The Salvation of the Jews: Grace Abounding

jewish_star

Ponder for a moment this passage —

(Rom 5:20-21 ESV)  20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,  21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It’s not so much difficult as surprising. Let me retranslate it a hair —

(Rom 5:20-21 ESV)  20 Now the law [of Moses] came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, [God’s] grace abounded all the more,  21 so that, as sin reigned in [eternal] death [before Abraham], grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord [under the Law of Moses!].

Now, in Romans, “law” means “the will of God as revealed in the Law of Moses or by other means.” The Law is considered by Paul as the ultimate revelation of God’s will, and hence the ultimate source of accountability. The Israelites, having been told God’s will on so many things, became accountable for violating God’s will on so many things. As a result, “sin increased.” And it’s obviously true.

The fact is that when God reveals himself more thoroughly, the likelihood of greater accountability for sin skyrockets. The more we know, the more we must obey, the more we fail to obey.

I base my accountability theory on this passage —

(Rom 5:12-13 ESV) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned —  13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 

Before Moses, God had revealed very little about his will, and so there was very little accountability for sin. Abram could marry his half-sister Sarai (later renamed Sarah by God) and not be accountable for violating the commands against incest in Lev 18 because the law against incest was not yet revealed. Jacob could marry sisters and yet not be accountable for sin for the same reason.

(Lev 18:18 ESV) 18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive. 

(Lev 18:9 ESV)  9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.

(Lev 18:11 ESV) 11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, brought up in your father’s family, since she is your sister. 

And this was evidently so obvious to the Israelites that Moses, as author of Genesis, makes no effort at all to defend these marriages, even though they were declared incestuous by the Law.

In Anglo-American law, we say “Ignorance of the law is no excuse,” but this is Anglo-American law, not theology. Paul declares that, in fact, ignorance of the law excuses accountability.

Indeed, the principle goes all the way back to Adam and Eve, who were accountable only for eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I mean, the principle is plainly implicit in the Creation account.

And this why Paul spends so much time in Rom 1-2 demonstrating that all mankind is sufficiently aware of God’s will to be accountable for their sin. We need a Savior not just because we sin but because we sin even when we know better. (This argument is ultimately expanded in Rom 7, where Paul reflects on the impossibility of obeying the Law even when we desperately want to obey the obey the Law, which leads to the majestic chapter 8 … ).

The law for which we’re accountable isn’t just the Law of Moses. All people have an innate sense of morality and know, without being told by God, that certain things are in fact wrong without the benefit of “special revelation,” that is, God’s explicit statement that these things are wrong. Hence, Paul can say,

(Rom 5:14 ESV)  14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 

That is, eternal death prevailed from Adam to Moses as the penalty for accountable sin, even though God had made little in the way of special revelation before the Law.

Now, some readers get very upset when I read “death” in Rom 5 as “eternal death,” but notice —

(Rom 5:17 ESV) 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 

“Life” is obviously eternal life, as Paul makes explicit in v. 21. Jesus has died on the cross and been resurrected already, and yet Christians still die. The “free gift” is not immunity from physical death but immunity from eternal death. Paul’s discussion is all about eternal death vs. eternal life. Physical death is not the opposite of eternal life. Eternal death is.

Now, we’re not really comfortable about discussing eternal death because so many believe in perpetual conscious torment (PCT) rather than a second death that is forever. But the scriptures say,

(Rev 20:14-15 ESV) 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 

(Rev 21:8 ESV)  8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

We’ve previously discussed these passages several times. For now, suffice to say that what John calls the “second death” in Rev is what Paul calls “death” in Rom 5. Just as “life” means eternal life (borrowed from Deu 30:6), “death” means eternal death. Nothing else makes any sense of the chapter at all because Jesus did not end physical death — not yet. What he defeated for his followers is eternal death.

Hence, I read Rom 5:17 as follows:

(Rom 5:17 ESV) 17 For if, because of [Adam]’s trespass, [eternal] death reigned through [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the one man Jesus Christ. 

Rather than eternal death reigning (ruling, being in charge), the saved — God’s children — will reign. We expect Paul to say that eternal life will reign, but he flips the analogy on its head and says instead that those in grace will reign.

“Reign” is a reference to the dominion over the earth given Adam and Eve in Gen 1:26-28 and to Psalm 8,

(Psa 8:3-8 ESV) 3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,  4 what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?
5 Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet,  7 all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field,  8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas. 

Paul applies this passage to Jesus in 1 Cor 15, but here the reference is to mankind.

