3. What was Moser’s view of the work of the indwelling Spirit?
While I have no writings of Greg’s in which he affirms a personal indwelling of the Spirit, my understanding is that this is his view, and that appears to be the sense of his comments here. The question on which most progressives and conservatives disagree, however, is whether the Spirit influences the heart of the Christian other than through the word.
Moser writes,
In designating the Spirit as the source of these graces, the apostle does not mean to separate the fruit of the Spirit from the person’s effort in whom the Spirit dwells. The person being influenced by the Spirit brings forth these graces. They are the work of both man and the Spirit, but primarily of the Spirit, because he incites them.
Through the word only?
Some have assumed that if the Spirit should dwell in man he would have nothing to do. We shall see that the Spirit has a work to do, and that this work is sufficient to keep him well employed. There is no unemployment problem with the Holy Spirit. …
Now, if I deny that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, I logically leave grace for law. It is significant that most of those who deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are legalists and teach salvation by works. …
If the Spirit does not dwell personally in the Christian, then he dwells in him only in the sense of exercising an influence upon him, as, for example, through the Scriptures. If this be conceded, how can the Spirit be a possession peculiar to the Christian, seeing the sinner also is influenced by the word of God? But Paul says: “Because ye are sons” the Spirit is sent “into our hearts.” Why would not the Spirit as truly dwell in the hearts of men before sonship?
In fairness to some let it be said that while denying the personal indwelling of the Spirit they do believe that he dwells in the Christian. Just how or in what sense seems not easy for them to explain. With me, to assert the indwelling of the Spirit is to assert the personal indwelling. I am unable to understand how the Spirit can accomplish what he is said to accomplish and not dwell personally in the Christian. For example, within man is a warfare between right and wrong. (Gal. 5:17.) But this warfare is between the “law of sin” which is in our members and the Holy Spirit “which dwelleth in you.” Now, if the Spirit does not personally dwell in man, how can the warfare be located within him? This struggle would then, of necessity, be external as to man. …
Likewise I believe that the Spirit of God dwells within his children, because his word says so. I believe it to be my privilege to preach that Jesus is God’s Son. I believe it to be likewise a privilege to preach that my body is “a temple of the Holy Spirit.” I am afraid to be guilty of robbing Christians of one of the most comforting doctrines of the whole Bible by trying to explain away the plainest of Scriptures; but I am not afraid of being condemned for preaching false doctrine when I teach word for word the doctrines of inspired apostles. It is evident to many that the church of the Lord is suffering today because this most wholesome doctrine has not received the emphasis it so richly deserves. When it is preached, people will believe it; and when they believe it, they must be made better.
(emphasis in original).
Amen.
4. Does Greg agree with Moser?
I don’t know.
Conclusion
I wish I had known K. C. Moser. I look forward to Bobby Valentine’s biography of him. Moser worked from the 1920’s to the 1950’s. It was a lot harder to teach these doctrines back then — especially with the likes of Foy Wallace, Jr. attacking him.
Even today, Dub McClish is still at war with Moser’s teachings in a fascinating 2004 paper, which gives real insight into the legalistic mindset (I’m not accusing Greg of agreeing with McClish).
I’m grateful to Greg for pushing me to become familiar with Moser’s work. And I encourage all the readers to learn from this man.
Jay, I have some questions about some of the quotes you have provided from Moser. And while I understand you are not him, I am curious as to what you believe about what he said.
For example(s), Moser writes:
1) "Now, if I deny that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, I logically leave grace for law. It is significant that most of those who deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are legalists and teach salvation by works. …"
Question — As proponets of the "personal indwelling" deny that the children of God before Pentecost possesed such an indwelling, according to Moser, they were all then "legalists who taught salvation by works." But, who would want to argue that? That Zechariah and Elizabeth were "legalists who taught salvation by works." And implicilty, were even saved that way?
2) Moser writes — "I am unable to understand how the Spirit can accomplish what he is said to accomplish and not dwell personally in the Christian. For example, within man is a warfare between right and wrong. (Gal. 5:17.) But this warfare is between the “law of sin” which is in our members and the Holy Spirit “which dwelleth in you.” Now, if the Spirit does not personally dwell in man, how can the warfare be located within him? This struggle would then, of necessity, be external as to man. …"
Question — Moser is here guilty of some "eisegesis."
