In the comments to Part 1 of this series, Keith Brenton has mentioned some additional passages that arguably support the “available light” theory —
(John 3:18 ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(Heb 11:6 ESV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
(Mat 7:8 ESV) 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Keith further argues,
The question is whether God shows unmerited favor to a person who has lived a life that speaks of faith, even without knowing (fully) the One in whom that faith exists.
The question …
I covered Keith’s question in detail in the “A Conversation over Lunch” series. There’s much that could be said in reply, but to me, the most compelling rejoinder is Acts and the mission work to the Jews.
The Jews believed in God. They believed God would send a Messiah. They taught and believed the Old Testament. And yet — for some reason — God sent the apostles to the Jews as missionaries to save them. Not merely to enhance their knowledge or to bring them even closer to God — but to rescue them from damnation — all despite their faith — a faith that surely satisfies the requirements of Keith’s question.
(Act 2:40 ESV) And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
(Act 2:47b ESV) And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
(Act 4:11-12 ESV) 11 “This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Clearly, the Jews weren’t yet saved when they heard the sermons preaching Jesus as Messiah. And yet surely at least a few of these Jews had “lived a life that speaks of faith, even without knowing (fully) the One in whom that faith exists.”
The over-arching narrative of Acts makes no sense if God saves those with a faith in God but not faith in Jesus as Messiah.
That’s the big picture. But we need to take the time to understand the verses that seem to say to the contrary.
John 3:18
(John 3:18 ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
If someone has never heard of Jesus, he “does not believe” and so is condemned already. We should not read “does not believe” as “disbelieves.” (The Greek is “not believed.”) This hardly supports the available light theory.
Hebrews 11:6
(Heb 11:6 ESV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
This passage does not say that seeking God is the same as having faith. It says that God rewards those who seek him … but “seek” in what sense?
Pardon the long quotation, but as is so often the case, the answer is found in Deuteronomy —
(Deu 4:25-30 ESV) 25 “When you father children and children’s children, and have grown old in the land, if you act corruptly by making a carved image in the form of anything, and by doing what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, so as to provoke him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice.
In this context, “seek” and “search” don’t mean “look for an unknown deity.” Rather, the thought is “seek the favor of YHWH” in repenting of idolatry. It’s not as though the Jews would have forgotten who there God is. The problem would be that they would lose God’s favor by being faithless and impenitent.
You see, Deu 4 prophesies a time when Israel would follow idols and could only return to God by seeking him and repenting. This speaks, of course, of the time when the Exile began — the conquest of Judea by Babylon — an Exile that was in a spiritual sense still ongoing at the time of Jesus. Moreover, the Jews were again in need to seeking God and repenting — a failure that soon led to the second destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by foreign armies.
Similar is —
(Psa 34:4 ESV) 4 I sought the LORD, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.
David hadn’t lost his knowledge of God. He wasn’t seeking an unknown deity. He sought favor and blessings from the God he knew.
Matthew 7:8
(Mat 7:8 ESV) 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
And so every single person who seeks salvation is will be saved? Every single one? Really? Again, let’s look at the context.
(Mat 7:6 ESV) 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
In Matthew for Everyone, N. T. Wright notes that “dogs” were a standard Jewish idiom for Gentiles and that “pigs” were, of course, unclean. Since Jesus was speaking of the Kingdom, he was saying not to share the Kingdom message with the Gentiles — yet. He further notes the parallel with —
(Mat 10:5-6 ESV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Another theory (and one that I prefer) is that “dogs” refers to the Romans —
It may be pointed out that in Psalm 80.14 (English verse 13) the pig, in the form of “the wild boar from the forest,” represents the enemies of both Israel and the Davidic monarchy. Influenced by Psalm 80.14, the literature of the rabbis associates the pig and the wild boar with Rome. See b. Qiddushin 39b; Genesis Rabbah 63.8, 65.1; Esther Rabbah 4.5; Leviticus Rabbah 13.5; Midrash Psalms 80.6; and Midrash Song of Songs 3.4.2.
