I’m beat. I just drove to Nashville and back today — nearly 4 hours each way — to meet with Todd Deaver, Phil Sanders, and Greg Tidwell to plan an online conversation about grace. It’ll take place at graceconversation.com starting in week or so.
Todd, of course, is the author of Facing Our Failure and has his own blog at Bridging the Grace Divide. Todd is a fellow progressive, although I wouldn’t want to label him as agreeing with me on all topics. He doesn’t — but he’s still young 😀 . Todd is the minister for the Oliver Springs Church of Christ.
Phil and Greg are regular columnists with the Gospel Advocate. It’s fair, I think, to refer to them as “conservatives.” They are not what some would call “ultra-conservatives.”
Phil operates the popular Philanswers blog and has recently joined In Search of the Lord’s Way, a ministry that produces a widely syndicated television broadcast. Before making this transition, Phil was the longtime minister for the Concord Road Church of Christ on the south side of Nashville.
Greg also writes regularly for Church of Christ-affiliated publications, including several articles posted online at the Forthright Magazine website. Greg has been the pulpit minster at the church of Christ which meets at Fishinger and Kenny Roads, Columbus, Ohio for 25 years. Their building is situated next to the Ohio State campus, and they operate a campus ministry there. (I’m a big fan of campus ministry.)
The conversation will begin with a statement of agreed principles. Phil and Greg will then take up the question of when does a Christian lose his soul — the apostasy question. Closely related, of course, is the question of fellowship.
The site will permit comments, and we will follow the same moderation policy as here — no moderation unless you unduly test our patience. We expect all commenters to follow the same rule as applies to the four of us —
(2 Tim 2:24-25) And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth … .
I’m hoping for lots of comments, and we may well not have the time to respond to all of them — or even most of them. We really need to focus on the main conversation. However, please don’t let that discourage you from commenting, as I’m sure all participants will feel as I do: I need all the help I can get. All thoughts will be most appreciated.
Now this likely means that my work on this blog will slow down. I keep saying that and it hasn’t happened yet. But I think this time it will. If I skip a few days, please don’t give up on me. I’ll be back.
PS — Please link to GraceConversation and help us get the Google page rank high. I think this conversation has the potential to do a lot of good — but only if a lot of people see it.
Jay,
Thanks for the announcement. I'll be sure and put a link up. Hopefully good comes from this.
Zach Cox
Todd Deaver, in his announcment of the same on his blog, makes reference to Gil Yoder's aborted attempt to review Todd's book.
Gil and I go back a ways!
Maybe Gil will make his way over to the new place and provide some input; though, from my recent experience with Gil and his OABS ( http://www.oabs.org ), I expect it more likely that he won't.
I have posted the Jay's a Todd's announcment of the new venture on a couple of YAHOO! discussion lists.
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
Thank you for the info, I look forward to their conversation. On a practical note, someone may want to encourage them to put up a "first post" that explains what they'll be doing. As it is, because there are not posts, WordPress's computer-generated message is:
"Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here."
I always enjoy such examples of unintentional irony, but considering this topic, I had to laugh through a little bit of pain. I trust these brothers will do a good job of dealing with these topics with grace, humility, and respect, though.
Jay, thank ya'll for doing this. I think this has the potential to do a lot of good. I look forward to the discussion.
Jay,
Please keep this blog going strong as I fear the other will be waste of time. With no disrespect due to the authors or moderators. Please forgive me if that sounds harsh but I have commented on Phil's blog before and I am wary that this new blog you speak of will not be productive. This blog however is very productive, fulfilling the stated mission of a deeper understanding. I believe the new blog will be like the recent lengthy unproductive exchange with Robert Prater. I don’t believe that they are interested in dialogue but in convincing others that they understanding is true. I would be very surprised if Phil or Greg would ever admit to something they have changed their mind on.
