A Better Way – The Acts of The Apostles
So in Conclusion…Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Clarifying My Position on CENI, From The Comments
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The Laws Behind The Curtain here is linked to Antithetical Thinking.
This comment will self-destruct in ten seconds.
Actually, it won't but you can get rid of it.
Nick,
Thanks. I fixed it.
If you haven't noticed,
I'm getting caught up on reading your blog, so I apologize for my volume of comments today.
Is all of "CENI" captured (minus blog comments, of ocurse) in one PDF, say, for printing purposes?
Thank you
Seeker,
Nothing quite as condensed as a single .pdf regarding CENI, but there is an index to a series on the subject.
http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t…
Also —
http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t…
And —
http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t…
Those three series cover the topic pretty thoroughly. You'll find a discussion of a better approach at —
http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/t…
May God bless your studies.
Thank you. (I expected to get an e-mail notice of your having replied, but that didn't happen. ??)
I have been enjoying the material here, and at wineskins.org
Have really been wrestling with the hermeneutics, how it affects leadership, leadership's plans & goals for maturing the flock, etc.
Have read Second Incarnation (Shelly, Harris), Cultural Church (F.L. Smith), Church That Flies (T Woodruff), How to Read Your Bible for All it's Worth (Fee, Stuart), chapter-level synopsis of Male Spiritual Leadership (F.L. Smith), New Wineskins Acapella or Accompaniment issue.
I am not in line with CENI (is ERNI an older term?), and that is a hard thing to work out in a conservative church, so as to not make waves, a la Romans 14. I really appreciate a place where the dialogue can be there to learn from, to contemplate, to study over/against Scripture, to read and re-read.
May God guide us
Seeker,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Regarding the role of women, you may want to check out the series or the ebook "Buried Talents" (both have the same name) — both posted here. With respect, I don't agree with F. Lagard Smith.
Rom 14 cautions us not to tempt others to sin against their conscience by following our example in exercising spiritual freedom. It doesn't tell us to not make waves.
Paul writes,
(2Ti 2:24-25 ESV) 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
There is no sin in sharing what you've learned about the Bible, even if controversial, so long as you remain in submission to the elders and speak gently and kindly.
Jay, I was sent this link today and do not understand why it hasn't been addressed by the progressives.
http://divinereflections.blogspot.com/2008/03/how…
1. Not acquainted with the blog so didn't know I was expected.
2. As we have hashed and rehashed when we talk about "authority" progressives and traditionalists aren't even speaking the same languages. Traditionalists see the Bible as a legal code from which we draw God's commands for life. Everyaction must have a corresponding command – either express or implied. The Progressives see the Bible as a living expression of the Holy Spirit with which we are expected to strive in grace. There are commands to be sure and they should be kept, but a confidence in the work of the Holy Spirit liberates the believer from slavery to a dead code. The traditionalist seeks authority for every breath or thought. I accept every breath and thought as a gift from the Spirit. A search for authority will always end in argument, division and judgment. Following the Spirit will always lead to the growth within the believer and within the Body of the fruits of the Spirit Scripture describes. Law will produce a graceless living death. The Spirit will produce gracefilled life.
Now come on and completely miss the point of what I am trying to say by asking me 20 "what ifs…" about God's commands.
Randy,
Al Maxey has been asking for many years for someone to give him a complete list of the CENI that must be followed. So far, no one has.
This is the most divisive points among the churches of Christ I have ever witnessed.
No one will sign a list as it may change tomorrow.
How many of us older folks have seen changes in teachings CENI that were a matter of Heaven or Hell a few years back that are ignored today.
Just so folks know, I agree mostly with the what the progressive teach. I do read behind many conservatives too, though. It would be good to see someone from the progressive side address this blog, in particularly, the post about authority as this is something I have pondered for quite some time. I believe Rick as posed a legitimate question on his blog and one that has seemingly gone unchecked.
Alabama John, I have conversed with Al via email several times and have read most of his writings. I am not saying I disagree, just saying that I would like to see the post from Rick Popejoy addressed. I think he raises a valid question.
Far as CENI being a perfect method of interpretation, I agree with your comment. I also believe it is flawed. However, do we not use CENI to some degree? I think that is where Rick is going with his post. I really would like to see someone discuss this on his blog so that I can look at points from both sides
Randy,
You are right, we do use CENI in some ways. its used not only in religion, but CENI is used and taught in the military and in like in general.
Where we go wrong is when CENI opens the door for so much individual rules not as such in the Bible to be required of Christians or you are going to hell. That open door of CENI, especially the NI part promotes the I am better than you and understand the Bible better than you attitude.
My main objection other than the puffing up of egos is the making God such an unloving being that is sending everyone to hell but you and me and sometimes I wonder about you.
Then we say albeit very seldom that God is a loving God.
The two positions being true doesn't wash.
Randy,
The post is from the blog of Rick Popejoy. Popejoy is one of the preachers who published the ad in the Daily Oklahoman damning Mark Henderson, the preacher for Quail Springs Church of Christ, when it added an instrumental service. http://oneinjesus.info/2008/02/quail-springs-mini….
The Alexa score shows his site as having an extremely low readership. It's hardly surprising that no one has responded. If he wants his questions noticed by those able to answer them, he should post them in the comments section of a progressive blog. I would welcome him to post his questions here.
Popejoy wrote,
Popejoy begins by assuming that the issue God wants us to worry with is authority, but as I've argued here many times, that is simply the wrong analysis. It's not about whether the actions we do in the assembly are authorized or not. Rather, I would kindly suggest that we should find our standards in the text of scripture and not from manmade principles, such as CENI or the Regulative Principle — an invention of John Calvin.
The Real Worship series will shed considerable light on the worship issue as we work through the scriptures, but for now the short answer is that the test Paul applies in 1 Cor 14 is whether the proposed practice edifies the church. We should apply the same test and not import our own test. I'll present some thoughts that deepen and explain what Paul would consider to be edifying as we go through that series.
You see, we progressives reject the authority argument, not because we doubt the scriptures, but because we take the scriptures very seriously indeed. It's simple: 1 Cor 14 is in the Bible and therefore must be adhered to. CENI is not, and therefore is not binding on anyone.