On that theory, Jesus is declaring that the Jews should not place their faith in the power of Rome — and that sets up this contrast —
(Mat 7:7-11 ESV) 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!”
Jesus is, of course, speaking of the Kingdom. This is not obvious to many, but the earlier parts of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount are all about the Kingdom, and his ministry was introduced in Mat 4:23 as being about “proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom.”
Consider the parallel —
(Luk 11:9-13 ESV) 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
In Luke, Jesus defines “it” as the Holy Spirit — that is, the outpouring of the Spirit by God promised at the time of the coming of the Kingdom.
Back to Matthew. Jesus speaks in terms of a father giving gifts to his children — that is, he is speaking of Israel, not pagans or other strangers to God. He is saying that God will soon fulfill his promises to Israel.
(Jer 29:13-14 ESV) 13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.
In particular, Jesus is referring to the Kingdom promise Jer 29 and, as previously quoted,
(Deu 4:29 ESV) 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
And I should add —
(Isa 55:6-7 ESV) 6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
— which Calvin interprets to say in his commentary on Isaiah —
After having spoken of the good success of the gospel among the Gentiles, who formerly were strangers to the kingdom of God, he urges the Jews to be ashamed of loitering while others run; for since they were the first who were called, it is shameful that they should be last. This exhortation, therefore, relates strictly to the Jews, to whom the example of the Gentiles is held out in order to excite their jealousy; in the same manner as the Lord hath foretold that “he would provoke the Jews to jealousy by a foolish nation.” (De 32:21)
And Calvin’s exegesis fits very nicely with the Sermon on the Mount (as well as Rom 11).
In short, the passage is a message to the Jews, promising the imminent coming of the long-promised Kingdom. That is, don’t give up praying and hoping. God still loves his children, and he will honor his promises soon.
Don’t turn to Rome or the Greeks (as the Sadducees do), but put your faith in God. He will save you by his grace. Salvation is not found in the kingdoms of this world but in God’s Kingdom.
In short, this passage is not promising salvation to all who pray to God. It’s promising the Kingdom, and its blessings, to God’s children.
By the way, I think Jesus’ language borrows from —
(Psa 78:23-25 ESV) 23 Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven, 24 and he rained down on them manna to eat and gave them the grain of heaven. 25 Man ate of the bread of the angels; he sent them food in abundance.
In other words, he the “door” to be knocked on is the door of heaven, and that the bread to be given is bread from heaven. Therefore, the “good things” God will give will be something poured out from heaven — the Spirit, God’s true word, and the Kingdom.
Now, we normally take this part of the Sermon on the Mount as being proverbial — vague promises of God’s good will toward his people — suitable for sticking on the refrigerator with magnets.
And it is — but it’s better. It’s more real. It’s more concrete. It’s more present. The Kingdom has come. The Spirit has been outpoured. The Word has lived among us. These promises have all been fulfilled — and they continue to be fulfilled every day.
Our problem is that we pray for too little and take God’s gifts for granted. Rather than appreciating the miracle that our congregations are, we pray for better congregations, not seeing the Spirit present and Jesus living among us. Therefore, because we diminish the value of the Kingdom already given in our thinking, we fail to enjoy and delight in the fact that God has already opened the doors of heaven and showered gifts upon us.
I too am not on board with the “available light” theory. Nor do I believe the “whoever” scriptures above prove “available light”. If this is true we simply need to urge people to seek God and not worry about Jesus Christ. If this is true, anyone, anywhere who has ever earnestly sought God – whether Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc… will have the chance to be saved. The blood of Christ is necessary to wash away “our” sins but apparently isn’t required for those who don’t know Christ.
The most convincing argument against the “available light” theory, to me, is what Jesus said about the wide and narrow road. Only a few will find it. That doesn’t mean God won’t save someone who never had a satisfactory knowledge of Jesus. But if he does, it will be the exception rather than the rule. Most people are on the broad road that leads to destruction.
Whoever doesn’t find and believe in Jesus wasn’t looking. And they will be lost for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved. It is a simple truth.