Alan,
I respect you. I believe the bible is truth. Have you wondered why you believe what you believe on a deeper level then simple bible banter? Every time a person picks up a bible and reads it there is human understanding involved. Whenever I bring this up I am immediately branded as saying that “we cannot know truth”. That is not what I and others are saying. What we are saying is the understanding is fallibly human. The idea that there is only one way to read and understand the Bible for truth to be known is a human idea which has led to circular thinking and unwillingness to continue to peel away pre-supposed ideas and sub conscious logic used in reading the bible. Truth CAN be known but the way we understand the truth will always be changing because we will always be learning better, more critical, consistent methods of reading and applying scripture. If we refuse to accept this reality then I fear that we have truly deluded ourselves.
Robert,
If you feel that have been demeaning please specifically state the words that you feel were insulting and I will make the just apology. Just challenging someone’s thinking or beliefs is not demeaning or insulting. In love I feel that you and others are unwilling to look at the methods that you use to determine truth from the Bible. I am not suggesting that truth doesn’t exist or that we cannot know truth. So please do not accuse me of that as others have. See my response to Alan on this thread for further explanation. When you use phrases such as "May God help you discover and come to knowledge of the truth and be secure in it." It does not seem to come across with humility. I stated that I empathized with you not that I pitied you. I believe you are sincere doing what you think God wants you to do. Nor did I suggest that you were not humble or self honest. I was answering your question of “if I ever tried to convince people of what I believe” and I stated that was my intention. I feel your comparison of me to a homosexual bishop is not apples to apples but rather an attempt to destroy character but I will ignore it and take that as a comparison of the thinking I am suggesting to thinking used by this homosexual bishop. Here is the difference the homosexual bishop and others use other writing besides the Bible for a basis for truth. The homosexual bishop is not talking about reexamining his method of reading and interpreting the bible he is making up his own truth that is why they have catechisms and books of common prayer that are treated as foundation for truth just like the bible. If we were to get to know one another and understand the context from which we come we might be able to have more of a dialogue.
Joe,
I apologize if my words have been harsh and unkind and have come across as being without love and humility and without a spirit of grace. I guess I get easily frustrated when more conservative minded brethren seem to be getting peg-holed.
I guess some of your comments that bothered me was the generalization of people of my like mind, when you categorized us as believing “We have come to worship doctrinal perfectionism. It is what we spent our time on, it was the thrust of our message to the other denominations, it is what we built our institutions (universities, Schools of preaching) around, and it is what we put our money into. It is why we have these long conversations that lead nowhere. The need to be right on everything every time and enforce that on others is a poison that plagues the cofC to this day.”
Or that “teaching that no error may be fellowshipped.”
I never once said any of those words. It seems like many progressive like to make the accusation that in the more conservative Churches of Christ we “didn’t hear much about grace.” I know I did. From my earliest days growing up at Tenth and Rockford Church of Christ in Tulsa, by brother Hershel Dyer, who was the epitome of a grace-filled and gracious man. To my days and studies at Harding University and the likes of professors such as Jimmy Allen, Neal Pryor, Howard Norton, Will Ed Warren, Bill Lambert, Don Shackelford, Tom Alexander, Duane Warden, etc. to my current studies in Oklahoma Christian’s master’s program – Stafford North, Harold Shank, Loren Gieger, John Harrison, Alan Martin. To my working with three congregations in Churches of Christ for over the past 10 years and my current fellowship and association with preachers and congregations who, yes, would be described as being more conservative, middle of the road (those beyond the For A Cappella ad that appeared in Christian Chronicle, October, 07, the North Macarthur congregation in OKC—host their second Affirming the Faith seminar with over 1200 in attendance, sponsored by over 20 congregations in the area), men like Phil Sanders, Tim Lewis, Robert Oglesby, Don Vinzant, Jeff Jenkins, Chuck Monan, George Bailey, Everett Ferguson, Neil Lightfoot, Jimmy Jividen, Ralph Gilmore, Charles Hodge, Cecil May, Jr. We and these men are not extremists and ultra radical conservatives.
