We’re all familiar with the story of Gideon, who twice laid out fleece as a means of confirming God’s will. It’s in Judges.
Nowadays, many good Christians attempt to follow in Gideon’s footsteps, “laying out a fleece,” to determine God’s will in a matter. For example, a group of Christians trying to decide whether to buy land for an expansion might say in a prayer, “If the realtor calls before 5:00, that will be a sign that God wants us to buy the land. If the realtor calls after 5:00, that will be a sign that God does not.” And then they act based on God’s will as found in that sign.
Now, obviously, God could certainly show his will this way were he so inclined. My question is: Is he so inclined? May we, like Gideon, determine what sign God will use to reveal his will?
Here’s the passage —
(Jdg 6:36-40 ESV) 36 Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, 37 behold, I am laying a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece alone, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said.” 38 And it was so.
When he rose early next morning and squeezed the fleece, he wrung enough dew from the fleece to fill a bowl with water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, “Let not your anger burn against me; let me speak just once more. Please let me test just once more with the fleece. Please let it be dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground let there be dew.” 40 And God did so that night; and it was dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground there was dew.
Since we are not similarly called in our day to overthrow our own Midianites, I would find the adoption of the similar means to determine God's will in other situations problematic.
My question would be: why do so many Christians seem to look to the Old Testament for specific guidance in matters of, and related to, faith?
I suppose that there might be situations where God would answer our inquiry through some test such as laying out fleece, or casting lots, etc. But there might be situations where he would not be so inclined — namely, those decisions we ought to already know his will based on things taught in scripture.
An interesting, and perplexing, incident happened to Balaam in Numbers 22. Balaam inquired of God whether he should go to Balak and put a curse in Israel. God told him not to go, and he did not go. Then Balak sent more messengers and asked again. Balaam inquired again of God, and God said to go… but then God was angry when he went. "Your path is a reckless one…" God should not have had to tell Balaam twice. Then in chapter 3, God sent this message through Balaam: "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"
Once God has spoken, we should accept his word. Continuing to try to get a different answer is showing disrespect.
correction… "Then in chapter 23…"
God does change his mind and enforce or dismiss what and when he chooses. He is God. That fact is hard to swallow for legalist.
We teach: Touch the ark and be struck dead. We don't teach: but eat the forbidden shew bread and it was overlooked.
We teach half the story of Nadab and Abihu, the bad punishment part only.
Save Sodom if 50 righteous found, then 45, 40, less, until down to 10.
Children in Sunday School could give more examples than me, I've forgotten..
Personally, we we pray for help and receive it but we err when we then give either a doctor the credit or even worse, state that the first diagnoses regardless of how sure the doctors were was wrong, never giving God the thanks for answering the prayers we sent to Him.
To have God heal (as we asked) would be a "miracle" and we can't have those today.Sorta confusing huh! That is why so many will not ask as directed by God but only will say thy will be done. Fear to ask in case it was granted opens too many questions and contradicts too much doctrine and teachings.
Grace only? NO, that is not what I'm saying. Is there Grace today? YES! that is what I'm saying.
We in the churches of Christ have a problem receiving Grace. God does not have a problem giving it.
Whether God goes in our opinion or teachings too far to the right or left of our beliefs, LAY OUT THE FLEECE!
Laying out fleece is about learning God's will. The implication is that once you learn his will you will do it.
Grace is about what God might do when we don't do his will. Quite a different subject. If we're laying out fleece because we know what God has said to do but we don't want to do it, then we're not really listening to God — we're arguing with him.
it seems to me, if we want to follow in gideon's footsteps exactly, we would need to have already received from God his will for us in that given situation. and then we (out of a lack of faith, quite possibly) lay out a fleece a couple of times to make sure we really heard God correctly.
so i have to wonder if it's the best idea to model our fleece-laying after gideon.
Two things, first since having Grace and the indwelling Holy Spirit do we need fleeces? My understanding is we do not because the Spirit pours out God's love in our hearts, Romans 5:5. I want to act in faith knowing that God loves me and will be with me in all situations. He has a way with details that I cannot fathom.
Second, the Scripture that is continually referred to in the NT is the Law and the Prophets. So when Paul writes in Romans 15:4 he tells us that we can learn from scripture, attaining patience and comfort so that we can have hope. And that is just one example.
So we get a "two-fer" with the Spirit and the Scripture and that is only the beginning of the adventure. Lay out fleeces in hope and wonder if you choose. But learn to follow Jesus along the way and submit to His love.
Well I am one of those weak faithed Christians who makes all major decisions by the fleece. I do not know the mind of God but I really want to please Him so when I am facing a serious either "a" or "b" decision I pray and lay out 2 or 3 conditions to be met to show me the path to take. When I have asked He has not failed to show me which way to go. Face it the Scriptures tell us the kinds of things we should be doing but it can't tell me to go with this option as opposed to another. I could easily just say "He'll be pleased either way – both options are obedience." But there is only one me and I don't get to make decisions twice so I want Him to call the shots as much as possible. And in my experience He does.
The most clear example for me was a few years ago when I was interviewing for 3 different positions. I prayed that God would show His will by having the chosen eldership ask me 3 different specific questions that would not normally come up in an interview. The questions were asked verbatim.
All I can say is I use this method and it does work. I think like everything else with God, He works with each of us according to what we each believe and His grace makes it all cool.
When I come to a fork in the road decision, I lay down the fleece and wait for an answer.