Paul did not write (as Moser believes) that the warefare existing within man is between the law of sin and "the Holy Spirt." Rather, the Bible simply records "the spirit." Why can't the battle be the same as when Jesus said "the spirit" is willing but the flesh is weak"? Surely, he did not mean "the Holy Spirit"? More can be said about all of that bt suffice it to say that Moser here is agruing from assumptions and clearly reading into the text. Besides, the struggle would not have to be "external" as Moser claims. For if if is betweeen the flesh and spirit of man (as I believe), it would still be internal.
Lastly, you (Jay) have written — "The question on which most progressives and conservatives disagree, however, is whether the Spirit influences the heart of the Christian other than through the word."
While I do believe that God influences the heart of the Christian in ways beyond the reading and preaching of the Bible (although never contrary to), I am afraid that many progressives take the idea way to far.
For instance, when I asked Bob to either explain the false accusation he made against me or to apologize, instead he said:
"Goodby. The spirit has spoken to me to invest my time talking to the lost."
I mean, do you not question that yourself? I do not understand why people say things like that when they know it is not true. I also wonder why so many simply accept it?
Also, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit must neccessarily be "in" a person to influence him (even directly). For Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit would come, that he (the Holy Spirit) would "convict the world concerning sin and righteoussnes and judgment" Jn. 16:8.
Surely, he is able to do as much without "indwelling the personally"?
Thanks
Ezekiel 36:26-27
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (Quoted in Hebrews as fulfilled in the New Covenant)
"Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, NOT LIKE the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I btook them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My ccovenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law WITHIN them and ON their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Colossians 1:26,27
The mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ ***IN*** you, the hope of glory.
Romans 8:8,9
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells IN you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Philippians 2:13
For it is God who is at work IN you, BOTH to WILL and to WORK for His good pleasure.
2 Peter 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become PARTAKERS of the DIVINE nature, having escaped (past tense) the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1John 3:23,24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He IN HIM. We know by this that He abides IN US, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the POWER of sin is the law
Galatians 5:16-24
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you WILL NOT carry out the desire of the flesh. For athe flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please (Romans 7). BUT (Romans 8) if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who PRACTICE such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. But athe FRUIT of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things THERE IS NO LAW. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus HAVE CRUCIFIED (past tense) the flesh with its passions and desires.
1John 3:7-10
Little children, MAKE SURE no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to DESTROY the works of the devil. NO ONE who is born of God practices sin, because HIS SEED ABIDES IN HIM; and he cannot sin, because he is BORN of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are OBVIOUS: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Christianity IS life by and in and through and indwelt by the Spirit. The fruit, REAL FRUIT, will be obvious. If that fruit doesn't describe your life and the life of your church, then you are neither a Christian, nor a church. Sadly, the works of the flesh are much more apparent in our churches. This issue of the Spirit is not a doctrinal debate, it is a practical one–Either your are walking in His Righteousness (with failings no doubt, but not PRACTICED SIN) or you are not. Jesus died to forgive us of our sins SO THAT we could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. THAT WAS HIS GOAL. SO THAT we COULD, by His Spirit, walk in His Ways, with His law (the law of Love) written on our hearts. It is a miracle more important than walking on water or giving sight to the blind.
Jesus, please open our blind eyes to SEE the reality of your great and precious promises for those who Believe.
I have always hesitated to enter such discussions because from my personal experience they usually go nowhere. However, I would like to make some observations concerning Hank's questions, if I understand them correctly. (I want to be fair) Moser did NOT believe nor say that those under the Law of Moses (LM) were all legalists! (Just most of the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the law!) To infer that is to misunderstand what he has written in his book, The Way of Salvation. (One really needs to get the book and carefully study it to be fair to him) Those under covenant relationship with God, the Hebrew people , were under a legal system (LM) based upon works (i.e., doing the works/commands of the law (Leviticus) which was opposed to grace. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (Jn 1:17). But, could the LM justify? Moser's point, from Paul (Romans & Galatians) and that of the Hebrew writer, is NO! "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are to come, not the realities themselves. For this reason it can NEVER by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect (complete) those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they have not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual REMINDER (Guilt!) of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Heb 10) The main emphasis of Hebrews, written primarily to Jewish Christians, was to entreat/plead them NOT to forsake grace for law righteousness; to perservere under the sacrifice of Christ, a better and permanent "once for all" sacrifice, God's son, who knew no sin – the perfect sacrifice without sin or blemish. If the law was imperfect, with respect to our sin problem, why did God give Moses the law? What was its purpose? "What then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (inability of law keeping/works to justify) UNTIL the seed (Christ) to whom the promise referred had come. "…Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law (because law keeping cannot justify because man cannot keep it), locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:23f & Rom 3-4) [show our desperate need for a sacrifice that could accomplish what the law couldn't because of the law'rule/sinful nature of man]. A Moser quote: The law lays down what man must do; the gospel lays down what God has done."