Many of us greatly preach, write on, and promote the supreme value of the grace of Christ. Most of my sermons, bulletin articles, etc. concern the plan of salvation, forgiveness, grace, and how we can better reach and share with others this wonderful story of grace. Yet, we are also committed to the concept of being saved by “grace through faith.” But it is the conviction of many of us that we must remain under the protection of God's grace, just as we must "keep ourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21). As long as we have a genuine relationship with Christ and are on the pathway of light, grace continually covers us (1 John 1:9). But the problem becomes when men and women choose to venture away from Christ and His teachings and into the darkness, we do not have the promise of protection of God’s grace (1 John 1:6).
Again, we are saved by being "in Christ" and "in His grace" not by our own works or attempts at perfect law keeping or flawless theology. But we want to love God enough to simply do what He says to do. Hearing and obeying the commandments is how we love God (John 14:15). We are to learn righteousness and godliness from grace (Titus 2:11-14). We do not want to presume upon the grace of Christ by inventing my own doctrines and practices.
There is so much error being promoted and preached under the name of Christ today. We cannot afford to keep quiet. Error is soul-threatening. If the New Testament was not written to instruct people in how to live godly lives and how churches should believe and practice, then one must wonder why it was written at all. It is our prayer and hope that we'll be just simply Christians only (not the only Christians) and we'll be members of one undenomintional church we find and read about in the New Testament. It is our prayer that religious people outside the body of Christ can be loving and patiently taught and learn to see the difference between New Testament Christinaity and the substitute religionjs whcih have been made consciously or unconsciously by human traditins.
Yes, we do believe that Romans 14 is not a license for self-made religion (which Paul condemns in Colossians 2). It is not a license to divide the church with our own desires.
Many of us feel like we are trying to be “silenced” while people push their agenda to turn the church of our Lord into a bad substitute for a denomination. We will not be “hushed.” Nor do we want to see congregations go the direction and follow the leading of men like Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelly, Mark Henderson (Quail Springs, OKC) who seem to be embracing all kinds of error. (I recently a few months back saw Max Lucado and Jeff Walling on TBN religious broadcasting, just smiling [and trying to sell books], and seemingly giving full fellowship to that corrupt so called Christian ministry) We must be vigilant and watchful in these error filled times today.
Anyway, I'll stop here. I do personally look forward to Jay and Todd’s discussions with Phil and Greg on the subject of grace.
May God help us all to be seekers and finders of the Truth.
God bless
PS Stop by http://www.preacherprater.blogspot.com some time and say hello and add comments.
Joe,
I just have to ask you in response to your slanderous statement about me (Phil, and Greg) not interested in dialogue or ever having changed their mind on something: Do you not try to ever convince others that your understanding is true? God help us in the church when we have men and women who would teach without conviction!
Really, are statement is the typical postmodern mindset. We can know the truth. (Jn 8:31-32). The response that we can’t be perfect is also a postmodern objection. While none of us is so arrogant as to say that we have perfect knowledge or have ever changed our minds about something, that does not mean we cannot know with confidence what we know. Just becasue we don’t know everything, doesn’t mean we don’t know some things!
God help us get rid of this idea that we cannot know what is right and speak out against what is wrong. We are not Christian agnostics.
Joe,
I apogize if my words have been harsh and unkind and have come across as being without love and humility and without a spirit of grace. I guess I get easily frustrated when more conservative minded brethren seem to be getting peg-holed.
I guess some of your comments that bothered me was the generalization of people of my like mind, when you categorized us as believing “We have come to worship doctrinal perfectionism. It is what we spent our time on, it was the thrust of our message to the other denominations, it is what we built our institutions (universities, Schools of preaching) around, and it is what we put our money into. It is why we have these long conversations that lead nowhere. The need to be right on everything every time and enforce that on others is a poison that plagues the cofC to this day.”
Or that “teaching that no error may be fellowshipped.”