Thanks Jay, for teaching it.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:13-14
Seems rather dire that one’s eternal destination is dependent upon whether or not someone else is responsible enough to preach the good news… but…
Is there a message in this verse? Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” vs.20…
Is it possible that God would make sure that all men would have an opportunity to “hear” or be lead to some form of understanding?
I too appreciate Jays views even though I disagree and he lets me. But, does it matter which way we see this at judgment day?
Whether God condemns all to hell but us Church of Christers or lets all others of all denominations and faiths or those that worshiped Him ignorantly like those at Athens did enter heaven because Jesus blood cleansed them as well.
God will judge us all individually and then we will know, but, either way will be OK with me.
I worry if we sin by absolutely making that call instead of, or for, God.
I highly recommend Al Maxeys recent post on Sectarianism that is along this line of thought and very amusing while at the same time sad. He visited a Baptist Church his son attends and the comments he received from we Church of Christers are unbelievable.
Quote from C.S.Lewis
“We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ;we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him”
We don’t know what His arrangements for the others are but many have told God what He should do.
Romans 10:18 ESV
But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
I’m pretty sure that among other things, the accounts of the Eunuch and Cornelius teach us that God is definately willing and able to see to it that those seeking after the truth, shall find it.
Those are two clear pictures of “seek and ye SHALL find” being played out. Whoever doesn’t find the truth was simply not seeking hard enough. And WHOEVER does not believe in Jesus is condemned already. Period.
When a person insists that all nonbelievers of the truth are lost, he is NOT “telling God what to do”, rather, he is believing what God has already determined.
When God makes a statement (like whoever does not believe is condemned), when we say “maybe they wont be condemned”, we are not “allowing God to be God”. Really, when we do that, we are doubting and/or denying his word. And there is nothing good about doing that.
“seek the favor of YHWH”
That is the first time I have ever seen the true definition of “grace” on this blog. Grace is something that is sought after, (not just thrown around willy nilly) sought after how? by obeying the demands of God, doing the work he gave us.
I know grace is freely given to some–Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Please anyone, explain to me what Jesus meant when he said
Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I read “the poor in spirit” to mean a deficiency in “the spirit of knowledge” whether because of a deficiency in ability to understand, or denyed the opportunity to understand. It seems to me that no matter the cause they are both at a disadvantage, and in all fairness, cannot be left behind to suffer the terriable death reserved for Satan, and his followers.
Two points: 1) Grace cannot be won by “doing the commands of God” or “doing the work he gave us”. If that is the case then grace is no longer grace. By definition grace is unmerited favor. We simply surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and upon that surrender God will bestow his grace. Grace continues to flow as long as we stay surrendered. Surrender leads to obedience but the obedience does not obligate God to give me grace. 2) The beatitudes follow a logical sequence leading us from conversion to a fruitful life to persecution. “Poor in spirit” means that I am not arrogant or haughty but that I am broken and now open to God’s plan for my life. If I’m poor in spirit then I am unteachable and cannot go any further with the Lord.
I meant to say: “If I’m not poor in spirit then I am unteachable and cannot go any further with the Lord.”
Laymond opined, “I read “the poor in spirit” to mean a deficiency in “the spirit of knowledge” whether because of a deficiency in ability to understand, or denyed the opportunity to understand. ”
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So, “spirit” really equals “knowledge”? I have never heard it articulated quite like this before, but now that I have, I realize that this is pretty much the doctrine I grew up with in the CoC. I heard it for years, albeit indirectly.
“Poor in spirit,” as I understand it, is having humility and knowing that I am helpless when it comes to saving myself – that I must throw myself completely and wholly on God and His mercy for my redemption and reconciliation to him.
The hymn writer caught the spirit of these words when he wrote, “Nothing in my hand I bring / Simply to Thy Cross I cling.”
Yes Charles spirit of knowledge or truth.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Charles do you believe that people without knowledge will be convicted and sentenced to death by a just God.? Adam and Eve had the knowledge that if obeyed would “save” them but intentionally disobeyed. There are those who never have that knowledge, and if they do hear, they don’t comprehend.
