Community Disciplines: Romans on Discipline (Faith and Opinion)

GuestforTruth wrote,

Matters of faith are those things imposed upon us because God has spoken concerning them. Matters of faith are those revelations in His Word that make up the faith or religion of Jesus Christ.” … when in the Scriptures we read the context in all passages that talk about faith you will find that sometime the inspired writers talk as “THE FAITH” that is the whole Gospel as it is written in God’s word . You are misunderstanding the part about “opinions” that we understand as “expediency” (opinion are matters that demand and allow the exercise of human judgment.)

GuestforTruth,

You state the traditional view well enough, but when the New Testament speaks of “faith,” it’s referring to faith in Jesus. Read the text. Read the context.

Certainly, there are many other things taught in the Bible that are true. And certainly we should have confidence the Bible. But to call Bible things by Bible names, you must use “faith” to refer to faith in Jesus. And you must use “gospel” to refer to the good news about Jesus.

“Gospel”

(Rom 1:1-6 ESV)  Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ …

(1Co 15:1 ESV) Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

The gospel is what we must believe to be saved. It’s what we preach to the lost. Therefore, questions about instrumental music are not “the gospel.” Read the text. The gospel is summed up: “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” That’s surely what you confessed when you were baptized. That’s the good news.

“The faith”

Consider some usages of “the faith” —

(Act 6:7 ESV) And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.

(Act 14:22 ESV) strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

(Act 15:9 ESV) and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by [the] faith.

(Act 16:5 ESV) So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

(Rom 4:19 ESV) He did not weaken in [the] faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.

(Rom 5:2 ESV) Through him we have also obtained access by [the] faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

(Rom 11:20 ESV) That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through [the] faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

(Rom 14:1 ESV) As for the one who is weak in [the] faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

(1Co 16:13 ESV) Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

(2Co 13:5 ESV) Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

(Phi 1:27 ESV) Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

(Phi 3:9 ESV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on [the] faith–

(Col 1:23 ESV) if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

(Col 2:7 ESV) rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

(2Ti 3:10 ESV) You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my [the] faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,

(Tit 1:13 ESV) This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

(Tit 2:2 ESV) Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in [the] faith, in love, and in steadfastness.

(Heb 4:2 ESV) For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by [the] faith with those who listened.

These are all exactly the same in the Greek: ?? ?????? = “the faith.” When I insert [the], it’s because the “the” is present in the Greek but omitted by the translators.

(1Co 13:2 NIVO) If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have [the] faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

(Gal 1:23 ESV) They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

(Gal 3:23 ESV) Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

(1Ti 1:18-19 ESV) 18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding [the] faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

(1Ti 5:8 ESV) 8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

(1Ti 6:21 ESV) 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.

(2Ti 3:8 ESV) 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.

(2Ti 4:7 ESV) 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

(Phm 1:5 ESV) 5 because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints,

(Heb 13:7 ESV) Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith [=the faith of them].

(Jam 2:1 ESV) My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

These all contain ??? ??????, also meaning “the faith.” There may be other constructions, but surely these are enough to make the point.

Sometimes the phrase could be argued to mean “the Christian religion” but not always or even most of the time. But it could always mean “faith in Jesus”or “the gospel.”

You see, the idea of using “faith” to refer to “a religion” is a modern English construction utterly foreign to First Century Greek readers. They didn’t speak of different religions as “different faiths.” Rather, “faith” simply meant trust, belief, and loyalty. Therefore, when we take “the faith” as meaning “the Christian religion” or even “the Christian doctrinal system,” we’re importing modern denominational thinking into our reading. It’s utterly foreign to the text.

Indeed, the use of “faith” to mean “doctrinal system” or “religion” isn’t found in the Greek dictionaries. Now, there are cases above where “the faith” seems to refer to the essence of Christian teaching. But ask yourself: Why could the First Century church use “faith” to summarize the essence of the Christian message? Obviously, because the Christian message is faith in Jesus. It’s the gospel. (It’s technically metonymy, using “faith” to refer to that which is believed: the gospel.)

Take for example,

(Col 1:23 ESV) if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

“The faith” is parallel with “the hope of the gospel you heard.” That’s “the faith”! To “continue in the faith” is to remain firm in “the hope of the gospel.”

(Phi 1:27 ESV) Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

In Philippians, “the faith of the gospel” is equated to “gospel of Christ.”

The meaning should also be very clear in —

(Phi 3:9 ESV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on [the] faith–

“[The] faith” is equated to “faith in Christ” in contrast to righteousness from the law.