Now to Zechariah and Elizabeth. (you may have wondered if I was going to get to question 1?) The mother and father of John, the preparer, who was the prophesied forerunner of Jesus, who offered the baptism of repenrance for salvation for those who realized they were condemned under/by the law that they couldn't keep, and therefore stood condemned and sought a better way to be made right with God. Those under the LM, who looked forward and trusted in the prophesy that God would provide the Christ were like Abraham, the man of faith, and "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised (during their life); they only saw them and welcomed them from a distant. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth…..Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he had prepared a city for them." (Heb 11) All those with the faith of Abraham, prior to and under LM, were saved by their faith (not law/rules keeping), and God imputed to them the righteousness that comes by faith in God's promises, culminating in Jesus Christ!
Now to #2 (I've written so much I hope I have Hank's questions/observations straight.) Moser's point, regarding the indwelling Spirit, is that man's primary struggle is "…not against flesh and blood (external) but against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Eph 6:12). Our struggles are inherently internal spiritual struggles manifested externally in the works of the flesh/sin (Gal 5:10-21). LM keeping was ineffective/impotent in forgiving and controlling man's sinful nature, even though the law from God was holy and good. The problem for man was not the law, but man's inability to keep it because after the fall man's nature is to rebell against God! Therefore the law itself condemned man, just like a stop sign does when you realized you just ran through it! (Rom 7:7-25) Ah! Then begins that glorious section of scripture Rom 7:26 through chapter 8!! I've probably said too much, but I love this stuff! As God has provided all that man needs for reconcillation, He also provides us the Enabler, A gift of God's sanctifying grace to combat the evil spiritual realm who preys on our sinful nature. Romans 8, and other scriptues listed by Moser, clearly list all the attributes and the purpose of the indwelling Spirit to the submitted faithful that firmly believe 'No eye has seen, nor ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him." (I Cor 2:9) Blessings all….Jim
Please consider, not only from scripture but your own experience, that a legal approach, even to New Covenant teachings, has the same effect as Paul articulates in Romans 7…. Failure. "What I want to do, I don't do. What I hate, I do." Jesus did not die so that THAT could describe the life of His Saints. They had THAT kind of failure under the Old Covenant. Grace doesn't only forgive sin. Grace is the PROVISION to overcome sin.
The POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW (1Corinthians 15:56).
But the Just shall live, not by law, but by faith.
Living by Faith will exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. Living by faith will result in the fruit of the Spirit. Living by faith will bring honor and glory to Jesus because the world will SEE HIM again, living THROUGH His People.
What is the difference between living by law and living by faith through the Spirit. They are different in every way.
Ask Him (yes, you too Hank) to SHOW you the difference.
1John 2:26-27
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as ****His anointing teaches you about all things****, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Moser did NOT believe nor say that those under the Law of Moses (LM) were all legalists! (Just most of the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the law!) To infer that is to misunderstand what he has written in his book, The Way of Salvation. — Jim
You are right. I should have noticed the word "most." However, he did imply that they had all "left grace for law."
What Moser actually said (according to Jay's post) was this:
“Now, if I deny that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, I logically leave grace for law. It is significant that most of those who deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are legalists and teach salvation by works. …"
Since, virtually every child of God before Pentesost would have denied having the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. And since Moser said that to deny that means that you "logically leave grace for law." He thereby implies that they had left grace for law.
It seems to me that many people say a lot of things about how one could not obey God nor do his will very well without having the "personal indwelling" of the Holy Spirit…..all the while forgetting that the OT saints had no such indwelling? Yet many of them were just as faithful and obedient to God as are any of us today.
Hank says, "Yet many of them were just as faithful and obedient to God as are any of us today."
True in a sense but TOTALLY false in another.
If by 'just as faithful and obedient' you mean who they were in and of themselves, I'd say yes.
But the New Covenant and the Indwelling Spirit radically change the paradigm.
