We are considering a post by Al Maxey and another post by Leroy Garrett arguing that, for those who’ve never heard the gospel, their salvation will be determined based on their response to what they know of God from other sources.
Leroy argues from —
(John 15:22) If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
Jesus also said,
(John 15:24) If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
This brings us to a critical point in understanding God’s relationship with Israel, and is entirely consistent with the earlier series on Rom 9 – 11, “Election.” As Paul wrote in Romans —
(Rom 3:25) God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished–
(Rom 9:22) What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
Both passages have primary reference to the Jews. God was not pleased with the Jews, but because of their election, he’d been patient with them. He even sent Jesus to them to perform miracles and preach the good news of the Kingdom. They rejected Jesus, and so God’s patience with them expired.
Yes, it’s true that greater knowledge of God’s will causes greater transgression, but this is the reason for grace through faith in Jesus. Jesus came to the Jews, who rejected him and thus rejected the Father, and so God rejected them.
(Rom 11:20) Granted. But they [the Jews] were broken off because of unbelief, and you [Gentiles] stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
Of course, the Jews were guilty of sin, as Jesus said, but their greatest sin was unbelief. The reason they stood guilty of unbelief was because Jesus had come to them and they rejected him — which brought an end to the time of God’s patience.
Jesus wasn’t saying that the Jews were sinless. No one is sinless. He was saying that the Jews were not charged with their sins, out of God’s astonishing grace, until they rejected Jesus. This left them “with no excuse”(15:22), which is exactly in line with Paul’s teaching in Romans 1 – 2.
Finally, Leroy argues from a series of passages that teach Jesus died for everyone. He concludes that all will be saved other than those who reject God. But what does it mean to reject God?
As we covered in the previous post, Paul states plainly in Rom 3:23 that all fall short of God’s glory because all have sinned — and sinned against that portion of God’s law for which they are accountable. This is why Paul spent so much time in chapters 1 and 2 explaining how everyone is guilty of sin sufficient to damn and so need a Savior.
And no other interpretation would fit the rest of Romans. For example,
(Rom 11:19-21) You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Paul’s argument is that the Jews rejected Jesus through their unbelief, and therefore they were “broken off” God’s olive tree. The Gentiles then believed in Jesus, and so they were grafted in. But if some Gentiles were already saved by having met the “available light” standard, they would have already been grafted in. Paul says the Gentiles weren’t grafted in until after Jesus was rejected by the Jews.
(Rom 11:30-31) Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
Before being grafted in, the Gentiles were “disobedient” — meaning that they knew some of God’s law and they disobeyed it. And this is the reason they weren’t yet grafted in.
Just so, Paul says,
(Rom 5:10) For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Before receiving grace, the Gentiles were God’s “enemies”! The same word is found in —
(Rom 11:28-29) As far as the gospel is concerned, they [the Jews] are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
The Jews, having rejected Jesus, became enemies of God — but enemies to whom the gospel remains extended.
Here’s the point: we are an enemy of God if we, like the Jews in the First Century, reject Jesus. But 5:10 says we are also enemies before being saved through the death of Jesus — by faith.
In short, yes, we are accountable only for so much of God’s will as we know. But that’s enough to damn us all. Nonetheless, I think God is merciful to those who’ve never heard the gospel — just not through the doctrine of available light.
Wow, this should stir up most of the Churches!
I believe most folks have always believed this in their hearts even while being members of the Church of Christ and hearing otherwise in sermons and sadly, even at the funerals of loved ones that were not members of the Church of Christ. Used to come up every year when flowers were put on graves of ancestors who were denominational and Cherokee believers.
Can't understand why some jaws weren't rung on some preachers at those funerals!!!
I am disappointed the author of the above opinions said that, "even tho its not sin" of the adding instrumentals to the service…..I believe it very well COULD BE sin. the bible says what it says.WHO are we to decide God didnt mean it. The OT is full of examples of those who did not listen to Gods directions and immediately perished. Even in Amos5:23, God said music is a terrible noise to Him. God is still the Great and Mighty Powerful and He is no less today. He just gives us more chances to figure it out. To me, its not worth taking the chance that it might be ok to add music. I'd rather just not take the chance and not add music, because its a noise to Him and He says in the NT, make the melody in your heart, (not on your harp.)
Thanks.
L. Stone
There is a line that separates those who are lost from those who are saved. Is the line based on how well I have kept the laws I know about? If it is, then doesn't that mean I am saved by the works I know to keep? My available light could not include God's grace and mercy because these things are foolish to the mortal man. The line that adds us to the saved is God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And from whence does this ability to believe come? – the foolishness of preaching , maybe?
