversion. (2b) i don't think every government position a person could serve in demands of them that they perform actions incompatible with their discipleship. Some individuals manage to serve as police officers their entire lives without having to pull their trigger even once. Further, some people agree to military service but only in a non-combatant role.

i'm not saying this neatly dismisses all those cases Jay raises. i'm just saying i don't see how they force a pacifist out of his position.

–Guy

"Now, we have to also notice that Peter converted a Roman centurion (Acts 10), Philip converted the eunuch who was over the Ethiopian treasury (Acts 8), and Paul converted a Roman proconsul (think “member of cabinet”) (Acts 13:7-12) and a jailer (Acts 16:23-36). Nothing is said of the centurion, eunuch, or proconsul leaving their positions due to their conversion, and the jailer certainly remained in his position after his conversion (Acts 16:36).

(Luke 3:9-14) The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

…12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”

John was speaking of the kingdom that was about to come. He told tax collectors (who worked for Rome in civilian service) and soldiers (employed by Rome in police and military service) to do their jobs righteously. They weren’t told to quit their jobs."