I never once said any of those words. It seems like many progressive like to make the accusation that in the more conservative Churches of Christ we “didn’t hear much about grace.” I know I did. From my earliest days growing up at Tenth and Rockford Church of Christ in Tulsa, by brother Hershel Dyer, who was the epitome of a grace-filled and gracious man. To my days and studies at Harding University and the likes of professors such as Jimmy Allen, Neal Pryor, Howard Norton, Will E. Warren, Bill Lambert, Don Shackelford, Tom Alexander, Duane Warden, etc. to my current studies in Oklahoma Christian’s master’s program – Stafford North, Harold Shank, Loren Gieger, Ph.D. John Harrison, Alan Martin. To my working with three congregations in Church of Christ for over the past 10 years and my current fellowship and association with preachers and congregations who, yes, would be described as being more conservative, middle of the road (those behind the For a Cappella ad in Christian Chronicle, Oct. 07, to the North Macarthur congregation in OKC—host second Affirming the Faith seminar with over 1200 in attendance, sponsored by over 20 area congregations), to men Phil Sanders, Tim Lewis, Robert Oglesby, Don Vinzant, Jeff Jenkins, Chuck Monan, George Bailey, Everett Ferguson, Neil Lightfoot, Jimmy Jividen, Ralph Gilmore, Charles Hodge, Cecil May, Jr. We are not extremists and ultra radical conservatives.
Many of us greatly preach, write on, and promote the supreme value of the grace of Christ. Most of my sermons, bulletin articles, etc. concern the plan of salvation, forgiveness, grace, and how we can better reach and share with others this wonderful story of grace. Yet, we are also committed to the concept of being saved by “grace through faith.” But it is the conviction of many of us that we must remain under the protection of God's grace, just as we must "keep ourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21). As long as we have a genuine relationship with Christ and are on the pathway of light, grace continually covers us (1 John 1:9). The problem is when we venture away from Christ and His teachings and into the darkness, we do not have the promise of protection of God’s grace (1 John 1:6).
Again, we are saved by being "in Christ" and "in His grace" not by our own works or attempts at perfect law keeping or flawless theology. We want to love God enough to simply do what He says to do. Hearing and obeying the commandments is how we love God (John 14:15). We are to learn righteousness and godliness from grace (Titus 2:11-14). We do not want to presume upon the grace of Christ by inventing my own doctrines and practices.
There is so much error being promoted and preached under the name of Christ today. We cannot afford to keep quiet. Error is soul-threatening. If the New Testament was not written to instruct people in how to live godly lives and how churches should believe and practice, then one must wonder why it was written at all.
It is our prayer to simply be Christians only (not the only Christians). To be members of the one body of Christ, the church that we read about in the New Testament. It is our prayer that religious people outside the Lord’s church will see the difference between New Testament Christianity and the substitute religions which have been made, consciously or unconsciously by human traditions.
And, yes, we do disagree on Romans 14-15. (See my posting and explanation to Jay concerning context) It is not a license for self-made religion (which Paul condemns in Colossians 2). It is not a license to divide the church with our own desires.
Many of us feel like we are trying to be “silenced” while people push their agenda to turn the church of our Lord into a bad substitute for a denomination. We will not be “hushed.” Nor do we want to see congregations go the direction and follow the leading of men like Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelly, Mark Henderson (Quail Springs, OKC–many of us in the area have seen firsthand the damage, division, an shame before the unbelieving communities eyes that Mark and these elders have caused the body of Christ in OKC area). Many seem to be embracing all kinds of error. (I recently a few months back saw Max Lucado and Jeff Walling on TBN religious broadcasting, just smiling [and trying to sell books], and seemingly giving full fellowship to that corrupt so called Christian ministry)
Over the many years as I've attended and seen the Tulsa Workshop (which begins tommorrow) and see and heard firsthand many of these things, it is scary. Last year, they had a speaker, Lee Keele. Good friend of mine. Used to preach at the Carbondale Church of Christ in Tulsa, He got "caught up" in these mindset, and evenually, with encouragement from some promonient leaders out there, left the Church of Christ and is preacher in Hutchison, Kansas at Crossroads Christian Church. I have also seen the division and disruption that many of these teachers out at the Workshop have created within the body of Christ. In the Tulsa area is the Jenks congregation, which began offering an instrumental music service a few years back (however, they are listed in the 21st Century Christian handbook directory). Great heartache has been caused through these men and congregations. I agree with Howard Norton when he says all this is "contributing to the spiritual division
of families that once were united. Parents could attend worship with their adult children, and those children could go to church with their parents; and all could worship with a clear conscience. Today, the addition of instrumental music threatens the unity that so
many families have loved and cherished through the years."