And we usually assume that he is speaking of Christians only, because he refers to “life through the one man Jesus Christ.” And we assume that only Christians receive grace through the Messiah. But the context argues otherwise. We need to return to —

(Rom 5:20-21 ESV)  20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,  21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

When did sin increase? Well, when the Law came.

When did grace “abound all the more”? Well, when sin increased, which is when the Law came. Which means when the Law came, God provided grace for sin — and abounded in grace. The Greek word refers to abundance — more than enough!

Most commentators see “grace” as solely a Christian gift, but Moo agrees with my
reading —

However deep in the power of sin Israel may have sunk, God’s grace was deeper yet. How many times, after reminding Israel of her blatant, repeated sin, do the prophets yet proclaim the willingness of God to forgive; indeed, his settled purpose to bless his people, in spite of themselves. In Christ, of course, we find the fulfillment of the promise of God’s “superabounding” grace.

Douglas J. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1996), 349.

We have to remember that the NT’s “grace” (charis) parallels the First Testament’s chesed. Indeed, the story of Israel is God’s incredible, undeserved patience and forgiveness of Israel for its repeated idolatry and other sins. I mean, God waited centuries before finally imposing the curses of Deu 28 on Israel for their persistent and repeated rebellion.

So God did not invent unmerited favor in the New Testament. He’d been providing unmerited favor to his elect people for 1500 years — from the golden calf to Jesus. And if this isn’t right, how was anyone saved after Moses and before Jesus?

That, to me, isn’t the hard question. Rather, to me, the hard question is: How did the Jews receive abundant grace “through Jesus Christ our Lord” before the crucifixion?

Profile photo of Jay Guin

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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18 Responses to The Salvation of the Jews: Grace Abounding

  1. rich constant says:

    Number one I’ve got to ask you this since death reigned from Adam to Moses Adam being the type and because of sin everyone gets to die you’re saying Eternal death I don’t get that, but I can deal with it. then you go to Abraham and Moses and now you’re calling the law the will of God. Which I can understand that even though I think the is different than the will of God I think the law was given for a specific reason and curses were given for a specific reason and I’ll put that down later.
    basically who is the subject matter that is being talked about throughout Romans 5 if it’s not all men the creation I’ve missed something, and then there’s righteous Able in the eleventh chapter who walk by faith and all of the rest who believed in God.
    exactly what is Hades by your definition.
    exactly where is Hades by your definition. NOw exactly what is the function of Hades.
    By I think it’s kind of interesting that the Jews by law got the Curses rather than the blessings that they were expecting. and there is a reasons for that written.
    It couldn’t possibly be that they were stiff-necked People and God didn’t think that they were ever going to change and neither did Moses.
    maybe there just wasn’t a word that the Spirit could have used when Paul really was saying eternal death I’m sure thats it except there’s eternal life mentioned I don’t get that.
    is that something that you’re reading into it? by the way of an Exogeite another ontological phrase.
    Kind of reminds me of this.
    when a Greek grammarian goes over the scripture trying to define a word the theologian takes over before the grammarian is finished translating.
    being pushed by the inability to get it wrap your head around the idea that God isn’t allowed to put people in a place waiting for judgement.
    ? ?.

  2. Price says:

    I’d say Cain experienced some grace… God marked him so he would be killed..

  3. I keep messing with this what do you think so far thanks Rich
    I used this Scripture as a character quality of godliness.
    Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye
    . , harmless as doves.
    . wise as serpents
    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
    THE TRINITY IS RESPONSIBLE TO THEIR GOOD WORKS. AS WE ARE CALLED TO BE CHANGED INTO CHILDREN OF THE LIGHT,RESPONSIBLE TO HIS GOOD WORKS ALSO.
    .
    FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE INITIATED
    1:31 God saw all that he had made—and it was very good! There was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.

    ex
    34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there; and he made proclamation of the Lord by name. 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him and proclaimed: “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, and abounding in loyal love and faithfulness, 34:7 keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity, and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and on the children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”

    “Who told you that you were naked?
    Faith Defined
    The Trinity has an eternal plan initiated by the “Father”, which is accomplished by each of them in fellowship(love), in their own respects(HOPE), in regard to their agreed participation in the plan(FAITHFULNESS). Which while being accomplished would define themselves and exhibit the loving faithfulness required on their part. Which exercise’s their loving kindness (love for that which is good ‘the Creation’), to which they are responsible. Consequently, the recipients of the unmerited favor of fellowship (in the “Spirit”). Which has been revealed, Are obligated by and must correspondingly reciprocate in like Godly loving faithfulness, to facilitate the dynamic process of the eternal plan in godly fellowship

    1
    jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh in descent beginning with Adam, even prophesied of them, saying, “Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, 1:15 to execute judgment on all, and to convict every person of all their thoroughly ungodly deeds that they have committed, and of all the harsh words that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 1:16 These people are grumblers and fault-finders who go wherever their desires lead them, and they give bombastic speeches, enchanting folks for their own gain.

