Gravity Waves

gravitational_waves

From XKCD.com

A reader asked me to comment on the profound theological significance of gravity waves. Seems like a good idea. So here goes …

Background

About 100 years ago, Einstein published his General Theory of Relativity (GTR), which has been confirmed by countless experiments. But not all of its predictions have been confirmed — most famously, until a few days ago, gravity waves.

The GTR postulates that gravity is the result of the warping of space-time (the universe imagined in four dimensions, three spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension — usually represented by x, y, z, and t). Our brains are hard-wired to think in three or fewer dimensions. We really can’t picture a four-dimensional object, although some mathematicians and physicists are better at it than most.

Therefore, the texts all explain this as though space-time were a flat surface (two spatial dimensions). Imagine a rubbery material (like the stuff balloons are made out of) stretched taut and flat (but really strong). This is space-time with the z-axis ignored.

Now put a billiard ball in the middle. The balloon material warps because of the mass of the ball. Einstein theorized that space-time warps around every object that has mass (pretty much everything but light and light-like stuff), giving it “gravity.”

Next, go back to our billiard ball. Imagine that a BB (as in a BB gun) rolls around the inside of the warp at high speed. If not too fast and not too slow, the BB would literally orbit the billiard ball. And this is why the moon orbits the earth and the earth orbits the sun. Both are following the warp in space-time generated by the heavier object. It feels like a force pulling us down but it’s really the curvature of space.

If this is true, then several amazingly cool other things must also be true.

  1. The sun is so heavy (lots of mass) that it warps space-time so much that light would be bent around the sun. In fact, the math shows that a star on the other side of the sun could literally be seen from earth because the star light would bend around the sun due to the warping of space-time. But only during an eclipse because the corona otherwise blocks the view. This is called gravitational lensing — and it was proved true shortly after Einstein published his paper.
  2. In fact, for a really heavy star, light from a star exactly opposite the earth could be seen on both sides of the star, as space-time would be warped enough to bend light 180 degrees in both directions. And this has been recently observed — many times.
  3. Simple physics (which I used to be able to do but have now forgotten) calculates the “escape velocity” of an object launched from a surface. The escape velocity is the speed necessary to overcome gravity and head off into outer space. And it’s not hard to figure how heavy an object would have to be for the escape velocity to exceed the speed of light (much heavier than the sun). And in such a case, light could not leave the surface
    — resulting in a black hole. In Newtonian physics, there are no black holes because light has no mass and so is not pulled back by gravity. But when space-time itself is warped back onto itself, even light is trapped — and so the existence of black holes is an important proof of GTR.

I could go on, and there’s much more — such as atomic bombs and such like. I mean, it’s more than a little relevant to modern life.

Ligo20160211_tn

According to the LIGO website,

Based on the observed signals, LIGO scientists estimate that the black holes for this event were about 29 and 36 times the mass of the sun, and the event took place 1.3 billion years ago. About 3 times the mass of the sun was converted into gravitational waves in a fraction of a second—with a peak power output about 50 times that of the whole visible universe. By looking at the time of arrival of the signals—the detector in Livingston recorded the event 7 milliseconds before the detector in Hanford—scientists can say that the source was located in the Southern Hemisphere.

So imagine two black holes with huge gravitational fields (very, very warped space-time) orbiting each other. It’d be like putting two bowling balls on our stretched out flat balloon surface rolling around. Imagine that the surface is miles and miles large. Imagine you put a stethoscope on the surface from many miles away. If the material is really taut, you could hear the balls rolling — especially if there’s nothing else on the surface quite that big.

Now imagine that the two bowling balls slow down and eventually collide with the force of 65 suns colliding in the space taken up by a single star.

That’s what the physicists “heard” with their gravitational wave listening machine.

Cool. And it’s not really surprising that Einstein thought that such a collision might send waves through the “fabric” of space-time. In fact, every movement by every object with mass sends waves through space — but most create a wave unimaginably small. In fact, the two black holes colliding created a warp that, by the time it hit the earth, was about one thousandth of the width of a proton — which is pretty dang small.