Or do you believe as AJ does that “Poor in spirit” means that I am not arrogant or haughty but that I am broken and now open to God’s plan for my life” and you will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Interestingly, if a person does not have the mental ability to comprehend or understand the Bible, they are not held accountable and are saved whatever they do or how they live. I don’t know a single person that disagrees with this thinking.
Continuing that thinking, it would of been a blessing in most parts of the world, including the USA where the word was not preached correctly (meaning as I believe) to of been born mentally deficient. For only those in that mental shape would be saved.
Please explain the difference in a mentally deficient person not being able to understand and one deprived mentally of the knowledge by God placing them in an environment or place on this earth where the truth is not known and no teacher to bring it to them.
Their lack of ability to obey is the same. One goes to heaven and the other to hell.
Kind of silly thinking don’t you think, but taught boldly by some and by most in a round a bout fashion regularly as fact.
You either do it this way or to hell with you. I din’t see any exceptions listed, not one.
The dogs of Mt. 7:6 could be the same as the wolves of 7:15, “false prophets.” And these wolves would include those in 10:16, who will oppose the disciples’ mission to Israel. In 10:17 such wolves will whip disciples in “their synagogues.” So the wolves and dogs here seem to be especially the rulers in the synagogues, the infamous scribes/rabbis of the Pharisees. They are Jesus’ main opponents in the plot conflict of the Gospel story; it’s Jesus new kingdom of heaven versus the kingdoms of earth, beginning with the kingdom of Israel.
The scribes were the revered “fathers” of Israel. But Jesus warns his disciples not to call anyone “father” because they have only one Father, the one in heaven (Mt. 23:2,9). Thus the Lord’s prayer begins by addressing “our Father, the one in heaven, let your name be revered” (6:9). The dogged scribes should not be honored by giving them what is holy, what is revered, especially the title Father.
When Jesus blesses the “poor in spirit” in 5:3, the blessing is the kingdom of heaven. The parallel in Lk. 6:20 is blessing the poor with the presence of the kingdom of God. The context of Lk. 6:20 is Jesus talking to his disciples, and blessing “you poor” (disciples) with the kingdom. And the context of Mt. 5:3 (also focused on disciples) could suggest a different view than the usual “humble” or “lacking understanding.” I favor the translation “the poor in the Spirit;” there is a Greek “article” (the) before the Greek word for spirit (pneuma).
Every use of the word pneuma before 5:3 (in 1:18,20; 3:11,16; and 4:1) refers to the Holy Spirit. In 3:2,11 John the Baptist links the approaching kingdom of heaven with the coming baptism of the Spirit. In 3:16 the new king is anointed by the Spirit descending from heaven; then the king is led by the Spirit into the desert where he suffers hunger. The strongest temptation he faces from the serpent spirit is becoming king of all the kingdoms of the world (and enjoying their glory/wealth). But in the power of the Spirit he refuses and remains faithful to his Father and new kingdom.
So Jesus is the first example of the “poor in the Spirit.” Yet in the future he will baptize his disciples with the Spirit, disciples who have left much to follow him, dependent on the hospitality of others. These disciples will be his new kingdom.
John said, “You either do it this way or to hell with you. I din’t see any exceptions listed, not one”
I believe I just listed two John, and I don’t know if you agreed or not. The scripture I just quoted is the most powerful in the book, to make exceptions.
“poor in spirit” either not taught, or can’t understand.Why do you think the age of accountability is twenty and above? (yes the bible says that)
AJ,
Any person who seeks the truth shall find it. Jesus said so. But, nobody will be saved without knowing, believing, and obeying it.
The Bible promises that destruy ALL them that know not God and who do not obey the gospel.
I wish everybody would be saved no matter what they do and/or believe…but that’s just not what the Bible teaches.
