The Holy Spirit: Questions by Hank, Part 2

Hank asked,

But, according to your view, how could people in Isa and Acts 7 actually resist the HS when they didn’t even have him to begin with? And, assuming they were actually able to obey him rather than resist…how could they even want to if such requires the HS being personally in them first?

Hank,

Obviously, the Spirit can seek to change or persuade men by multiple means. If the question is: How can someone resist deity, such as the Spirit? The answer is that people do it every day — and those are examples. If the question is how can we resist the Spirit while he indwells us, the answer continues to be found in such passages as —

(Eph 4:30 ESV) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

(1Th 5:19 ESV) 19 Do not quench the Spirit.

— which are directed to Christians, in whom the Spirit dwells.

1. Throughout the OT God spoke of himself and described himself as “dwelling” in/at/between certain places that we understand as figurative as opposed to the idea that God was literally and personally taking up residence in said places. Even though he plainly said that he was (or would be) “dwelling” there. One example: 1 Sam. 4:4 — So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth #3427 [between] the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, there with the ark of the covenant of God. I don’t believe that God was himself personally sitting down, enthroned upon, and living on the top of that ark up until it was stolen (we know that when the Philistines captured the ark, that it was not necessary for God to personally get up and leave). Scores of similar examples could be given.

As I’ve shown in Part 1, God can have a special presence in one place and yet still be omnipresent. That’s what the Bible teaches. You seem to insist that he is either in just one place or every place, that he can’t be both. But he quite plainly can be.

When God took human form and walked with Abraham, he was still omnipresent and still in heaven, too. And he literally walked with Abraham. These are not contradictory claims because God is not a finite being.

(Gen 18:1 NAS) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

(Gen 18:13-14 NAS) 13 And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14 “Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

Now, regarding 1 Sam 4:4 —

(1Sa 4:4 ESV) 4 So the people sent to Shiloh and brought from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

You seem to forget this language comes straight from the Torah —

(Exo 25:22 ESV) 22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

(Exo 29:42-46 ESV) 42 It shall be a regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet with you, to speak to you there. 43 There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory. 44 I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. Aaron also and his sons I will consecrate to serve me as priests. 45 I will dwell among the people of Israel and will be their God. 46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

(Exo 30:6 ESV) 6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where I will meet with you.

(Exo 40:33-38 ESV) 33 And he erected the court around the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the screen of the gate of the court. So Moses finished the work. 34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 36 Throughout all their journeys, whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the people of Israel would set out. 37 But if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not set out till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the LORD was on the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel throughout all their journeys.

(Lev 9:23-24 ESV) 23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting, and when they came out they blessed the people, and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. 24 And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the pieces of fat on the altar, and when all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces.

(Lev 16:12-13 ESV) 12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil 13 and put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die.

(Num 7:89 ESV) 89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.

(Num 16:42-45 ESV) 42 And when the congregation had assembled against Moses and against Aaron, they turned toward the tent of meeting. And behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 And Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from the midst of this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces.

(Num 20:6-8 ESV) 6 Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them, 7 and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.”

As shown in these (and other) verses and in the texts quoted in the main post, it’s plain that God had a special presence or “dwelling” above the ark. He really did. The mercy seat was, in essence, the throne of God.

(Psa 99:1-2 ESV) The LORD reigns; let the peoples tremble! He sits enthroned upon the cherubim; let the earth quake! 2 The LORD is great in Zion; he is exalted over all the peoples.

Now, we can be too literal, of course, and picture God somehow confined by time and space to the top of the ark, and that is, of course, not right at all — as Solomon made clear at the dedication of the temple. But we can too figurative and imagine that God has no real time-and-space special connection to the ark, and that wouldn’t be right either.

The text is clear that God had a special presence there and that he spoke to Moses from that physical location — although God could certainly speak to Moses anywhere he pleases. He chose to make the mercy seat above the ark the center of his communications. He wanted the people to think of him having a special dwelling there.

The same was later true of the temple until the Glory of God left the temple as described in Ezekiel.

(Eze 11:22-23 ESV) 22 Then the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them.  23 And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city.