Significance

1. For about 100 years, physicists have tried to come up with a Grand Unified Theory (GUT) uniting Relativity with quantum mechanics. You see, quantum mechanics deals with sub-atomic particles that are really waves (sort of). The math that describes them is wave theory. And three of the four known forces of nature are fully described by quantum wave theory. The one exception has been (drum roll, please) gravity. Proof that gravity can be propagated by a wave is a major step toward the GUT — which will give us an even better understanding of the universe than GTR or quantum mechanics do separately. Hence, the experimentalists who heard the two black holes collide will surely receive a Nobel prize.

2. If Einstein was right, then time is part of the universe and does not exist outside the universe. Therefore, the Creator exists outside of time — as we experience it. He may have time of another kind, but it would not correlate to time as we experience it.

3. If that’s so, then the Creator would be able to know the future because he would be no more bound by time than by space.

4. If that’s so, then free will could exist in our space-time and the Creator could know the future even though the future is not necessarily caused by the past. There could be non-deterministic events (acts of free will) not governed by the laws of physics, and yet the future would still be fully knowable by the Creator (but not by us, absent a special revelation by the Creator). (Some people get this and some don’t. Both go to heaven.)

5. If 2 is true, then it also follows that, when someone dies, the Creator could move them (their memories and consciousness) directly to the end of the Age to participate in the general resurrection.

6. Indeed, if 2 is true, then a higher-dimensional being (such as the Creator) could appear to walk through walls by moving from point X to point Y through a dimension that cannot be perceived by 3-dimensional beings. In fact, if 2 is true, all sorts of miracles could be done by a being with an existence outside (higher dimensional than) the constraints of time and space.

And it gets better …

7. Today, we can use optical telescopes to see objects about 13.1 billion light years away. Using microwave radiation, we can get to around 13.76 billion light years away. And that means what we see happened 13.76 billion years ago. That gets us to about 380,000 years after the Big Bang or, as we prefer to say on the blog, the Creation.

For 380,000 years (or so), space was opaque. (The Hebrew would be תֹּ֫הוּ and בּהוּ, that is, without form and void.) Light could not escape the hot mess of sub-atomic particles that filled space (due to the universe being much, much smaller back then). Hence, we’ll never see (with light or microwaves) what was going on before then. (After being without form and void for 380,000 year, there was light, long before there were stars. The light and darkness had to be separated for there to be stars.)

Hence, microwave telescopes can see back to the moment light escaped from the primordial cauldron of subatomic heat — the microwave background radiation. That light fills the universe and was stretched as the universe expanded. It’s now stretched so much that the light has become microwave radiation — at exactly the frequency predicted by Einstein’s equations.

But gravity waves were unaffected by the opacity of the early universe. If we can make our gravity wave listening machines even more precise, we might hear the formation of the universe. We might hear the gravitational effects of … the voice of God.

Oh, and if quantum mechanics is true, there are understandings of the math that make matter and energy products of nothing but the laws of nature. It’s not the math that creates matter and energy. It describes what happens but doesn’t cause it. Rather, something — beyond our ability to perceive — must (to quote Hawking) put the fire in the equations. Something must actualize the math — something higher and better than math because only a computer literally bigger than the universe could run all the equations that make the universe run. So it has to be something other.

The Stoics in the First Century had a word for exactly this. They called it the Logos.

Profile photo of Jay Guin

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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31 Responses to Gravity Waves

  1. David Himes says:

    Don’t you just love science!

  2. Charles says:

    “Don’t you just love science!”

    Yep!! But sadly, many in our brotherhood do not.

  3. Eddie says:

    Excellent Jay. I wasn’t sure how you were going to find theological significance in the discovery of gravity waves, but you did and did it well.

    Nicely done!

  4. laymond says:

    “4. If that’s so, then free will could exist in our space-time and the Creator could know the future even though the future is not necessarily caused by the past. There could be non-deterministic events (acts of free will) not governed by the laws of physics, and yet the future would still be fully knowable by the Creator (but not by us, absent a special revelation by the Creator). (Some people get this and some don’t. Both go to heaven.)”

    And if Jesus were the creator, he would know all the creator is supposed to know. But in Matthew Jesus said he did not know all God knew. “only the Father knows”

  5. laymond says:

    PS “(Some people get this and some don’t.)”

  6. Alabama John says:

    All this science could be first grade info for God created beings from another place. Some we call angels.

    We will have to be careful of what comes to earth on a cloud by thinking it is Jesus. Many on our earth have thought new humans appearing to them were Gods.