    Children of God
    2:28 And now, little children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from him in shame when he comes back. 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been fathered by him.
    3:1 (See what sort of love the Father has given to us: that we should be called God’s children – and indeed we are! For this reason the world does not know us: because it did not know him. 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3:3 And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure).
    3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. 3:5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 3:6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who prac-tices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness – the one who does not love his fellow Christian – is not of God.
    God Is Love, So We Must Love One Another
    3:11 For this is the gospel message that you have heard from the beginning: that we should love one another, 3:12 not like Cain who was of the evil one and brutally mur-dered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his deeds were evil, but his brother’s were righteous.

  4. 1st.john 3
    3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness – the one who does not love his fellow Christian – is not of God.
    God Is Love, So We Must Love One Another
    3:11 For this is the gospel message that you have heard from the beginning: that we should love one another, 3:12 not like Cain who was of the evil one and brutally mur-dered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his deeds were evil, but his brother’s were righteous.

    Romans
    1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse

    genesis
    “Surely you will not die, 3:5 for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like divine beings who know good and evil
    .”
    1st.john
    3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

    HEB.
    11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 11:2 For by it the people of old received God’s commendation.

    11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 11:2 For by it the people of old received God’s commendation. 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were set in order at God’s command, so that the visible has its origin in the invisible. 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith he still speaks, though he is dead. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God. 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, when he was warned about things not yet seen, with reverent regard constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family. Through faith he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith…

    …11:37 They were stoned, sawed apart, mur-dered with the sword; they went about in sheepskins and goatskins; they were destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 11:38 (the world was not worthy of them); they wandered in deserts and mountains and caves and openings in the earth. 11:39 And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

    JAY GOD’S STORY
    IT IS NOT ABOUT sin DEATH AND JUDGEMENT
    IT IS ABOUT FAITH HOPE AND LOVE…DOING GOD’S GOOD…NOT EVIL

    THE CHRIST came when all hope was gone gal. 4-4
    if you redefined sin as missing the mark of the righteous
    that might skew your perspective enough to understand free will…we always have THE choice of always doing good or evil.
    GOD IS ALWAYS GOOD FAITHFUL …NOT WANTING ANY TO LOOSE OUT ON THE REDEMPTION

    2:1 And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2:2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 2:3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind,
    and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

    2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, be-cause of his great love with which he loved us, 2:5 even though we were dead in trans-gressions, made us alive together with Christ

  5. rich constant says:

    Yes I think if you looked at sin as Missing the mark of righteousness set before a man then you would understand and be able to put together unrighteousness and the one who practices sin.
    and at that point you would understand or be able to maybe see put in perspective Sin is not imputed where there is no law but all men die but the righteous live through Jesus because of the love of God for his creation. and that keeps Hades in the ballpark.
    I wrote that little ditty above and 2008I still haven’t changed much I still like it
    on by the way I lost about 5 hours of work. so this isn’t as complete as I wanted it to be, but you know shit happens I was mad

  6. rich constant says:

    I forgot to answer that will Of god thing.
    The will of God would be to love and honor and give glory to God first.
    And love your brother as yourself.
    when you put that in perspective for Jesus that means fulfilling prophecy and saving the creation.
    and thus becoming the righteous Judge.
    and every man will be judged according to the deeds done in the body.
    that includes able that includes Enoch. New line
    and guess what he didn’t miss the mark of righteousness set before him. although he was cursed under the law by people who were using the lAw unrighteously.
    to redeem those that were cursed by the LAW.
    you know those under the law. through faithfulness, faithfulness to what the Word of God His prophets. Thus god is faithful to His covenant what were calling the first covenant. you know all those guys that got curse and that kingdom that God cursed because of disobedience.
    and God being no respecter of anyone’s person.
    Anyone that was cursed under the law and faithful to God was what. righteous
    by what righteous faith.
    I think it’s Romans 3:22
    But now but now but now the righteousness of God has been manifested through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for what on to what for what all those that believe for there is no distinction no difference everybody’s the same that believe anywho in God yep that would be in God and God and God and what do they get redemption life from the dead just like Jesus got like the Messiah did vindicated

  7. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Rich,

    Generally, “Hades” in the NT is used in the sense of the Hebrew word Sheol, the realm of the dead. It does not mean “gehenna” or hell. For example,

    (Act 2:26-27 NET) 26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced; my body also will live in hope, 27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.

