The Age of Accountability: Conditional Immortality: Responding to Objections

Alexander has posted several objections to my understanding of conditional immortality. As always, Alexander’s concerns are thought provoking and weighty. I’ll work through them one at a time.

Are the lost resurreccted bodily as well? I see no reason why not:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
Is there any “physical” difference between the two resurrections? No. Both groups rise from their graves => the resurrection is a bodily resurrection both for the saved and the lost.

Indeed, the damned are resurrected — but not to immortality. Rather, they die the second death following judgment. They willl typically die very painfully — but their punishment will be proportional to their wickedness. I’ll cover the proportionality question in a future post. The gist of it is that the damned will be destroyed and die, but most will die painfully and yet justly. God will be who he is, and he is a just God.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:

The beast and the false prophet are two humans. They did not die in the battle, but were taken alive and thrown in to the lake of fire. A thousand years later (I am a convinced historical-premillenialist) the second resurrection takes place:

I doubt that the beast and the false prophet are humans.

(Rev 13:1-4 ESV) And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.  2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.  3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.  4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

(Rev 16:13 ESV)  13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

I don’t want to get into trying interpret all of Revelation here. I’ve addressed this argument at this earlier post. The people who oppose Jesus are said to die. The powers that stand against the Lamb — demonic powers — suffer an everlasting punishment.

(Rev 20:9-15 ESV)  9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,  10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.  12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.  13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In v. 10 John says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented forever. But humans are judged in v. 13 (in marked contrast to v. 10), and damned humans are thrown into the lake of fire — but it says nothing here about the duration of their punishment, only that they suffer God’s wrath. Indeed, these people weren’t named in the “book of life,” and so they have no life, only the second death — a painful death in a lake of fire.

(Rev 21:8 ESV) 8 “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

The traditional view is that the damned don’t die but are tormented while alive and conscious forever. Rev. 21:8 says that the wicked suffer death.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.

It may be a little disturbing to hear Christ speak of tormentors when speaking about hell; and I am convinced He chose this imagery for a reason. Considering how enormously huge the servant’s debts were it sums up to eternal punishment.

It’s a stretch to insist that “till he should pay all that was due” necessarily means forever. It sounds more like he’ll be punished according to the amount owed.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

This is one of quite a number of verses where the Lord speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why not of destruction if that’s what hell is really all about? It is interesting also, that he uses substantives to describe this and not verbs – saying: This place is characterized by weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it is not about a short time of weeping while being sentenced to destruction, but about being sentenced to a place of weeping.

The punishment of the damned will be painful — and verses such as this mean what they say. The question is whether the punishment never ends, and nothing here suggests everlasting torture.

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;
Mar 9:48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

This is reference to the last verses of Isaiah:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The fire will burn forever.
The worms will always have plenty to eat.
The bodies burn continually without being consumed
And they are dead

Yet it is a place of weeping
a place of torment
a place of gnashing teeth
a place of knowing that you are lost

I agree that Jesus is specifically referring to Isaiah 66. Let’s take in a little more context —

(Isa 66:22-24 NIV) 22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

First, God says he we create a new heavens and new earth — referring back to Isaiah 65:17. Then he says that the kingdom will encompass all nations – as promised to Abraham. But those who rebel will die and become “dead bodies.” The Hebrew is the word for “corpse.” The rebels will die and become corpses!

And yet their “worm will not die nor will their fire be quenched” with the result that they’ll be “loathsome.” Now, it doesn’t say that the rebels won’t die. It plainly says that they do die. Rather, it’s the worm and fire that consumes them that lasts forever — because this is what makes them loathsome.

A good comparison of the prophetic language is —

(Isa 34:9-10 ESV)  9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch.  10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

Here Isaiah is speaking of the destruction of the nation of Edom, declaring that its “burning pitch” and “sulfur” “shall not be quenched … forever.” But this doesn’t mean that the Edomites suffer everlasting torture. Rather, he’s saying that the memory of Edom’s destruction shall last forever. It is not, in fact, still on fire, but the memory remains with us even today.

As John Oswalt writes in the New International Commentary,

In v. 10, the primary emphasis is upon the perpetuity of the destruction. Each line begins with a stronger phrase denoting endlessness. Calvin notes aptly that the intensity of the language is used to produce an impression upon human hearts which are so hardened that plain language leaves them unmoved.

You see, everlasting destruction does not mean that the destroying process goes on forever. It means the effects last forever — Edom is destroyed never to be great kingdom again. The fire of its destruction “shall not be quenched” — but the literal fire went out thousands of years ago. But the destruction remains and will never be undone. Edom will not arise to live again.

And also compare —

(Isa 51:6-8 ESV)  6 “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth beneath; for the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner; but my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be dismayed.  7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear not the reproach of man, nor be dismayed at their revilings.  8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment, and the worm will eat them like wool; but my righteousness will be forever, and my salvation to all generations.”

The contrast God makes is between his righteousness and salvation, which last forever, and the fate of his opponents. Those who oppose God will be eaten by “the worm” — meaning they will not last but will “die in like manner” just as a garment wears out.

When Jesus spoke, he expected to be understood in light of the prophecies to which he alluded. The destruction of the damned will be permanent and irrevocable. They will not come back to life. There will be no hope of restoration. And the fire and the worm will last because they will demonstrate to the heavenly host the shame that comes to those who rebel against God. “Their worm” is not their souls! “Their worm” is the worm that eats a corpse, as in Isaiah 66 — meaning they will always be rotting corpses.

Just so, “the fire” is the fire of gehenna — the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. Their corpses will never escape gehenna — the wrath of God — because God’s wrath will not end. The second death will be a permanent death.

I must add that Isaiah 66 is one of the key passages that persuaded me that Edward Fudge is right. Jesus specifically refers to a passage about the end times — where the righteous live in the new heavens and new earth — exactly as described in the Revelation — and where the damned are “corpses.”

Now, again, the destruction of the damned will generally be extremely painful — agonizing. I’ll consider the nature of their pain in a future post, but the words of Jesus regarding how terrible damnation is should be taken quite literally. It is possible, you know, for punishment to be horrific and yet finite. Infinite, conscious torture isn’t essential to damnation being truly terrible.