    We don’t know or really understand how much higher God is than us and what all else is between God and us both physically and mentally.

    God didn’t just create us and retire.

  7. Long time reader first time responder! Love the site and the articles. But I am glad that the Logos got tied into this. I have a rather Nicean view of the Godhead and the Logos of God, so I find this to be very convincing. I don’t believe Science and Christianity have to be at odds; but it seems that the fundamentalist brethren among us rule the day. Or they just make the most noise about it.

  8. Johnny says:

    My head hurts after reading that

  9. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    Matthew 24:36 really isn’t that hard to reconcile, IMO. Jesus experienced a host of feelings and emotions in His incarnate form that he wouldn’t otherwise experience had He not limited His divinity (Phil 2:6-8).

    “Those who hold the classic orthodox doctrine of the Trinity may be concerned with Jesus’s claim in 24:36 that he does not know the time of his coming to earth. In ancient times this concern may have led to textual emendation (see the additional note on 24:36). This text (cf. Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7) stresses that the Father alone keeps the timing of Jesus’s coming in his own inscrutable counsel. In light of such trinitarian implications as the preexistence and deity of Jesus, this is not easily explained. It is clear, however, that the incarnation of Jesus entailed limitation of the use of his divine attributes (Phil. 2:6–8; Gundry 1994: 492). As a human being, Jesus became hungry, thirsty, and tired (cf. Matt. 4:2; 21:18; John 4:6; 19:28). He was empowered by the Spirit of God for his ministry and his miracles (Matt. 3:16; 4:1; 12:18, 28; cf. Luke 3:22; 4:1, 14, 18; Acts 10:38; John 1:32; 3:34). After the temptation he needed ministry from angels (Matt. 4:11; cf. Luke 22:43). His postresurrection exaltation included the restoration of his glorious preincarnate prerogatives (John 3:13; 17:1–5). Those who are concerned about Matt. 24:36 should focus on its implications for Jesus’s genuine humanity (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). (For a helpful study of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of Jesus, see Hawthorne 1991.)”
    David Turner, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: Matthew

    “What is so remarkable in the present verse is the statement that “neither the angels of heaven nor the Son [οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός]” know the time of the parousia. It is little wonder that many copyists (here, as in the Markan parallel) omitted this reference to the ignorance of the Son as seemingly incompatible with the Christology of the early church. The omniscience of the Son, however, is not a requirement of Matthew’s very high Christology, and the ignorance of the Son on a matter such as this is compatible with the development of a kenosis doctrine (i.e., an “emptying” of divine prerogatives) such as Paul (Phil 2:6–8) and his predecessors had already developed—and with which Matthew, with his embracing of the full humanity of Jesus, would no doubt have been quite comfortable. The time of the coming of the Son of Man is in the keeping of “the Father alone” (ὁ πατὴρ μόνος; cf. Acts 1:7; for OT background, see the LXX of Zech 14:7: “there will be one day, and that day is known to the Lord [γνωστὴ τῷ κυρίῳ]”; cf. 2 Apoc. Bar; 21:8).”
    Donald Hagner, WBC.

    “Jesus’ self-confessed ignorance on this point has generated not a little debate. In fact, it is part of the NT pattern of his humiliation and incarnation (e.g., 20:23; Lk 2:52; Ac 1:7; Php 2:7). John’s gospel, the one of the four gospels most clearly insisting on Jesus’ deity, also insists with equal vigor on Jesus’ dependence on and obedience to his Father—a dependence reaching even to his knowledge of the divine. How NT insistence on Jesus’ deity is to be combined with NT insistence on his ignorance and dependence is a matter of profound importance to the church; attempts to jettison one truth for the sake of preserving the other must be avoided. (For an attempt to work some of these things out, see Carson, Divine Sovereignty, 146–60.) ”
    Carson, EBC

    “That God should keep his angels in ignorance of so crucial an event is remarkable enough (see also 1 Peter 1:12 for divine secrets apparently hidden from angels), but “the Son” is uniquely close to his Father, as we have seen in 11:27, and the same title will appear in 28:19 as part of the trinitarian formula for the God to whom disciples’ allegiance is pledged. In view of that usage, and especially of the way it is developed in 11:27, it is clear that “the Son” (an abbreviation which appears only alongside “the Father”) is short for “the Son of God;” the fixed phrase “the Son of Man” is never so abbreviated.