    Here “Hades” means the realm of the dead or the grave.

    HADES, HELL. The Greek word Hades (ha̧dēs) is sometimes, but misleadingly, translated “hell” in English versions of the NT. It refers to the place of the dead but not necessarily to a place of torment for the wicked dead. In Greek religious thought Hades was the god of the underworld; but more commonly the term referred to his realm, the underworld, where the shades or the souls of the dead led a shadowy existence, hardly conscious and without memory of their former life. In early times it seems Hades was usually conceived as a place of sadness and gloom (but not punishment) indiscriminately for all the dead. However, as early as Homer the notion existed that some individuals experienced endless punishment in Hades, and later, especially through the influence of Orphic-Pythagorean ideas, belief in postmortem rewards and punishments in Hades became common. While Greek ideas about the afterlife probably did not influence the origins of Jewish expectations of retribution after death, later Jewish writers sometimes incorporated particular terms and concepts from the Greek and Roman Hades into their own pictures of the afterlife.
    The old Hebrew concept of the place of the dead, most often called Sheol (šĕʾôl) in the Hebrew Bible, corresponded quite closely to the Greek Hades. Both were versions of the common ancient view of the underworld. Like the old Greek Hades, Sheol in the Hebrew Bible is the common fate of all the dead, a place of darkness and gloom, where the shades lead an unenviable, fading existence. In the LXX therefore Sheol is usually translated as Hades, and the Greek term was naturally and commonly used by Jews writing in Greek. This Jewish usage explains the ten NT occurrences of the word Hades.
    The rise of Jewish belief in resurrection and eternal life had a significant impact on ideas about Sheol/Hades. Resurrection was understood as God’s eschatological act of bringing the dead from Hades back to life. Probably the earliest, simplest idea was that the shades will return from Hades to bodily life. Sometimes they were expected to be raised as spirits to dwell with the angels in heaven. According to a more dichotomous view of human nature, the soul will be brought from Hades, the body raised from the grave, and body and soul reunited in resurrection. Whichever view of resurrection was adopted, Hades became the temporary abode of the dead, between death and the general resurrection at the end of the age; but there was not necessarily any other change in the understanding of Hades.
    In most early Jewish literature Hades or Sheol remains the place to which all the dead go (2 Macc 6:23; 1 En. 102:5; 103:7; Sib. Or. 1:81–84; Ps.-Phoc.112–113; 2 Bar. 23:4; T. Ab. A 8:9; 19:7) and is very nearly synonymous with death (Wis 1:12–16; 16:13; S. Sol. 16:2; Rev 6:8; 20:13), as well as actually synonymous with other OT terms for the place of the dead (“the earth,” “the dust,” Abaddon: 1 En. 51:3; 4 Ezra 7:32; Ps.-Philo 3:10; 2 Bar. 42:8; 50:2). At the resurrection Hades will return what has been entrusted to it (1 En. 51:3; 4 Ezra 4:42; 7:32; 2 Bar. 42:8; 50:2; Ps.-Philo 3:10; 33:3; cf. Rev 20:13)—a notion which expresses God’s sovereignty over Hades (cf. 1 Sam 2:6; Tob 13:2; Wis 16:13). The dead have been temporarily entrusted by God to the safekeeping of Hades; at the resurrection he will demand them back. Thereafter death will no longer happen, and so the mouth of Hades will be sealed so that it can no longer receive the dead (2 Bar. 21:23; Ps.-Philo 33:3), or, in an alternative image, Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Thus Hades retains its close association with death and is not confused with the place of eternal torment for the wicked after the day of judgment, which was usually known as Gehenna. Even when Hades is portrayed as the fate for which the wicked are heading, in contrast to the eternal life to which the righteous are destined, the traditional characteristics of the place of the dead—darkness and destruction—are often in mind (Pss. Sol. 14:9–10; 15:10, 13; 16:2; Jub. 7:29; 22:22).

    Richard Bauckham, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, 1992, 3, 14.

  8. vindicated and using law

    1st tim
    , 1:4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. Such things promote useless speculations

    rather than God’s redemptive plan that operates by faith.
    1:5 But the aim of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.

    1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently.
    1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people,

    3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you 3:15 in case I am delayed, to let you know how people ought to conduct themselves in the household of God, because it is the church of the living God, the support and bulwark of the truth.

