Absolutely we should baptize believers. And absolutely we should teach that immersion is the best way to reenact the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

The mistake we have traditionally made is this. We have taught baptism more and with more emphasis than faith in Christ. The horrible result is that many in our fellowship are depending on baptism for salvation rather than depending on Jesus.

Baptism is important enough that we should get it right. Calling immersion "the new birth" is not right. It is precisely this rigid misunderstanding of baptism, primarily, that has historically isolated us from the rest of the believing family of God.

Peter, who spoke the words of Acts 2:38 also said these words.

"If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us WHEN WE BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?" (Acts 11:17)

"And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit JUST AS HE DID TO US, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having CLEANSED THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH" (Acts 15:7-9)

Peter's own words make plain that salvation is by faith. Those who believe are to be baptized, ie Phillip's instruction to the Etheopian "If you believe with all your heart you may.

Some of us teach we are baptising lost people and lost people are "unbelievers". We are to baptise "believers", and believers are not lost.

Royce

I just read your earlier post (12/23).

What you wrote is also true of the "main-line" churches I grew up in. We also built our tower to which we invited others, but from which we never emerged.

I am just now struggling to come out of that tower.

Jerry

i fully agree, having just left, the situation remains unchanged. it is a closed door interaction. icoc’ers only.

Other ICOC churches in the region (in Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana) have been exhibiting the same behavior as well. I believe Toledo actually absorbed a tiny (less than 20 member?) Church of Christ a few years ago. Interaction outside of the congregations is directed to other ICOC churches only.

My experience with the young man I spoke of who wanted to be baptized frequently is not recent. It was about 20 years ago. I mentioned it only in response to one-cup-man's comment.

My recent experience with former ICoC congregations has been good, but not extensive or deep. I have a very good friend, now widowed, whose husband worked with a merged congregation of ICoC and a main-line congregation with very good results. They were able to take the better points from each background and are a dynamic, mission-minded congregation. I know nothing of congregations that are still holding to the former ways.

Jerry

Jerry

Humans by nature miss the good God has intended by failing to grasp it. Instead we try to grasp things on our own and by our own merit. In doing so we forfeit the provisions of God by stepping outside of the marriage which God intended for us.
In Genesis 9:1 God's plans with Noah was that he and his sons would fill the earth.
Genesis 11:1-4
[City - an inhabited place of more importance and larger than a town.]
[Tower - a tall structure built upon a larger structure. (To tower is to reach or rise to great heights.)]
So what was wrong about wanting to build a city with a tower in it and why did God oppose them? Their desires were simply ungodly. Biblically, to travel east is to leave the land of (God's) blessings. Within a nation/world which God himself has created they wanted to erect for themselves a city and a building which they choose to live in apart from God. The focus had been reduced from God's "worldly" perspective to a smaller scale.
The purpose of wanting to build a city was to make a name for themselves and not have to be scattered. Inadvertently, they did make a name for themselves and became known all over the world for generations to come. What they had set out to do was accomplished, albeit only on God's terms.
We as Christians must be careful then, that we no longer build a "city" for ourselves apart from Eden (the Lord's blessings) nor erect a tower. Previously we (me formally an ICOC’er) had proclaimed "we are the one true church" and sought to make a name for ourselves. We dwelled within a city known as the ICOC which we built with our own hands.
In each place we went into we erected our own building (tower) upon which people were invited to come but where we had refused to leave. As a result our focus has been truly scaled down. Had we become the modern day Babel? Failing to carry out the commission which God entrusted to Noah, his sons and their descendants the people of Babel had decided to reject the plans of God and to build a city for themselves without realizing that it is God who scatters.
Genesis 11:5-9
Be as it may, God also wants diversity. He would be unable to accomplish his goals with a people who remain stubborn and refuse to leave the city which they had built. Being the creator of languages, God has the power to allow us to communicate with others regardless of any barriers.
Matthew 11:12-14
What connection does the fig tree have with the tower and the church? Like the tower, the fig tree is also the church. The fig tree withered because it made a show of itself that promised fruit (and caught Jesus' attention) yet bore none.
The city of Babel also made a show of itself wanting to stand apart from God's will and "make a name" for itself and gather those who refuse to be scattered.
Aren't we all looking for blessings? God promises us spiritual blessings. But in order for us to receive his blessings we must first consider what we hold onto in place of him.
Isaiah 59:1-2 says that sin separates us from God. True! But how we view this verse needs to be revisited and possibly changed. If God shows unfailing love to us and if he promises never to leave our side, how can we think that when we sin that he alienates us? What then really happens?
Isaiah 59:12-14
"… justice is driven back." God doesn't turn away from us, instead we drive him away. Like a child who rebels against his parents and pushes them away turning his back against them and thus separates himself by refusing their love. But as a loving parent, God holds out his arms in love; but in our rebellion we push them away and step back from his embrace. God doesn't turn from us we turn from him.
Hebrews 10:23-25
In light of all that has happened whether inside or outside the ICOC, we should never forget that Jesus is Lord. Hebrews 10:25 "Let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing…" Habits are acquired by frequent repetition. The more time we spend away from God, the easier it will become to stay away from him. In the same way, the more time we spend away from those who have been united with Christ, the easier it will become to separate ourselves altogether.
The Bible certainly is clear about the need for Christians to fellowship with each other. (Rom 12:10, 1 Cor 1:10, Gal 5:13)

So what is God’s love and grace capable of? Just read Psalm 18:1-20
It is like the father who has fought long and hard to win his son, and who has battled with the Brazilian government. Here is what he says: “he is my son, he has only one father and that is me” and “I will never give up”. He knows that his son is in an unhealthy environment and that he must come home with him. Wow! This is Godly love. When we are in an unhealthy environment, the things that are thought will hold us captive, but it is awesome to know that our gracious God hears the groaning of the spirit; he parts the heavens and comes down from on high and takes hold of us and rescues us.

Chris

I agree in principle that ICOC members should reach out. Some of us have, and continue to do so. More would be better. I'm just suggesting that "make every effort" goes both ways. I'm not waiting for someone in the COC to reach out to me. Likewise, COC members shouldn't wait for someone from the ICOC to reach out to them. If more of us on both sides start doing it, maybe it will leaven the lump, so to speak.

That's the coolest quotation! Thanks. God is looking for ways to save us, not ways to foot fault us.

Amen and amen.

I think your concerns are valid. But I do think the ball is really in the court of each individual ICOC member or congregation. Not all congregations are getting healthier. Not all want to fellowship with the COC, let alone any other denomination.

Also, every COC(and Conservative Christian church), that I have visited, has welcomed my wife and I with open arms. No study series, no questioning my baptism, etc.)

In my opinion, the COC members don't need to visit the ICOC. It's the ICOC members that need to go visit other congregations, starting with the their brothers and sisters in the COC. Secondly, if they want to be taken serious about it, they need to start preaching about it to their congregations, not just at COC seminars, etc.. I'm not sure you could find a link to even one Sunday message where this is thoroughly addressed. On the flip side, I've heard hundreds on how the ICOC was the only true church.
Alan, I'm sorry for being so harsh, but honestly, this issue has not been fully addressed by the ICOC as a whole. For the most part it has been silently swept under the carpet.