    The structure of this saying places “the Son” on a level above the angels, second only to the Father. But this high christology (for which see further on 11:27) is combined with a frank admission of ignorance. This saying has accordingly been one of the main evidences used for a “kenotic” christology, which accepts the full divinity of the Son but argues that for the period of his incarnation certain divine attributes (in this case omniscience) were voluntarily put aside.”
    RT France, NICNT

    “24:36 This verse is one of the most astonishing and significant of all of Jesus’ sayings both for eschatology and for Christology. It climaxes the previous discussion and introduces the rest of Jesus’ discourse. All these questions about the time of Christ’s return are misguided because no one but the Father knows their answers anyway. “Day” and “hour” are regularly used throughout Scripture for “time” in general, not just twenty-four-hour or sixty-minute periods (in Matt cf. 7:22; 10:19; 24:42, 44, 50; 25:13; 26:45). “Day” especially reflects the Old Testament “Day of the Lord” (cf. esp. throughout Zephaniah) as a stock phrase for the end of the age (cf. Matthew’s “day of judgment” in 10:15; 11:22, 24; 12:36; and cf. also Rom 10:21; 1 Cor 4:5; 2 Cor 3:14; Eph 6:13). Verses 42–44 will use “day,” “time of night” (watch), and “hour” interchangeably. “Day” and “hour” appear in synonymous parallelism in v. 50. Hence, Christians who claim they can narrow down the time of Christ’s return to a generation or a year or even a few day’s period, while still not knowing the literal day or hour, remain singularly ill-informed.62 Recent pamphlets and popular paperbacks show the tenacity of such contrary views and the havoc they can wreak. We can no doubt expect a new collection of false prophecies littering our Christian bookstores as the intriguing year 2000 approaches.
    Verse 36 proves equally significant for Christology. Christ’s words disclose his voluntary limitation of the independent exercise of his divine attributes (cf. Phil 2:6–8). Jesus was obviously not bodily omnipresent while he walked on earth. Mark 6:5 describes some restrictions on his omnipotence. Here we have a limitation on his omniscience. Christians who balk at the implications of this verse reflect their own docetism (the early Christian heresy of not accepting the full humanity of Jesus) and lack a full appreciation for the extent of God’s condescension in the incarnation and in the various human limitations he took upon himself.63 The textual variant noted in the NIV margin probably reflects a similar docetism among some early copyists. But the external evidence is strong for the inclusion of this phrase (א, B, D, Θ, f13, old Italic, Syriac, and Coptic versions; and numerous Greek and Latin fathers), and it is far more textually secure in the parallel passage in Mark 13:32. ”
    Craig Blomberg, NAC

  10. Larry Cheek says:

    As I read Jay’s rendering of this subject, I noticed how interlocked all of the physical elements of this galaxy are with the earth, the Sun being in the center of it all, and I believe that I could see how that a failure of any portion of this the whole mass would self destruct. That reminded me of this message.
    2Pe 3:8-12 ESV But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (11) Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, (12) waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
    It appears that the whole of creation is a package deal, dependent upon each element.

    It also reminded me that throughout the complete revelation of scriptures the Bible portrays that God exists outside of time and space of this universe. Even more interesting is that Jesus claimed that his Kingdom is not of this World (universe). As we are added to his Church (Kingdom) are we not also a born again spirit which is out of this universe? If so then our spirits are in a place of complete safety such as the description in Revelation. Satan was cast to earth from the area where God and Angels exist, therefore he cannot touch us in the non physical area. His control is limited to those who have not been born again. Yes, he can still tempt us physically, but he cannot take control of us without our consent.

    I know that some here express that they believe that the earth is only going to undergo a cleansing of fire and will be restored. But, to that concept I must ask how did Peter understand anything about other elements in the universe? Explain how a human living on the earth with the limited knowledge his generation would have known about the universe could have even imagined such a story.

    Actually, the whole universe will be replaced, not just heaven and earth, a new earth and a new heaven is a complete universe.