(Heb 4:2 ESV) For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by [the] faith with those who listened.

“The faith” equates to “good news” and “the message they heard.”

(1Ti 5:8 ESV) 8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

To “deny the faith” is much as same as being an “unbeliever.”

Bible words for Bible things. “The faith” means either “faith in Jesus” or “the gospel.” And the meaning of these texts would blossom from a denominational, creedal understanding to a personal relationship if you’d read the text this way.

You see, the Reformation leaders announced various “confessions of faith,” which were multi-page, complex positions statements on theology. They then bound these are terms of fellowship. And when we take “the faith” to mean “doctrinal system,” we’re perpetuating their error and becoming creedalists. It’s exactly what the Restoration Movement was founded to flee.

One final point —

(Rom 14:1 ESV) As for the one who is weak in [the] faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Romans 14 deals with those who are weak “in the faith.” If “the faith” refers to non-negotiable, essential beliefs, such as, I suppose, rejection of instrumental music, what does “weak in the faith” mean? These are, you know, people to be accepted and not condemned! If they are weak in their rejection of instrumental music, we are supposed to accept them!

But if “faith” means “faith in Jesus,” then “weak in the faith” means “having a weak faith in Jesus.” They believe but their faith isn’t strong enough to allow them to give up their scruples — their concerns about eating and holy days. Paul’s implication is that a strong faith will lead a believer to no longer rely on such works.

Paul tolerates an imperfect faith so long as they tolerate those with a strong faith (those without scruples) — and he insists that the strong do the same. All must have faith.

If the Bible reader will stick close to what “faith” really means, the interpretation of these passages is straightforward, even obvious. But when we inject denominational concepts into a First Century text, focusing on interpretations of the silence and labeling them as “faith,” we utterly corrupt the scriptures.

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
This entry was posted in Christian Disciplines, Romans, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

12 Responses to Community Disciplines: Romans on Discipline (Faith and Opinion)

  1. Tim Miller says:

    I agree with your conclusions regarding use of the terms “faith” and “the faith”. Another similar argument I’ve seen (but have not deeply explored) is that the term “faith” morphed into “the faith” early in the 2nd century and did become the body of doctrine many refer to.

    I think a similar mistake is made when it comes to the meaning “word of God” in the NT. It frequently could have meant the OT, but it meant anything that was spoken by God through his apostles, prophets and perhaps evangelists. I believe it was meant in the same way as the phrase “word of God” was used in the OT. Today, most immediately conclude “word of God” in NT scripture is the Bible as we have it. Not likely nor possible given the time line for canonization.

  2. aBasnar says:

    Well, but does not faith in Christ include agreement and obedience to all he taught? He is building his church for instance – so we are to built according to His plan, we are only co-workers, He is the master.

    And did He not send the Apostles to further instruct, equip and build up the churches? Whoever receives them receives the Lord, and what they teach are commands of the Lord (unless explicitly stated otherwise).

    Your long and by no means exhaustive list of verses misses the point if they were to “reduce” the faith to a “reduced” gospel. But when we confess Christ as Lord, ALL that he said becomes a matter of faith – the whole New Testament and the whole Old Testament (in the light of the New). Not that if we misunderstand or just don’t know yet a spefic topic in the scriptures we are lost, but that we cultivate an open heart to receive God’s Revelation (which is always Christ-centered) with faith(fulness).

    A problem I see with the term Gospel: It becomes a “code word” that is hardly ever undetrstood in its full meaning. Therefore the Kingdom normally does not appear in our Gospel messages, therefore obedience of faith is taught (if at all) much later after our conversion. By this we “reduce” the Gospel to what happened on the cross – but Christ did not have to be a Son of David to become a Lamb slain for sinners. And consequently “Son of David” becomes a meaningless title as soon as we reduce the gospel of the Kingdom to a gospel of forgiveness.

    Alexander

  3. laymond says:

    (Jam 2:1 ESV) My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

    First we have to have faith (trust) in the teacher, before we can have faith (trust) in the message he gives.
    The gospel, was the “good news” Jesus brought. The news of salvation.

  4. Jerry says:

    Matters of faith are those things imposed upon us because God has spoken concerning them. Matters of faith are those revelations in His Word that make up the faith or religion of Jesus Christ.”

    In Romans 14:23, “But whoever has doubts is damned if he eats, because whatever is not from faith is sin,” faith is sometimes linked with Romans 10:17, “so then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” to draw the conclusion GuestforTruth reaches. The context of Romans 14, however, leads one to a different conclusion.

