All right, Nick. You mentioned over at http://oneinjesus.info that we are guilty of presenting the church as place to get rather than to give. And you asked how we might change that.

Here are a few ideas:

* Require new members/converts to sign a membership covenant, as Saddleback does.

* Tell the new member/convert that Christianity is all about service to others, self-sacrificial service where you wind up on the giving end more often than not.

* Ask the new member/convert to commit to a life of service in the Kingdom.

* Develop a congregational ethos of saying yes. “When we at XYZ church are asked to participate in something, we always say yes!”

* Service, therefore, takes priority over many of the things that take up the time and energies of the world. We schedule life around service, not the other way around. Where we work, what activities we participate in, what we sign our children up for … everything that seems normal and every day is sacrificed on the altar of taking up our cross for Jesus.

* We raise our children with a service mentality. In fact, we encourage our members to raise their children to be missionaries, ministers, church planters, or vocational ministers who work outside the church but dedicate time to world-changing programs.

* We expect to lose 20% or more of our congregation from the transition but believe that God will bless our work –

(Luke 6:38 ) “Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

We don’t preach, “Jesus is lord of the world, so get with the program.”

We preach, “Come to Jesus and he’ll forgive your sins and take you to heaven as long as you keep yourself pure.”

Swing by http://fumblingtowardseternity.wordpress.com and read Introduction and Interaction, please. I’m looking for ways to help reverse this trend.

And perhaps, even worse, too often our congregational leaders are afraid to hold up Jesus as the model for themselves, as well as the congregation.

Selfcenteredness is the enemy of Jesus’ disciples. And too many of us have the disease.

Assuming that he is performing what Pub 517 calls qualified services, then I’d think he’d be self-employed for SET purposes.

IRC section 3121(b)(8)(A) gives the rule. A duly ordained minister of a church in the exercise of his ministry is self-employed for SET purposes.

Section 107 excludes the housing allowance for a “minister of the gospel.”

IRS interpretations treat these as the same.

Therefore, if you take the position that the minister is acting as a minister of the gospel on behalf of the college, he’d seem to be self-employed for SET purposes.

I have trouble seeing how you can pay FICA and yet qualify for a housing allowance. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but in any facts I can think of, it seems to be an inconsistent position.

When counseling new preachers on electing out of social security, I thoroughly grill them on their reasons and inquire about non-church employment and how they view the concept of social security. If they readily accept the coverage from other employment, but want to elect out on their minsterial compensation, I generally will not assist them in making the election as I view them as simply “gaming the system.”

We aim too low.

Amen!!! Amen!!!! Amen!!!

Jesus said “Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Ok, someone will want to replace “perfect” with “mature” or “complete.” Go ahead — it doesn’t help. Is any of us as mature as our Heavenly Father? Is any of us as complete as our Heavenly Father? Of course not. The real problem is that we don’t even aim that high.

http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2008/07/of-dating-engagements-and-fulfilling.html

Swing by and read Bobby’s thoughts on different kinds of relationships. Yes, you have to have a relationship with Jesus BEFORE all of those things.

In fact, everyone on earth has a relationship with Jesus RIGHT NOW… the same relationship that a king has with rebellious subjects. In Braveheart, the High Inquisitor says that William Wallace is on trial for high treason. Wallace replies, “Never in my life did I swear loyalty to that man.”

To which the Inquisitor replies simply, “Nevertheless, he is your king.”

That is the nature of the relationship that everyone has with the Lord Jesus Christ. To change that relationship, one must defect from your former loyalties (repent), swear loyalty to him (confess), and begin serving him.

The church is the visible community of those who have sworn loyalty to King Jesus. Swearing loyalty to him (by confession and burial in water) is how you join that community. There is no two-step process.

“Entering into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ” and “having a committed relationship with the body” are different ways of viewing the same event.

in HIS love,
nick

I like your thoughts about why don’t we preach about the church being more like Jesus. I believe a lot of that lies in our failure to have community, many people don’t like half the people they go to church with, let alone love them. Around and round it goes…