  11. laymond says:

    Kevin said;
    “Those who hold the classic orthodox doctrine of the Trinity may be concerned with Jesus’s claim in 24:36 that he does not know the time of his coming to earth. In ancient times this concern may have led to textual emendation (see the additional note on 24:36). This text (cf. Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7) stresses that the Father alone keeps the timing of Jesus’s coming in his own inscrutable counsel. In light of such trinitarian implications as the preexistence and deity of Jesus, this is not easily explained.”

    The words spoken by Jesus continues to be a thorn in the side, or a bridge who’s span just cannot be explained by trinitarian doctrine.
    The bridge from Father to Son. I believe many times when Jesus refers to God as Father, he speaks of the event discribed in Mat 1:18
    Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
    This discribes “The Holy Spirit/God” as Jesus earthly father.
    Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    This compares Jesus’ earthly father to other fathers. The Spirit is Jesus’ earthly father no matter how we slice it, he just is. And we have written proof that Jesus was both conceived and born right here on earth. If this is not a fact it nullifies ever word written after that. At the baptism of Jesus, God said this is my son who I am proud of. This happened before Jesus had done anything such as preaching the gospel, or miracles performed. God was proud of Jesus because he was a good son.

    All of the following tells us Jesus is not God, but his Father is.
    Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    Jhn 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

  12. After I heard John Clayton once say something to the effect that the size of the Universe is finite, I asked him what was outside the Universe. His one word explanation floored me. He simply said, “God.” And didn’t Solomon, in his dedicatory prayer for the Temple, note that not even the heavens could contain Him?

  13. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    laymond,
    You are certainly on an island of solitude.

  14. laymond says:

    Kevin, I like peace and quite, especially when I am fishing, for fish or men.

  15. laymond says:

    Kevin, if I am on an island of solitude. I won’t be lonely .

    Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
    Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
    Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    If it is just Paul and I on that island, we will have great discussions, Who knows, maybe “that man” Jesus will stop by now and then. And liven up things.

  16. laymond says:

    God has given us all the right to believe whatever we will, but he does not give us that right to abuse and expect to enter the narrow gate of eternal life.

    Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
    Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
    Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    As Paul once said we can no longer worship a god in ignorance of that god. We need to know the god that we worship.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
    As we see both Paul, and Mark refer to God as a singular being, even referred to in the singular pronoun,he.

  17. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    “If it is just Paul and I on that island, we will have great discussions…”

    Think about that statement for a minute…

    What does it imply about your notions of Christology, soteriology, and eschatology? When one is firmly entrenched on a deserted island, perhaps one should first reflect on the thinking that placed them there…”Why am I the only one here?”

    Just a thought.

  18. laymond says:

    Jerry said; ” I asked him what was outside the Universe. His one word explanation floored me. He simply said, “God.”
    Jerry, according to the bible, I am led to believe you received an incomplete answer. In order for that answer to be complete, God, and the angels, and now Jesus Christ would have to exist in nothingness. And we know that God does not exist entirely outside the universe.
    As Solomon indicated, God goes where he wishes, God is not confined by the universe, that he created, even man would not create his own prison. Someone here said God didn’t create man, and retire we as human beings don’t have a clue what all God created outside the universe, but if the universe is to be destroyed and we are to have a home with God, it would be right to conclude there is something outside the universe, maybe God’s house with many rooms.

  19. laymond says:

    Kevin, said; “Just a thought.” But if you were really a thinker you would have seen where I quoted that Paul said the very same thing as myself. So I don’t have to worry about that island only having one occupant. Yes a true bible believer walks a lonely road in today’s world where people quote other men’s opinions as truth, there is only one truth that is the word of God, the word that his son
    (his earthly conceived and born son) Jesus preached for three years, and left others behind to finish the job. certain people believe Paul was God inspired, they just don’t believe what he said about Jesus. and evidently those who preach Jesus as God, and the creator of all things, do not believe Jesus now sits at the right hand of God waiting for God to fulfill his promise to him, to place all his enemies under his feet. and by the way Jesus waits for his orders to return with the angels to gather the fruit of his work. Jesus never claimed to be God, God never claimed Jesus was God, so what gives man the right to do so? Christianity went off the rails in the 4th century and modern men intend that it stay there. I don’t take sides in the argument that was decided then. My beliefs are shaped by the bible, not what men say, and certainly not by what men did not say. John never once said Jesus is God, not once.
    I will remain on that lonely road to Jerusalem , but I am not alone no matter what you think. I have a just judge, and it is not you.