    The context suggests that one who eats while having the scruples that forbid eating, who thus has “doubt” about being able to eat without sin, does sin in eating. Why is this? Simply because if our conscience says something is wrong and we do it anyway, we have effectively said to God, “I am going to do what I believe you have condemned, because I value my will more than your command.” Such an attitude is always sin, whether God has actually commanded otherwise or not.

  5. rich constant says:

    all verses taken from
    New English Translation
    GOOD NEWS OF THE COMING PROMISED KINGDOM
    THROUGH FAITHFULNESS.

    whose faithfulness is this?whose words,and concerning what?
    Rom
    3:1 Therefore what advantage does the Jew have, or what is the value of circumcision? 3:2 Actually, there are many advantages.1 First of all,2 the Jews3 were entrusted with the oracles of God.4 3:3 What then? If some did not believe,
    does their unbelief NULLIFY THE FAITHFULNESS OF GOD?
    3:4 Absolutely not! Let God be proven true, and every human being5 shown up as a liar,
    6 just as it is written: “so that you will be justified7 in your words and will prevail when you are judged.”8

    3:21 BUT NOW26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets)27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
    ROM
    9:30 What shall we say then? – that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing55 a law of righteousness56 did not attain it.57 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued58 it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works.59 They stumbled over the stumbling stone,60 9:33 just as it is written,

    “Look, I am laying in Zion a stone that will cause people to stumble
    and a rock that will make them fall,61
    yet the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.”6
    2

    ROM.
    15:7 Receive one another, then, just as Christ also received you, to God’s glory.

    15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the circumcised4 on behalf of God’s truth to confirm the promises made to the fathers,5

    15:9 and thus the Gentiles glorify God for his mercy.6 As it is written, “Because of this I will confess you among the Gentiles, and I will sing praises to your name.”7 15:10 And again it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”8 15:11 And again, “Praise the Lord all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise him.”9 15:12 And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, and the one who rises to rule over the Gentiles, in him will the Gentiles hope.”10 15:13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you believe in him,11 so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    GAL.
    2:15 We are Jews by birth47 and not Gentile sinners,48 2:16 yet we know49 that no one50 is justified by the works of the law51 but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.52 And53 we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ54 and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one55 will be justified. 2:17 But if while seeking to be justified in Christ we ourselves have also been found to be sinners, is Christ then one who encourages56 sin? Absolutely not! 2:18 But if I build up again those things I once destroyed,57 I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God’s law.58 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ,59 and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So60 the life I now live in the body,61 I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God,62 who loved me and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not set aside63 God’s grace, because if righteousness64 could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!65.

    WHOSE WORD?
    WAS JESUS FAITHFUL TO.

    JOHN
    17:5 And now, Father, glorify me at your side12 with the glory I had with you before the world was created.13

    Jesus Prays for the Disciples

    17:6 “I have revealed14 your name to the men15 you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you,16 and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed17 your word. 17:7 Now they understand18 that everything19 you have given me comes from you, 17:8 because I have given them the words you have given me. They20 accepted21 them22 and really23 understand24 that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

  6. rich constant says:

    the difference in these translations?

    net bible
    a christocentric translation

    what Christ’s faithfulness did for me in the act of my redemption

    esv
    an anthropocentric translation
    what my faith does in the act of my redemption

    PHIL. 3:9
    NET BIBLE
    3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness11 – a righteousness from God that is in fact12 based on Christ’s13 faithfulness

    (Phi 3:9 ESV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on [the] faith–

  7. Jack Exum Jr says:

    Good discussion Jay and everyone else. If salvation is base on our agreeing on everything… we have a problem. Sometimes we can’t even agree on the color of the carpet we put in the building.

  8. guestfortruth says:

    My point here about “THE FAITH” , there is One Faith Eph. 4:5 . What we believe, and why we believe. (first steps of the Gospel “Way of Salvation ” (1 Cor. 15:1-4), living the message of the gospel (Good News from the New Testament also known as whole counsel of God ( Acts 20:27) sometime the inspired writer use the expression “Faith” as the Gospel according to the context but, not all the time. The Message of the Gospel produce faith and faithfulness in the human heart. As I said depend in the context of the word faith is used by the inspired writer. Faith is used 4 ways in the Scriptures How do we get faith? (Rom 10:17), Faith … but not faith only! (Jas 2:24) Here is a outline that explain it!
    I. Introduction
    A. Faith is not just part of religion but every aspect of our everyday lives:
    1. Science: Ever seen electricity? You accept it by faith
    2. Geography: Ever seen the Eiffel Tower?
    3. Evolutionist’s often chide those who believe in God for their faith
    a. No one has ever seen any evidence for evolution it is purely theory
    b. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than God
    4. Store phones you to say your order is ready.
    a. You accept by faith the word of the operator that the order is ready
    b. Driving down to pick up the order is an ACT OF FAITH
    5. We accept God because of testimony of creation & Bible Rom 1:18-20
    a. Repentance and obedience to God’s word is an ACT OF FAITH
    B. Simple definition of faith: Heb 11:1
    1. Faith is the substance of hope
    a. “Substance”: Lit. Greek: “a standing under”
    b. Faith “stands under” our hope, is the foundation of our hope: Rom 8:24.25
    c. Faith is the “title-deed” our pledge to things hoped: Heb 3:14
    2. Faith is the conviction of things not seen: Heb 11:3
    a. We accept God not only exists but He created everything in 6 days
    3. Faith accepts even that which appears unreasonable: Rom 4:17
    II. Faith (Gr: pistis) used in four ways:
    A. #1: A Personal Belief, Mental Acceptance & Acknowledgement Of God’s Existence:
    1. Heb 11:1,6 Assurance of things hoped for conviction of things not seen
    2. 2 Cor 4:18 We look at not at things seen, but at things not seen
    3. 2 Cor 5:7 we walk by faith not sight
    4. Jn 20:27-29 how blessed are they who have not seen but believe
    B. #2: A conduct or work inspired by the compete surrender to mental acceptance:
    1. Just as repentance can be seen: Mt 3:7-8, so too “faith can be seen”: Mt 9:2
    2. Jas 2:14-26 We show our faith by our works
    3. We must have an obedient faith:
    a. Obedience of faith: Rom 1:5; 15:18: 16:26
    b. Acts 6:7 word kept spreading, great many priests became obedient to the faith
    c. Mt 7:21-27 not only call “Lord”, but obey
    d. by faith, Abraham obeyed: Heb 11
    4. Faith is said to do work:
    a. Gal 5:6 faith working through love
    b. 1 Th 1:3; 2 Th 1:11 work of faith
    c. Heb 13:7 considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith
    C. #3: A trusting or trustworthiness: (pistis)
    1. Mt 24:45; 25:21,23; Lk 19:17 “faithful servant”
    2. Rom 3:3 the faithfulness of God
    3. 1 Cor 4:2 stewards must be faithful
    4. 1 Cor 15:14,17 if Christ is not raised your faith is vain, worthless
    5. 2 Th 1:3 your faith is greatly enlarged
    D. #4: The System Of Doctrine And Morality Peculiar To Christianity:
    1. Statements encouraging us to properly maintain the system of faith
    a. Jude 3 contend earnestly for the faith
    b. Gal 1:23 preaching the faith he once tried to destroy
    c. Eph 4:5 only one faith
    d. Eph 4:23 until we all attain to the unity of the faith
    a. Acts 14:22 encouraging them to continue in the faith
    f. Acts 16:5 strengthen in the faith
    g. 2 Cor 13:5 test yourselves to see if you are in the faith
    h. 1 Cor 16:13 stand firm in the faith
    i. 2 Ti 4:7 1 have kept the faith
    1. 1 Tit 1:13 reprove then that they may be sound in the faith
    k. 1 Ti 4:1 in later times some will fall away from the faith
    1. 1 Ti 4:6 nourished on the words of the faith and sound doctrine
    m. 1 Ti 6:10 wandered away from the faith
    n. 1 Ti 6:2021 Gone astray from the faith
    2. Statements of general interest:
    a. Gal 3:23 before the faith came we were under the law
    b. Gal 6:10 especially the household of the faith
    c. Acts 6:7 obedient to the faith
    d. Rom 10:8 word of faith we preach
    a. Lk 18:8 will Jesus find the faith upon the earth when He returns
    III. How do we get faith?
    A. Some wrongly teach faith comes directly from God, the Holy Spirit or Jesus
    1. The Holy Spirit directly imparts faith independently of any medium.
    2. God directly “operates” upon the sinner’s heart to make Him a believer.
    3. Problem: If a man has no faith, it is God’s fault!
    a. 1 Ti 2:34; 2 Pe 3:9 God’s desire is for all to believe!
    b. Jn 8:24 “unless you believe…” Jesus places responsibility upon man
    4. Col 2:18 Many people claim God revealed something to then when God hasn’t.
    B. God indirectly imparts faith through the sodium or instrument of the Bible:
    1. Rom 10:5-18
    a. Who will ascend into heaven? ANSWER: Deut 30:10-14
    b. V8 “the word of faith”
    c. V17 faith comes from hearing the word of Christ
    2. Jn 20:30-31 these things are written that you may believe
    3. Jn 17:20,21 believe on me through their word.
    4. Bible and faith used interchangeably: Acts 13:7,8 Gal 1:11,23
    5. Acts 14:1 spoke in such a manner that many believed
    6. Acts 15:7 hear the word of the gospel and believe
    7. Acts 17:11,12 searched the scriptures daily-many therefore believed
    8. Acts 18:8 many Corinthians, when they heard were believing being baptized
    IV. Faith … but not faith only!
    A. There is a difference between faith only and saving faith: Jas 2:17,24
    1. Demons believe, even confess Jesus as Lord: Jas 2:19; Mk 1:24.25
    2. Jn 7:12.13 no one was openly speaking of His
    3. Jn 12:42-43 many believed but would not confess the name of Jesus
    4. Jn 9:22 Parents would not confess for fear of being put out of synagogue
    V. Conclusion:
    A. If we walk by faith and not by sight, how can we see faith: 2 Cor 5:7
    B. Yet faith allows us to SEE THE UNSEEN and BELIEVE THE UNBELIEVABLE
    C. “If God said it, I believe it and that settles it!”

