My only point was it seems the modern model is to create all kinds of programs to help people in the hopes that they see our love and come to Christ and then teach them the gospel. And sometimes it seems that we spend so much time doing that, and for all of those who are content to take the temporal things from us, never hear the gospel as a result. I've also seen that we run our people ragged taking care of these temporal things that other important work like evangelism seems to fall by the wayside.

I just wonder sometimes if we shouldn't be out in front teaching and preaching and taking care of their souls first and then take care of other things later. I think you can make a case from the Bible for both models. Jesus took care of both. He fed them, took care of their hurts and diseases at the same time as he was trying to heal their souls. Deacons were appointed so that others could go about preaching and teaching. But also on the other hand when he sends the 12 I don't see him setting Peter and the other fisherman over the hunger committee and Andrew over marriage enrichment and other things, Jesus sends them out to bring those lost souls back to him.

I'm not trying to just be an old stick in the mud, but being in the ministry for 20 years I've seen things come and go and am just trying to figure out how best to "seek and save the lost."

Are you accusing me of opposing the teaching of the Christian faith? If not, I'm really not following you. If so, you are, of course, wrong in the extreme.

All I've said is that Paul in Eph 4 counsels leaders in church to equip the members to do works of service, which would lead to unity, knowledge of Jesus, and overcoming the storms of doctrinal disagreement. Paul places holding out the word of truth — the gospel — after works of service in his presentation. And I've had the audacity to agree.

I have no idea whether I agree or disagree with Schleiermacher and don't really care. I've not studied his work.

Instead of comparing anyone to Schleiermacher (or any other irrelevant human), why not compare to what Jesus says? Isn't that the ruler by which we are to measure?

Jesus' ministry was not a weaving together of two things. It was one thing – following the Father – exhibited in multiple ways.

Jesus' ministry also happened every day, on an individual level. But this is not what happens in program or missionary-minded churches (as opposed to mission-minded churches).

Making disciples is the key concept we need to be discussing here. What does that look like?

First and foremost, it is not making converts.
Door knocking is not looking for disciples.
Seminars and revival meetings can't make disciples.
Service projects don't make disciples.

Making a disciple looks like:
Thousands of hours
Inconvenient and interruptive phone calls
Delivering a meal
Shared sorrows
Genuine concern for someone else above our evangelism agendas
Sharing the drive to work
Fixing a leaky roof
Late night discussions about life

Let's do the one thing that Jesus did, exhibiting it through the gifts each one has been given, through the power of the Holy Spirit, with grace for all who call on His name.

The only mistake any Jesus follower (or group of followers) can make is not doing that.

Mission work by churches of Christ in South Korea after the Korean War experienced EXACTLY the same scenario. We helped feed; we rarely taught (according to one missionary I know who is still there… and trying to undo the mistakes of a half-century ago). We needed to do BOTH.

Do we not see in Jesus' ministry a weaving together of teaching and caring? Do we not need to care for physical/social/emotional needs and teach?

In Christ,
Bruce Morton
Katy, Texas

Congregations are not very effective at engendering relationships outside the walls. People, on the other hand, do it pretty well.

Let the leaders come along after the sheep have gone through the fence, if that's what it takes to get us all to water.

You seem to be saying, leave everything as it is (don’t fix the denominations, us included), let’s start BEING one body here on Earth, and the necessary bi-product of that is the Spirit will start doing His thing, and who knows what walls will start falling!

I wish I had said it that well!

Jay–

Well, props for trying to eat an elephant. I'm sitting here trying to wrap my head around the challenge, and I can't help but to be reminded of the question, "What do we need to do to fix the economy?"

To fix the economy, people need to start spending money. So that they have money to spend, we need more jobs. Jobs are created by having more work — the result of people spending more money. And so the circular argument goes.

Okay. Well, at least we have a place to start now (I think). Prior to this post, I had understood that you wanted to erase all denominations. Obviously, a great goal…but my point was that I just don't see how that is workable right now.

I like this thinking way better. You seem to be saying, leave everything as it is (don't fix the denominations, us included), let's start BEING one body here on Earth, and the necessary bi-product of that is the Spirit will start doing His thing, and who knows what walls will start falling!

I'm in. This makes sense, and this is workable.

Coming from a business perspective, my immediate response would be: "Sounds good. Okay, let's write up a plan. Next, let's get everyone on board so we can start getting organized. Once we have a bulletproof biz plan and systems down, let's attack."

And I think that will take us back to the 20th Century. I say we put man's wisdom behind us, and simply start doing the work, and let the Spirit sort it out.

Rather than spending the next year with the leaders from 10 Tuscaloosa churches and hammering out exactly how this will look, I say take the reigns, come up with a huge idea, and start moving forward. Get people motivated, and create a buzz. Move so hard and so fast that anyone that would even think of professing to be a Christian would have no choice but to join in.

The idea: No homeless people in Tuscaloosa by Christmas time (tell me that idea isn't marketable….okay, slipping back into biz mode). It is doable; the town I live in is about the same size as Tusc, and we don't have homeless people (at least, all can have a place to stay if they choose to). Churches are extremely strong in my town, and I have no doubt that this lack-of-a problem is due to the strength of the Spirit here (low/no murders, crime, etc.).

Break down the numbers: There are 196 homeless people in Tuscaloosa. If you got 20 churches involved, that is 10 people that each church would need to be responsible for.

(Off subject…but if anyone's church on here doesn't have any homeless people attending…you need some. To me, church is finally becoming what it needs to be when you've got a homeless guy sitting next to a doctor and they are perfectly equal, and the homeless guy is offering emotional support/edification to the doctor. That is church.)

Back to the idea. How ever many reasons that anyone can come up with that this would not work is all-the-more reason I think it is doable. Because maybe it isn't doable. By us. So let's do something really really loving and good, and see what the Spirit does in our stead!

Amen, amen, and amen.

I entirely agree. Jesus' form of "social service" was hands on and personal. He touched the lepers he healed. He taught. He formed personal relations — and these allowed him to have a much bigger and better impact than a welfare check.

Yes and no. In Matthew's Gospel, Jesus' ministry begins —

(Mat 4:23 ESV) 23 And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.

– and ends —

(Mat 25:1 NIV) 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

There's a very noticeable lesson here that's just as prominently displayed as the Great Commission: love means helping people in need. But that doesn't mean we turn our benevolence over to some governmental or even a distant church-affiliated social agency. Neither do we limit our concern to the beggars we happen to run across. Rather, we should be driven by compassion to help those we can help because that's how Jesus was — and is. And I can think of nothing more exciting and wonderful than to be more like Jesus.