  20. Alabama John says:

    Our planet is part of a particular galaxy and there are millions of galaxies in our Universe.
    There are uncountable Universes.
    God is over it all.
    This unimaginable greatness is beyond our human understanding.
    To think we are all there is and we in this body are the best God can do is foolish to me. Remember at one time God regretted He had made man.
    Now the spirit from God that was put by God inside us to live forever is another story.
    Think bigger!

  21. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    God the Son once asked rhetorically, “Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear?”
    Jesus and the NT writers affirm His divinity. The biblical proof has been detailed numerous time by several posters.

    Shame on me, I suppose, for allowing this hobby of yours to hijack yet another comment section. No one here buys into it, and I should have known better than to respond when you introduced it yet again. Moment of weakness, I guess. I apologize to all for granting the forum.

  22. laymond says:

    Kevin, if you show me the phrase you began your last comment with “God the Son ” written between the first and last pages of the bible, you just might have the basis of an argument. but as Jesus once said if you build on a shaky or shifting foundation what you have built is very apt to fall.
    That does not seem to me to be a bar set so high , as to be unreasonable . If you can’t reach this low bar, the phrase has to be the creation of man, not God. Therefore what you wrote is false.

  23. Dwight says:

    Kevin, we have all been pulled in by Laymond’s inability to see what is clearly announced and put forward that Jesus is God, that is the Son of God, and has a Godly nature. The angels weren’t called the Son of God at any time, neither was any man, except Jesus, “who thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. And yet Jesus was subservient to His Father in all things. There are no contradictions.

  24. laymond says:

    As for high jacking the post, I was only asking for clarification of the opposing things the author of the post has written. unless I am mighty mistaken Jay has written that Jesus was the creator of all things, then in this post he writes ” and yet the future would still be fully knowable by the Creator ”

    I was only pointing out the contradiction created by those two statements , since the bible tells us that Jesus does not fully know the future . Maybe I read and remember what Jay writes more closely than some others.

    When my soul’s salvation depends on what I believe and practice, I take what I read seriously and as the bible says, try to prove in by scripture.

  25. laymond says:

    Dwight, please explain the following, so Kevin and I can be as learned as you.

    Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
    Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years
    Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    Dwight, who do you see as “the sons of God” and how are their offspring described ?
    “and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”

  26. laymond says:

    The bible plainly describes Jesus as a man of renown, preeminence . Look it up.

  27. sid says:

    There is another word for this “other”… Tao.

  28. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Sid,

    The Wikipedia article on Tao has this:

    Noted Christian author C.S. Lewis used the word Tao to describe “the doctrine of objective value, the belief that certain attitudes are really true, and others really false, the kind of thing the Universe is and the kind of things we are.”[26] He asserted that every religion and philosophy contains foundations of universal ethics as an attempt to line up with the Tao—the way mankind was designed to be. In Lewis’ thinking, God created the Tao and fully displayed it through the person of Jesus Christ. Christianity, then, would be the path that lines human beings up with the Tao most effectively.

    Also the Greek word used in N.T. for the Way is ὁδός (hodos). Here the Way refers to the path of righteousness and salvation as revealed through Christ.

    In Chinese translations of the New Testament, λόγος (logos) is translated with the Chinese word dao [or tao] (道) (e.g. John 1:1), indicating that the translators considered the concept of Tao to be somewhat equivalent to logos in Greek philosophy.

    Interesting … but any truly universal thing, such as the fire that makes the equations real, would show up independently in multiple cultures. The difference is that, to a Christian, the Logos is personal — an aspect of the Messiah Jesus. To the Chinese, Tao is impersonal, just as the Logos was impersonal to the Stoics and Hawking sees no need for a personal god, considering the universe essentially self-sufficient. It just is.

    Had John written to the Chinese rather than the Greeks of Asia Minor, he surely would have called Jesus the Tao.

  29. laymond says:

    It seems to be all quiet (on the western front) as far as Kevin, and Dwight are concerned. amen .

  30. Sid says:

    Speaking of western fronts, how very western to want to name that which the Tao Te Ching says cannot be named. It is also very western to always want to “give an answer,” however there are times when the “gift” is not necessary or desired. I will say this one thing (not fully divested of my western cloak): to equate Jesus with the Tao is the epitome of square pegs and round holes.

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