    Sincerely,

    Guestfortruth.

  9. Jay Guin says:

    Tim M,

    I need to study on “word of God” in the OT.

    (1Sa 9:27 ESV) As they were going down to the outskirts of the city, Samuel said to Saul, “Tell the servant to pass on before us, and when he has passed on, stop here yourself for a while, that I may make known to you the word of God.” (rhema theou)

    (Luk 3:2 ESV) during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God (rhema theou) came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.

    (Eph 6:17 ESV) and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,(rhema theou)

    Hmmm ….

  10. aBasnar says:

    but it meant anything that was spoken by God through his apostles, prophets and perhaps evangelists.

    good point:

    2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

    This leads to the interesting question where to find this “oral tradition” that we may hold fast to it. I think

    a) we see it reflected in the practice of the NT church
    b) we see it when we read everything in the NT in the light of their parallel pasages. For isntance the divorce-remarriage issue, Paul mentions things not spoken of by the Lord and vice versa – there is no conflict, but the sum total of both reflect Christ’s teaching.
    c) we should also be able top find traces of the oral teaching in the practice and doctrine of the ECF (where they agreed)

    Anyhow: A “stubborn” sola-scriptura approach is against scritpture (see 2Th 2:15).

    Alexander

  11. Pingback: One In Jesus » The Fork in the Road: “The Way of UNITY between “Christian Churches” and Churches of Christ,” Part 3

  12. Charles McLean says:

    2Th 2:15– “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”

    Alexander is right, this leads to an interesting question about just where to find this “tradition” to which Paul refers here. In an effort to honor the old encouragement to let the scripture interpret the scripture, I would have to say that Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about what he and others with him taught the Thessalonians, whether in person or by correspondence. Those who extend Paul’s statement to cover more territory do so by pure inference. But, true inference requires an initial implication –that is, we can only infer what Paul implied, i.e., “what Paul meant to say was”. What Paul did not imply, we cannot infer. What my brothers have done instead is to draw conclusions about the overall NT canon from their hermeneutic, and then overlay these conclusions after the fact onto Paul’s words to reach yet another conclusion.

    As the lawyers might say, this is not only hearsay, but double hearsay.

    If Paul is reaching much farther in his statement –as some presume– he is doing a poor job of it. He does not identify “us”, nor does he mention any other group of believers, as he does in other places.

    Analogy: In January 1950, Mom in Minneapolis says to Junior, “Like I told your brother, take off your boots when you come in the house!” Fifty years later, Junior, Jr. is telling his own son in Texas, “Guys are not allowed to wear boots indoors! Indoors, you can only wear shoes that lace up and don’t cover the ankle. Boots are for outdoor wear only, so put on your cowboy boots on the porch. As long as it’s not a screened porch, that is, because screening makes the porch ‘indoors’. In that case, you have to put your boots on while sitting on the steps. That is, unless you don’t really love and respect your Granny.”

    Thus do simple, reasonable statements between family members become eternal verities and subjects of interpretation and debate.

Comments are closed.