I recall last year a most troubling conversations with Mark Moore out at the Tulsa Workshop (he's Christian Church guy and professor of Bible at Ozart Bible College), he told me, even though most in CofC would consider him liberal, he had been surprised at some of the very progressive thinking and theology that some of the leaders of the Workshop have (he didn't name any names, but I could guess a few–Terry Rush, etc.) He told me how that in the Christian Church, just as it is in Churches of Christ, there are many change agents, those seeking to depart from the New Testament pattern in favor of a "Post-modern" model of faith and practice. He said it may even be more advanced in these very liberal Christian Churches. He noted the North American Christian Convention (NACC), now exists as an independent parachurch organization with paid year-round staff, The Christian Standard," and the financial wing is the Church Development Fund, Inc. He fears that conditions are very similar to where it was when the Disciples of Christ attempted to lead them into apostasy.
Anyway, I'll stop here. Error will be lovingly confronted with respect and humilty by many of us is what i'm saying.
Well, I do personally look forward to Jay and Todd’s discussions with Phil and Greg on the subject of grace.
May God help us all to be seekers and finders of the Truth.
God bless,
PS Stop by my blog sometime and visit and leave comments (www.preacherprater.blogspot.com)
Robert,
That was not slander. Slander is where you speak behind someone’s back in manner that is malicious. This forum is public. In the previous exchange you did not change your mind and I doubt anyone else did. So it was unproductive, this is not malice or slander but fact. In response to your question of “Do you not try to ever convince others that your understanding is true?” Yes, but I do it with humility and brutal self honesty realizing that I am human and my understanding is human. I also put my emotional need to be right and any pres-supposed ideas behind an effort of self honest cognitive thinking. Even the most militant Post Modernists have convictions. But the difference between them (Post Modernist) and modernist is they are willing to constantly challenge their presuppositions and underlying logic. I once thought and acted as you do. I know you think that you are doing what God wants you to do. My family has about 6+ generations in the churches of Christ, so I empathize. Then through a series of traumatic and serious events I realized that most of the theology I held was based on pre-supposed ideas, flawed and inconsistent hermeneutics and tradition. I realized that seeking the truth is not only about strong conviction but being willing to openly and honestly reexamine those convictions on an ongoing basis and what thinking they are based on. When our convictions are above question or further understanding we are no longer seeking the truth. When we can’t read the Bible critically or practice critical thinking in our approach we are no longer seeking the truth. The idea of “We may not know everything but we know a lot” is just a watered down way of saying we have all figured out. This why most of the people who use the above statement are unwilling to re-examine the underlying principles and logic that their convictions are based upon with brutal honesty. You constantly use the phrase “God help us” to attack the logic and theology of those with whom you disagree. If you were really interested in dialogue then you would not use this phrase; as it is a direct insult to those with whom you disagree but have valid reasons for what they believe.
Robert,
You are correct in that we CAN know the truth per Jesus in John’s gospel. The problem arises when some claim that their human interpretations are also THE truth, or worse to deny that the human interpretations are just that – interpretations. If we all kept Romans 14 and 15 in our hearts – accepting each other as Christ accepted us – most of our controversies would go away. Blessings
Joe, I posted to your postings because I’ve noticed in most of your responses you use of the most demeaning, degrading, belittling, etc. words to run down more conservative minded and thinking Christians and members of the Church of Christ. I see little of love, patience, tolerance, etc. in your attitude and words for people with similiar convictions like myself.