The special presence of God there was a sign that the Israelites were God’s people and that he communicated with them in a special way. And the Glory of God is shown as leaving the temple when God allowed Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the city and the temple.

Obviously the image of the cherubs and mercy seat were powerful images in the Jewish mind and used in poetry and apocalyptic writing. The language sometimes truly is figurative at times. Of course. But the use of figurative language at times hardly means it’s always figurative.

In such cases, I believe that when we read that deity was “in” or “on” or “near” a certain person, place or thing…that it was his influence or blessings etc., that are being referred to. Just like when Jesus said that he was “in” his disciples in Jn. 15 (and that they were “in” him as well). Nobody understands that to be any type of “personal indwelling.” This is/was the normal way of understanding this up until the promises and work of the Spirit. For some reason, when it comes to the Spirit being “in” a believer….it just has to be deity personally and actually “residing”, and I don’t see why? Why not understand such passages consistent with the way we understand God “dwelling” between the cheribums, and with Jesus abiding “in” his disciples?

I readily grant that the language is sometimes figurative of God’s influence or blessings. But it’s a mistake to say that therefore it’s always a mere figure. Abraham would be one counter-example. God sat in Abraham’s tent and spoke to him in human form. He dwelled with Abraham in the fullest, truest, most literal sense of the word, and yet God was not only in his tent.

And, if I am right, it does not prevent the Spirit from blessing me with any so called “direct operation.” For clearly, men and women were able to resist and/or obey the Spirit before and without having any type of personal indwelling whatsoever (ie, Isa. 63 & Acts 7).

Yes, God can operate directly on our hearts by whatever means he chooses. But one means he chooses is through a personal indwelling — but not only by that means.

Now, obviously, if one were to cut open a living Christian, he wouldn’t find the Holy Spirit. We shouldn’t be that literal (which is how I understood it in the third grade). But there is still a sense in which the Spirit relates to a Christian that is unique to Christians and that is best described as being “in” the Christian. It means, at the least, a direct, powerful connection between our hearts and minds and the Spirit — not mediated by a book or a human. I discussed this in some depth at “Going Deeper into the Holy Spirit,” and I won’t repeat all that material here.

Because the Spirit is working directly on our hearts and minds, and because these things are literally in us, the Spirit must be in us in a similar sense while it’s doing this.

Finally, I would be very interested in reading what you have to say about:
1. Whether or not individual believers can determine to be “more filled” with the Spirit this year than they were last year? And are recent converts just “as filled” with the Spirit as are the faithful believers of years and years (do all believers have the Spirit equally)?

Absolutely. The scriptures repeatedly urge us to “be filled with the Spirit” — which obviously means we might somehow cooperate with the Spirit’s work within us.

(Eph 5:18-21 ESV) 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

“Be filled” is passive but parallels “do not get drunk.” Paul is speaking of volitional actions but in the passive voice. You see, only God can fill us, but we can submit to it. It’s the same paradox we see in —

(Phi 2:12-13 ESV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

We must “work out” our salvation, even though “it is God who works” in us to “will and to work for his good pleasure.” “Will” refer to our volition — our desires. God works in us to change what we want and therefore what we do — but we must work with God. And it’s in working with God that we can be more filled with the Spirit next year than this.

Of course, we’re either indwelt or we’re not, either saved or not. But the degree to which our wills are conformed to God’s, the degree to we are restored to his image, changes as we mature in Christ in response to God’s work within us.

2. Is it possible for the Spirit to depart from within a believer?

Absolutely. “Quench the Spirit” in 1Th 5:19 is a poor translation. The word means to put out a fire. We usually use “quench” to refer to quenching a thirst — which comes back quickly and easily. An extinguished fire is dead and done. The same thought shows up in —

(Heb 6:4-6 ESV) 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

(Heb 10:26-31 ESV) 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude describes people who appear to have once been saved but are now “devoid of the Spirit.”

(Jud 1:5-19 ESV) 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day– 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. … 17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

So, no, I don’t teach once saved always saved or the perseverance of the saints. And as all who have the Spirit are saved (Rom 8:9-11), if someone falls away, he loses the Spirit.