Jesus says in Matthew 11:11
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
The difference is the Spirit. Did you read the verses above, the Old Covenant prophecies about the nature of the coming New Covenant? It is an exponential change. The C of C (conservative and progressive) have not even begun to fully comprehend the enormity of the difference. Even progressives still view the New Covenant from a very legal mindset as if Matthew-Revelation are the new Torah. That is why the division and sectarianism exists. It is a rallying around doctrine (conservatives rally tightly, progressives rally loosely)… but the Spirit and LIFE of Christ is the only true rallying point. The LIFE becomes the Light of men.
Hank, are you pleased with the obedience and holiness in your life? What about your fellow members? The youth group? Are the fruits of the Spirit obvious and overflowing or the works of the flesh? Again, the issues about the Spirit are not theoretical or doctrinal. Either the life of Christ is being manifested in your life and the works of the Devil are being destroyed or they are not. Like Paul, I was zealous above my peers for C of C doctrine and purity. But I couldn't keep from sinning if my life depended on it. Then one day, I learned that God meant to live inside me and EVERYTHING has been different since. Unlike Bob in that other post, I'm not at war with you. I'm pulling for you and hope you too know the joy of crying "Abba, Father." The Indwelling Spirit isn't about tongues or miracles. It is about living in relationship with God rather than rules. And in practice, a life in the Spirit will become more Holy than the rules could ever dream of achieving.
Above, I spoke in too broad of strokes about progressives and conservatives… I should have qualified those sentences with "many"…. Sorry about that.
It seems to me that denying a personal indwelling of the holy spirit would be blaspheming the holy spirit and the work that it does. (Matt 12:31) I'd equate it to denying of one's own salvation since it is through the work done through the Holy Spirit. Hence it is not forgiveable, since it is through that agent that we ask and receive forgiveness. It makes me happy that this was in fact preached today in my church. I know I still sin all the time, but the fruit of that indwelling is that I am assured that I am forgiven.
You can be legalist all you want, but denying the Holy Spirit indwelling in you means death, only through the Holy Spirit is life. (romans 8:2) I don't see how you could be a Christian and beleive otherwise. Romans 8: 9 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." Seems rather plain and simple to me.
Why is this post titled "replanting a denomination"? Who is replanting a denomination? what denomination is it? and why is it being 'replanted'? What does that even mean?
Hank asked about certain of the Moser quotations.
As you've noted in a later comment, Moser didn't say denial of the personal indwelling makes you a legalist, but that most legalists deny the indwelling. Alexander Campbell was no legalist, but he denied the indwelling.
You are right that most Jews did not possess the Spirit before Pentecost.
In Rom 8, the context is plainly the Holy Spirit. For example,
I think the translations universally take this position.
If God can influence our hearts outside but not contrary to the Bible, why not the Spirit?
Hank asked,
The Spirit is part of the Triune God. Yes, he can influence us without living inside us. But the scriptures plainly teach that he does dwell inside us — and this very intentionally echoes God's choice to "dwell" among the Israelites, first through the Tabernacle and then through the Temple. And God did this for a reason. It's worth pondering what that reason might have been.
pilgrim,
Thanks for joining the conversation. Very well put and very true.
rey,
You have to go back to the beginning of the series.
The "denomination" is the Churches of Christ, of course.
To "replant" is to move from a small pot to a bigger pot to allow for better health and growth. It's a gardening metaphor.
Where is this pot?
My Friends;
Let me first state, for the record, I have never believed that Jay Guin has ever attempted to misrepresent my convictions and I have every confidence that Jay wants to honestly examine the issues before us.
I deeply regret that various personal matters caused me to fail in maintaining the dialog with Jay in our earlier exchanges.
Jay does, however, infer many things from my writings which are not quite what I intended to communicate. As to the matters at hand, permit me to speak to my convictions:
First, I believe we are saved by the grace of God. This grace is conditional, the conditions arising from the nature of the atonement. These conditions are repentance and faith expressed in the Good Confession and in Baptism into Christ. In no way does one earn salvation in the water of baptism, one receives salvation. Baptism is an act of Grace.
Second, I believe that God the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in each person who is baptized into Christ.
Third, while I believe the days of signs and wonders ended with the last one on whom an apostle imparted miraculous powers (late first or early second century), I believe restricting the work of the Holy Spirit to His work through the Bible contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.
I hope my views on these matters are clear.
-Greg Tidwell