But as far as your respone, I see, you hold convictions with humility and brutal honesty, and I don’t!! lol!! Get real. The arrogance of progressive, postmodern thinking Christians, never ceases to amaze me! I don’t find anywhere in scripture the call to hold to truth of God/Christ but to do so with “open minds” (i.e., Jesus is Son of God, but he may not be…or baptism is for the forgiviness of sins, but it’s possible, it might not be……need I go??) My discussions and reading so many of the posts of people like yourself and others on liberal blogs, reminded me of a sermon I recently preached on Sunday night on Postmodernism. I used the recent example of openly homosexual Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, who took part in Presidential Ingrugration; He prayed, to the “god of our many understandings.” He later said it was a prayer that “that all people of faith can join me in. And let’s face it, each one of us has a different understanding of God. No one of us can fully understand God or else God wouldn’t be God.” Hummm, I seem to hear similiar arguments……….
Now, I’m not afraid of humble, sincere, genuine, open dialogue, discussion, reexamining of the subjects
And yes Joe, I know all about presuppositions and don’t deny their reality and existence and the need to combat them. But I’m not going to buy for one minute, that truth is not truth. Right is not right. Wrong is wrong. Error is error and that we can’t discover it, embrace it, and practice it and teach against those who do so otherwise. Truth is not negotiable. Truth is unchangeable; it is unalterable. The majority of people in our world believe that truth is something that is constructed by man; therefore is below man. Truth comes by God’s revelation through His inspired Word. Truth is above man; we are answerable to it.
Jesus said, “you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32). John later said, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13) Paul said, ‘there is one body, Spirit, hope, Lord, faith, baptism, God..” (Eph. 4:4-6). He told Timothy, “If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselvfes in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3;15) The proverb writer said, “Buy the truth and do not sell it.” It seems like to me so many today are willing to at least, put it on the market of ideas and adapt, change and have it conform to the culture of today.
I think about Paul’s words, “always learning, but never able to acknowledge the truth.” (2 Tim. 3:7)
May God help you discover and come to a knowledge of the truth and be secure in it.
Robert you said:
"There is so much error being promoted and preached under the name of Christ today. We cannot afford to keep quiet. Error is soul-threatening. If the New Testament was not written to instruct people in how to live godly lives and how churches should believe and practice, then one must wonder why it was written at all."
I think we are getting somewhere now. I believe that the whole bible not just the NT was written to reveal God in his nature and character. That is first and foremost why the bible was written. The work worship and organization of the church is secondary. I just don't think that the main thrust of the NT is what we have made it out to be. You can read the whole NT using CENI and never once touch the question of who God is and what he is like. May I suggest that a pre-supposed idea is that the NT was written mainly as a guide for the work worship and organization of the church?
If error is damning which I believe some is, then is all error damning?
Robert Prater,
Since you make reference to Mark Henderson, and are right next door, can you provide us with any of the details regarding his reported leaving of the Quail Springs church?
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
Jay,
Your new "graceconversation" site invited me to be the first to post a comment.
So, I did!
However, I got a prompt that said the message was awaiting moderation.
Jay, didn't you say there wasn't going to be any moderation?
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
Oops.
I found the setting causing that and fixed it. Thanks for the heads up. And you are indeed the first the comment.
Robert Baty,
Not much is none about Mark's sudden annoucement that he was leaving. The following below came from their email news called "Quail Mail", it stated:
"As many of you have already heard, Mark Henderson resigned his position as Senior Minister last evening (Wednesday, March 11, 2009). The Elders will be available to answer questions regarding Mark's resignation and the search for a new Senior Minister tonight (Thursday) and tomorrow night (Friday) at the church building from 7:00pm to 8:30pm. A formal announcement will be made Sunday morning during both services and Elders will be going to each Adult Bible class to again answer questions. Please come with a prayerful attitude as the Elders have been in a long season of prayer, fasting and healing as they continue the work at Quail Springs Church of Christ.
