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I am glad you are here. the points you make are valid indeed.

I'm working up a reply, but time is such a problem. I've got 26 more comments to read. But it'll show up … in time.

Yes, I would agree that God (the loving shepherd) exercises a great deal of discipline towards His sheep. He certainly has in my life. If one has not felt the Lord's discipline maybe that person should question whether they are really His. There may be comfort to be found in the discipline of a parent.

Your ranching analogy has a great deal of merit. The point is that the sheep was valuable to the shepherd and he was not willing to give it up. He knew it was a dumb smelly animal that was prone to wander and fall prey to predators. That's why we are in such need of a real shepherd.

Had it not been the LORD that was on my side – you know that song? it speaks of His unfailing love and His unwillingness to give me up.
Peace,
Randall

I agree that sometimes it takes a little tough love to bring someone back — even disfellowshipping someone in the right circumstance. Reproving and rebuking are part of what we've been taught — but only where a congregation is bound together in love. It's the love makes tough love possible.

Bob

John, the absolute truth is our personal accountability is HIGHER because of the Spirit. With Jesus LIVING INSIDE US, we have no excuses for mediocrity. When we sin, we can't say, "Well, I guess the Holy Spirit let me down there…"

And to your second point, the promise of the New Covenant was that it WOULD ***NOT BE WRITTEN**** on tablets or paper, but that it would be WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS. The contrast of the MEDIA (tablets of stone vs. hearts) is pervasive. Heb. 8-10, 2 Cor. 3, Galatians. Is written rules easier? For our flesh. It gives us something we can measure ourselves with and harshly judge others with. But the way of the Spirit is the way of dependence, moment by moment… it feels more vulnerable but it is where TRUE FREEDOM is found.

Surely God covers us for sins of ignorance. Hopefully He gives us turn-around time to repent of sins we know we have committed. Is it a few seconds, a few hours, a few days…? I don’t know. But, hopefully there is some time.

I have always understood the “once for all” texts in Hebrews 7.27, 9.12, and 10.10 to refer to Jesus’ sacrifice being offered one time, which was good for all time, in contrast to the Mosaic animal sacrifices. Please compare Romans 6.10, “He died to sin once for all.” I do not understand it to refer directly to our salvation but to His sin offering. The two are clearly related, but they are not the same thing.

The Hebrews 10.10-18 texts also, in my understanding, refer to the forgiveness sticking. Once God forgives a sin/s, they stay forgiven. Please compare Hebrews 10.3, “in those sins there is a reminder of sins every year” (NKJV). The KJV and ASV have “remembrance” here. This refers to the situation under Moses. You may wish to comment on the Greek here. I am (unfortunately) not a master of Greek. I do not understand these texts to refer to our being forgiven of new sins day by day, but to a sin, once forgiven, staying forgiven, in contrast to Moses where there was an annual remembrance. If I understand you correctly, you understand these Hebrews texts to be parallel to 1 John 1.7. I do understand 1 John 1.7 to be some kind of continuous cleansing, but not the Hebrews passages.

I am not sure what all the Holy Spirit does for the Christian. Coincidentally, I even talked about this in the lesson tonight at church. I do know this: 1) He indwells the Christian, 2) He does not give the Christian any miraculous powers today, 3) He does good for the Christian, and 4) He will do what He is supposed to do. It seems there is a danger that the more we emphasize relying on the Holy Spirit, the less we emphasize personal accountability. It is simpler to say, as I believe Guy N. Woods did, that the Holy Spirit does His work through the word.

If one reverts to a life dominated by sin, it is clear that he will be lost, barring repentance. When one does that brings up again the question of the threshold line. I must make my controlling purpose to grow as a Christian. If God commands us to grow, then, I would assume, He allows us to grow. But there is always the challenge/warning: Am I doing my best to grow?

I've always read this and heard this parable told in sermons in a way that makes me imagine a kind, heartfelt shepherd going and finding a little lost lamb and rescuing it. Perhaps he kneels down next to the lamb, feeds him some grain, and then carries the lamb over his shoulders back to the herd. You know, a showing of humility by the shepherd.

Please allow me to offer a unique take. Any of you guys ever grow up doing any ranching/farming? As a child, I had the gift of being able to help out on my grandpa's farm. He had cattle. Growing up in a rural farming area in the Midwest, I had other experiences with friend's farms, etc. and dealing with cattle. I've never dealt with sheep, but being livestock, I can't see them behaving much more differently than cattle.

So here is the deal: When a cow escapes and gets away from the herd, you can be sure of a couple of things. 1) The cow had a reason for leaving (go be with a bull, find it's calf, better grass, etc), and (2) the cow won't want to go back. To get it back in it's correct place with the herd, you have to poke, prod, bait, fool, etc. to try and get that cow to cooperate.

Back to our parable. Is it possible that in our current state of soft, warm "comfort Christianity" we've neglected to draw a correct meaning from this parable? I think it could mean that sometimes when a brother strays from the herd, sometimes you need to grab him by the scruff of the neck, hogtie him, and drag him back to the fold!!! Maybe he fights to get away again, but this time you keep a close eye and don't let him get far!

This is just a thought I've had recently. Obviously, I've written this to sound fairly extreme. But is this something we maybe should consider to some extent?