It is a difficult thing to believe that God would condemn a kind, loving man or woman simply because they have not heard the gospel. However, it is easier for me to believe that God in His mercy and grace will make a way for every single soul who will accept the gospel to have an opportunity to believe and accept the Lord. How will he accomplish this? Through the the preaching of the word- as it is written- How beautiful are the feet of them that bring the gospel-. But one may ask; when, how , who , how soon, what about this one or that one? I don't know. I trust that God is good, kind, and merciful and that God will save all such as should be saved through faith in His Son.
Jay, I have heard every argument against IM now.
L.Stone said "Amos5:23, God said music is a terrible noise to Him."
I can't remember when I have heard a scripture so misrepresented.
Amos:5:23: Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Who is spoken to here?
Amos:5:1: Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel.
2: The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.
What this scripture says is, it will do you no good to worship me with song, you are singing to a deaf ear, or an ear closed to you.
If anything this says God did desire songs and music of worship from the faithful, just not these disobedient people.
L. Stone,
I hope you are keeping all 613 mitzvahs of the OT such as Deut 22:8 KJV "When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence." I really hope you remembered to build a battlement.
It's not about more chances to figure things out. COnsider this:
2 Corinthians 3 NIV
"13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
Be joyous that he says "ever-increasing glory", don't veil your face from the glory of the spirit, but have freedom. This I pray of you. Remember that this comes just after Paul says "6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
Are the songs you sing true to you? However you may try to put on a good act for God, yourself, or the church, God sees you – everything about you. If we are not truly loving God when we bring sacrifices to Him they are nothing more than empty rituals. If someone thinks I have to go to church or I have to sing songs or I have to go early or stay over after church to serve, or I have to – fill in the blank, are they truly loving God? God doesn’t want idle worship that is empty. We can look like we are being good Christians building up our own pride, but that is not what God wants. Loving God should be our motive, not pride.
i still think this discussion of the fate of the 'ignorant' is underpinned by assumptions such as: lost people are *unfortunate* victims of *happenstance.* "It's just not fair for God to send some people to hell when they never got a chance to hear the gospel first."
No one is lost or going to hell as a result of poor fortune or happenstance. Strictly speaking, there are no such things. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father. The 'ignorant' are not losers in some sort of circumstance-lottery. They are people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, who have no excuse.
God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If God in His infinite wisdom perceived that some person in the deepest pits of the African Congo would, in fact, accept Christ were he to hear the gospel, then doesn't God have the power to ensure that such a person will hear the gospel?
It seems like the underlying assumption is a dichotomy between (a) either God's arms are too short to save some people because God can't always reach across the chasm of 'unfortunate circumstance' to reach them, or (b) God's a mean jerk for condemning anyone who couldn't help but be condemned since they were never personally offered a way out of condemnation. But both (a) and (b) are false. No one is going to hell who doesn't deserve to be there–and that would still be true even if every single 'ignorant' individual will be lost for eternity.
I totally agree Anon. So whether we are a capella or instrumental it really shouldn't matter, because it's not about us, it's about God–or I should say us loving God. Once we even start to think about the difference between instrumental or a capella then that can very well seperate us from loving God to our fullest. So isn't it time to stop making it an issue so we can all get back to loving God?
Guy,
So very well put in your last paragraph there. I like the way you think–a background in Philosophy too perhaps? =)
I am disappointed the author of the above opinions said that, “even tho its not sin” of the adding instrumentals to the service…..I believe it very well COULD BE sin. the bible says what it says.WHO are we to decide God didnt mean it. The OT is full of examples of those who did not listen to Gods directions and immediately perished. Even in Amos5:23, God said music is a terrible noise to Him. God is still the Great and Mighty Powerful and He is no less today. He just gives us more chances to figure it out. To me, its not worth taking the chance that it might be ok to add music. I’d rather just not take the chance and not add music, because its a noise to Him and He says in the NT, make the melody in your heart, (not on your harp.)
Thanks.
L. Stone
Zach,
Thanks. i'm a grad student in the ph.d. program in philosophy at the university of oklahoma.
–Guy
Jay, I am not at all sure that I can agree with the Rm 11:19 conclusions. Only when branches are brokened off, can new be grafted in. There is also a concept of singular election at a time, Jews had theirs, now us.
It seems while Abraham was being elected, others like Balaam and Melciziedek were not of the tribe, but received direct revelation. It's entirely possible Gentiles all over were faithful to God, just as the pre-Moses era. Perhaps they were already in, so no grafting needed. Rm 11:19 is still true record of the current activity: that Jews were being tossed out and others were coming, but not a full description of the vine.
The major problem with available light is the shadows of revelation on the other workings of God that we have. "I have other sheep…" but no lineage or details are given.
Mr. Stone,
Read Revelation lately? It looks as if a cappella only folks are going to be disappointed in heaven.
Royce