Laymond and Alabama John, Something to consider. Before we say that God won’t punish the ignorant we must grapple with Romans 1:20
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
Also, in Acts 17:29,30 it says,
“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”
All people everywhere sounds like all people on the earth. Thus no one, wherever they live can have an excuse now.
I agree with you Laymond. Good points in my rush and typing I forgot. Enjoy your posts!!!
Hank,
I agree that all that seek will find, just might not be the same as we have found or different for folks in differing circumstances. That’s where I think we differ. Jesus blood was shed for ALL. I heard the ALL loud and clear.
Skip,
So much can be grappled with, but, in the final thinking and opinions we can live our lives believing with all our heart God is love and wants all to be saved, or, God is a God that created man knowing by far most of His creation is destined for eternal punishment. Most due to circumstances beyond their control, never hearing a COC preacher teach them or read or seen a Bible and will burn in hell forever. This is a condition today in many countries much less throughout history. When you expand on that thinking, all denominations, all that throughout the ages that never heard, and all the COC that don’t obey (as I in my wisdom think they should), you sure narrow that road to only a few, very few, and God is not the God I want to worship. Fear, yes, but not worship and impossible to love.
Those that know better and live in sin and choose hell will sure get their wish. WE all agree with that.
I’ll choose to worship the loving God and go face Him at judgment day expecting, not due to anything I did as chief sinner above all, but expecting His love, grace, mercy and above all His son Jesus blood shed for me to forgive and save me.
Which do you think creates the most confident, happier life and which one causes real, genuine, from the heart love for God that God wants from us?
In Isaiah 55:8,9 it says
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
God is love. God says that all men are without excuse. I believe God is loving, just, and gracious and I believe His challenging scriptures on the need for the blood of Christ. I don’t have to reconcile it with my sense of fairness. As the scripture above says, “My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”. Let’s let God be God and trust that it will all make sense on judgement even for those who have never heard the gospel. And by the way, I don’t presume that the Church of Christ has it figured out.
10-4 AGREED!!!
“I believe God is loving, just, and gracious and I believe His challenging scriptures on the need for the blood of Christ. I don’t have to reconcile it with my sense of fairness. As the scripture above says, “My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”. Let’s let God be God and trust that it will all make sense on judgement even for those who have never heard the gospel.” — Skip
With all due respect, the scripture on “the need for the blood of Christ” are not “challenging”, rather, they are plentiful and plain.
And when God declared that “my ways are higher than your ways”, he did not mean that he might might decide to judge differently than according to his word.
Again, “letting God be God” does not necessitate leaving him room to act differently than his revealed revelation. What he said via the scriptures are true, and he will not act apart from them.
Accordingly, all sinners who “have not heard the gospel” will be destroyed. God said — “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
God said concerning them that “obey not the gospel”, that he WILL take vengeance on them. And nobody can obey the gospel without first learning of it.
Those who seek shall find, those who don’t shall not and will be condemned.
“Letting God be God” requires us to believe and to teach what he has told us. Without watering anything down.
Those who never heard the gospel will be lost, for they cannot believe and obey that which they have never heard. And, the gospel IS God’s power unto salvation.
@ Skip
Surrendering to the Lordship of Christ by definition is a pledge of obedience.
If grace follows such repenmtance, then the definition of “unmerited” should be reconsidered. Rather: Grace takes our words for granted that we truly want to follow Him.
Therefore: Grace continues to flow as long as we stay surrendered. Being surrendered to a Lord means to give up self-will and to obey the master. Such a definition makes Grace HIGHLY dependent on our obedience.
How do we find grace? Yes, by surrendering to the Lord and staying surrendered. Take Noah for instance:
Noah’s example and your own definitions show plainly that the dichotomy grace vs works is a false dichotomy, as fals as faith vs works. They all are interwoven and cannot be separated.
Alexander
P.S. Obedience does not obligate God to show us grace, but He is moved to show us His grace by our obedience (see Cornelius as another example).
Another note: See how God brags about people who truly do His will:
This shows me that my conduct plays quite role in the way God looks at me.