    3:16 And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation:
    He was revealed in the flesh,
    vindicated by the Spirit,
    seen by angels,
    proclaimed among Gentiles,
    believed on in the world,
    taken up in glory.

    heb

    2:9 but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of every-one
    . 2:10 For it was fitting for him, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bring-ing many sons to glory, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 2:11 For indeed he who makes holy and those being made holy all have the same origin, and so he is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 2:12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will praise you.” 2:13 Again he says, “I will be confident in him,” and again, “Here I am, with the chil-dren God has given me.”

    2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
    2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s de-scendants

    2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

  9. and Jay
    exactly what is this all about

    4:25 And Adam had marital relations with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son. She named him Seth, saying, “God has given me another child in place of Abel be-cause Cain killed him.” 4:26 And a son was also born to Seth, whom he named Enosh. At that time people began to worship the LORD.

  10. Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!” 22:33 When the crowds heard this, they were amazed at his teaching.

    The Transfiguration
    Matt 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them privately up a high mountain. 17:2 And he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 17:3 Then Moses and Elijah also appeared before them, talking with him. 17:4 So Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here.

    matt
    22:28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”
    22:29 Jesus answered them, “You are deceived, because you don’t know the scriptures or the power of God. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
    22:31 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!” 22:33 When the crowds heard this, they were amazed at his teaching.

    luke
    9:30 Then two men, Moses and Elijah, began talking with him. 9:31 They appeared in glorious splendor and spoke about his departure that he was about to carry out at Jerusalem.

    iuke
    11:11 What father among you, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? 11:12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 11:13 If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

    luke
    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    16:16 “The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been pro-claimed, and everyone is urged to enter it. 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a letter in the law to become void.

    JAY?
    He is not the God of the dead but of the living!”????????
    luke
    11:31 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon – and now, something greater than Solomon is here! 11:32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here!

  11. LAST ONE JAY

    The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all those that believe to the Jew first and also to the Greek. for the righteousness of God is revealed in the Gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written the righteous by faith will live.

    quite honestly to me this looks simply Romans 3 :1,2,3,4 God gives his oracles to Faithful men Faithful men write them down For faithful men.

  12. Larry Cheek says:

    Does a pagan and a Christian go to the same place of gloom after death, while awaiting resurrection?

  13. rich constant says:

    Larry the whole ball game changed after Christ was raised and the promIsed Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost. there ain’t no more gloom and doom for us.
    We’re told that we die In baptism we are in God’s presence in the new creation.
    For those that believe there is no more separation through death because of the promise being fulfilled the Scriptures being Fulfilled proving God’s righteousness and his righteous faithfulness. We are in the body oh Christ and we go where the head is.

  14. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Larry Cheek asked,

    Does a pagan and a Christian go to the same place of gloom after death, while awaiting resurrection?

    No. In fact, I’m persuaded that the most likely meaning of the relevant texts is that, at death, we pass directly to the resurrection. From the perspective of the newly dead, no time passes at all. To those left behind in the world of time and space, it’s as though the dead were sleeping — unconscious until the resurrection. But from the perspective of the dead, we pass into God’s realm, a realm without time (as mortals experience time), and so go straight to the resurrection and judgment. No holding tanks. No Tartarus and Paradise (the words refer to other things).

    After all, if someone went to the place where the damned are stored pending judgment, surely he would notice (a) the presence of Hitler and (b) the absence of air conditioning. Hence, God’s judgment would be no surprise. Just so, the person passing to “Paradise” would notice the presence of Paul and the martyr, not to mention the pleasant air temperature, and not be surprised at God’s judgment either.

    Indeed, judgment would have already happened, or else how would God’s assistants know which tank to put a given person in? And why bother with a holding tank at all? Why not just move to the end of the age, the resurrection, the return of Jesus, and judgment — instantly upon death?
    But there are wiser, smarter people than me who disagree.

  15. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Rich C wrote,

    “LAST ONE JAY”

    Right …

  16. rich constant says:

    Well yeah I’ve been at this thing since I was 23 I didn’t have the benefit of schooling I wasn’t qualified so everything that I had was just God’s Word and so everything is by context.
    First and foremost that’s the only thing that I believe spirit filled words blessings

  17. rich constant says:

    Also because of that I don’t know how to write well.
    Although from studying the way that I study from the perspective that I study and I gained access to the answers of my questions.
    I might not be able to write well as in a presentation but you give me a question and I’ll throw out an answer.
    and if I don’t know I’ll just say I don’t know ain’t nothing wrong with saying I don’t know.
    Its when you you don’t know and think that you do know that you’re going to get judged for teaching that which is why I buried myself in study for so long.

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