Mark resigned his position Wednesday night to all eleven Elders who were in town at the time. The elders accepted his resignation. Mark is an honorable man and was not fired. The Elders have offered a substantial severance package so that he can continue providing for his family. This will include medical coverage as well as salary for a period of time. We believe God has great kingdom work for Mark and Quail ahead and wish him the best in his new endeavors."
___
A few of the preachers I talked with at a recent OC luncheon didn't know much about the "why" he was leaving. Only some speculations which really aren't appropriate to discuss here.
It's a sad situation over there. Afte the 300 plus left last year, they were able to increase back in attendance, but that has slowly started to dwindle recently. Anyway, the man who was the "public face" and representative for Quail's instrumental push has now left town (with what seems to be a nice buyout) a little over a year later with little or no explanation. I do suspect that the elders just feel like they need a "new change" iand fresh start in the pulpit . But that's only a guess. The elders at Quail are still committed to instrumental music and that services continues. Many fear that in a short time Quail will simply become just another "community" type church with little ties or resemblance (as they now are) to Churches of Christ.
Prayers, tears and loving words of admonition and encouragement for them to come back to the truth and found unity in it are still being offered by many in the area.
To the two Roberts: May it never be said of you that you were afraid to publicly name names and kick fannies.
Keith,
I don't think the "kicking" part is applicable, but that other part seems to have some application and comes from some experience and frustration with preachers and the like who like to tell tales and leave you wondering what is up and with whom.
I think Jay recently, legitimately, criticised the practice of NOT "naming names" when addressing important issues of public interest.
IMHO, we shouldn't be having to wonder what is up with Mark Henderson!
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
I apologize. I should have said, "To the two Roberts: May it never be said of you that you were afraid to publicly name names and kick fannies. In Christian love, of course."
Robert,
My point was that you should be willing to give the support for what you say. Cite your authorities.
That has nothing to do with prying into the reason a man resigns as a preacher. I'm an elder, and I've seen many a minister resign for many different reasons. When the congregation or those outside pry into the reason a man resigns, they invariably only do harm to the man and his family. It is not an act of love. Therefore, it's impermissible.
I will strike any inquiry into the subject that is not authorized by Mark or his elders. It is simply none of our business.
Jay,
I'm NOT for "prying"!
I guess we'll just have to disagree, at least somewhat, on the relevance and propriety of such information in such cases as this.
I will endeavor to respect your opinions and desires as to this forum.
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
Joe;
To the best of my knowledge you and I have never enjoyed a conversation on any topic at all.
How strange that you would feel compelled to speculate in a public forum as to my willingness to admit to changing my mind on anything. I thought conservatives were suppose to be the judgmental ones.
For your information, not only is my mind changeable, one of my more noted changes has been documented by Ed Harrell in his History of the Churches of Christ in the 20th Century.
I wish you the best always (although I am open to changing my mind about that)
–Greg
Greg,
You are right we have never had an exchange. I apologize. If you read the other comments here I think I may have stated my feeling better. I have tried to comment on Phil's blog before and others like him such as Steve Higinbotham but most of my comments were moderated or deleted because they did not agree with the authors. Keith and other commentors here share the same experince. I was trying tell Jay if the new blog was going to be like that I didn't see the point in it. Does that make better sense?
Greg,
I look forward to your contribution to the "conversation".
Considering the topics of change, history and Ed Harrell such as you reference in your post, you might be interested in the testimony of Ed Harrell as was posted to the Housing Allowance article to be presently found on the second page of this blog.
Sincerely,
Robert Baty
Greg:
I've got my copy of Bro. Harrell's book in front of me; what change of yours would that be, and where would I find it in his book?
– Bob Brandon
At the rate this exchange is going, the Grace Conversion should prove to be stimulating, at the very least.
Tidwell has posted his first entry to get the conversation started on the new blog.
Sincerely,
Robert Baty