Alexander
Hank, I am confused. I believe everything you wrote and said as much. I don’t have an argument with your reasoning. Did I miss something???
Alexander, You missed my point. Everything you say I agree with except the point that our works convince God to show us grace.
Ephesians 2:8,9
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. ”
Here it says grace has NOTHING to do with works.
Paul says that he worked hard as a consequence of grace not in order to receive grace. I Corinthians 15:10
“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.”
Paul did not first work hard and thus God showed him grace. Paul says that grace on him had an effect and consequently, because of grace, he worked hard. Your approach teaches works based salvation. But I think you believe that is the way to be saved based upon prior posts.
Which works, Skip? Works in general or worls of the Mosaic Law?
Alexander
Any work I do to obligate God to save me is a disqualified work. We don’t work for our salvation, we work from our salvation. This goes back to the scripture I quoted above in Ephesians 2
Did I say “obligate” – No. God is not obligated by what we do. But he is very much inclined to show us His favor (grace) when we search Him diligently, and strive to do His will. He rewards those who seek Him.
This preceded the Grace bestowed on Noah. This preceded the Grace bestowed on Cornelius. Again, not as an obligation, but God just loves that.
As for Eph 2:8-9 the context is the ongoing and difficult debate whether Gentiles must be circumcized and keep the Law in order to be saved. These are the works, Paul ALWAYS means when talking about works vs grace. He rightfully (also) says that his almost perfect adherence (he called himself even “blameless”) did not earn him salvation, because in his zeal he turned out to be even an enemy of God. We might wish that this debate was settled in Acts 15, but it went on as long as there was a dominant Jewish Christian community living in the shadow of the Temple. So Paul had to deal with this in nearly all of his letters. We make a huge mistake when we generalize these works.
On the other hand: “The righteous shall live by faith” is even an OT principle. It is important to think itr through:
The righteous will not live by his righteousness
The unrighteous (as is said frequently) will not inherit the Kingdom
The righteous shall live by faith
Again it makes no sense at all to try to separate works from faith.
BTW: An excellent article on Eph 2:8-9 can be found in The Heartbeat of the Remnant It’s titles “Hijacked” and describes how the key words of this text have all been hijacked and flown into a different direction than they were actually heading to.
Alexander
I think we are splitting hairs. I’ve always understood that faith and works are intertwined. It seems you agree with me that grace cannot be earned by works so I believe we are on the same page.
Skip, grace is given because of works, whether it is fully earned or not.
This is witnessed over and over in the bible.
I see numerous scriptures that disagree with your work for grace position. So let’s agree to disagree.
Alexander, I read through your article “The Heartbeat of the Remnant”. The author builds up several straw men and then tears them down. None of the scenarios he draws or beliefs he shoots down are my views. He makes assumptions apparently addressing a different crowd from the one I run with. I do agree with his one statement “But the grace of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God, given to those who receive Jesus as the Prophet, Priest, and King of their entire being.” This is what I have always believed. Grace is a free gift given to me by God, not because of my works. This however doesn’t exonerate me from obedience or from the lordship of Jesus. If Jesus isn’t Lord of my life then I ultimately can’t be saved. This has been my consistent position for years.
Well, Skip, sometimes at least you don’t sound that way. You use argumentation or phrases that sound a lot like the position Mike Atnip wrote against (they are no straw men, they do exist). But that’s fine with me.
Alexander
I take the contrary position when I smell legalism.
We should try not to argue in extremes, but from the “center”.
I think we both argued against extremes after making assumptions about each other. I will be more careful in the future.
Charles do you believe that people without knowledge will be convicted and sentenced to death by a just God?
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This is not a question, it’s an argument– and a badly flawed one, at that– with a question mark stuck on the end. It presumes [a] that there are those to whom God chooses not to reveal himself, which idea is contrary to Romans 1, and then [b] it presupposes to be able to define what a “just God” is by its own independent standard of “justice”. I don’t buy premise A, and I see no evidence of qualifications to create definition B, and thus I see no point in commenting on the conclusion being drawn from such flawed premises.
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