I see God having fleece before Him, When I pray He considers more than I can comprehend and picks up one. My asking many times causes Him to pick up the one I asked for even if I didn't deserve it. That I call grace influencing the fleece.
Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said,
Gideon seemed to be questioning (1) Is this really God I am hearing (2) Can God really back this up or am I going on a limb that will break off (3) I can't see how I could do this or why I should be chosen (4) I just can't believe my ears that this deliverance might actually happen.
Most of the fleece descriptions given in posts on this thread are not asking the above questions, but, rather, "Given that the answers to above questions are 'Yes,' how can I exercise my faith to be most obedient to God's sovereign will?".
Although we may call both scenarios a "fleece," one is more "prove to me I should have faith" and that other is "I have faith, help me to see Your will." Since we use the term "fleece" differently, I don't see how the "anti-fleece" comments are relevant under the second condition.
The other thing is that since God is sovereign, He can call another Gideon and show him the fleece whenever and however He deems it appropriate. And my opinion of what may happen today or doesn't happen today means nothing.
If Todd and Alabama John believe that God gives guidance to them in making decisions by using a conceptual "fleece," then God will work according to their faith in His power. If I don't believe in "fleeces" or other manifestations of God, then maybe my remaining option is to cast some lots. (?)
lol, but that is another thread…
I'm thinking that God might be shocked if some of us actually asked Him a question and admitted we didn't already know…:) "You do not have because you do not ask"…"Ask and you will receive."…."If a son ask for bread, will his father give him a rock."…..Not sure why asking for guidance would be any different than asking for anything else… Seems like an important theme in the N.T. is…ASK !! But the ole fleece thing is kind of precarious…about the time you ask the Good Lord whether its behind door number 1 or number 2….He'll show you something behind door number 3… eyes to see and ears to hear !!
Todd, do you give God the blame for bad decisions, as well as credit for the good, or have you ever made a bad decision? I believe that is the reason he gave us decision making thought. And the reason we will be held responsible.
Laymond
That is an interest question. Even though it was 40 years ago, I can still remember someone asking me that same question. This person was an atheist.
But your statement, I think, is correct, God did give us decision making thought and the responsibility for the outcome, and this started in the Garden.
How to make the right decision and receive the blessing of the outcome is the question.
Jesus said He and the Father were one. Jesus said He did the will of the Father. Whatever Jesus asked of the Father, the Father would do for Him. Jesus knew the perfect will of the Father and acted in obedience to that.
What about us? Jesus said "Whatever you ask in My name…." John said whatever we ask "according to His will" (John 5:14). The Spirit searches the mind of God, and we are to have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2), but, speaking for myself, I'm not there yet, and i have a lot of growing to do to understand "the will of the Father" as Jesus did. I am going to make some mistakes while learning. Is God to blame for this when He has set up the process for me to grow into perfection?
It only seems fair and logical from a human standpoint that blame and credit are alternatives that have to go together. But in my process of growing in the Spirit to become more knowledgeable of the will of a perfect God, there is no blame or credit involved. There is only growth and more growth, only "ever increasing glory." God's will is perfect and God wants me to know His will, and as I can put more and more of the flesh away, I will understand more and more of His will. I will praise God for good decisions, and I will praise God for delivering me from sin of bad decisions. Also, "good" and "bad" are relative terms. I have been prevented from making what I thought at the time was a really "good" decision, and I didn't realize until the retrospective view of years later that it would been a really "bad" decision with really bad consequences.
God works in each of us according to our faith. If one person has faith for "fleeces," God will work through that, as long as the faith and the praise and glory go to God. But, I don't think God would honor a magic show that would resemble witchcraft.
I have learned to be more careful about viewing God from my perspective – how can God do this – if you credit God he has to get the blame too – God doesn't work that way anymore – well, I haven't seen anything like that – when I realized that what I was saying was dangerously close to statements I heard made by total disbelievers in God. Something just didn't seem right about that.
Laymond I don't think I said I take every decision to God. I said I use the fleece concept for major decisions where two equal choices appear to be before me. Times when I feel my own perceptions are not to be trusted.
As to what is good and bad, in light of Romans 8:28 how do I define that? I know he has led me to places that were very unpleasant and even painful. Did that make those places bad? Did that make the decision to go there bad? Or was that time of trial a time where He had specific life lessons to teach which will (or have) come in handy at a later point in His work? I know that I have made decisions on my own that had unpleasant outcomes. Again doesn't the example of multiple characters in the Bible prove that God will weave even these gross mistakes into the pattern of His will? I know I have made decisions on my own which worked out really well. Does that keep me from giving Him the glory for the outcome?
I know you have very little room in your belief structure for these things. But this is how I ask God to guide me according to His sovereign will and as far as I can tell He has done so with total faithfulness. I know you don't necessarily agree with my interpretation of the Scriptures on this point, but you cannot deny that it is a possibly reasonable interpretation of the text.
All,
It seems to me that there is a difference to consider —
If I say to God, "I'll do X if my daughter is on the front porch when I come home, but I'll do Y if she's not," then I've forced God to speak. What if God doesn't want to give guidance in this case? What if he doesn't care? How do I know that my daughter's choice of where to greet me is a sign at all?
But Gideon asked God to give a sign that was nearly impossible short of a miracle. God could have refused to give a sign.
Therefore, Todd's example is, to me, a better kind of "laying out fleece" — and shows much more faith than many of us have.
Todd: "The most clear example for me was a few years ago when I was interviewing for 3 different positions. I prayed that God would show His will by having the chosen eldership ask me 3 different specific questions that would not normally come up in an interview. The questions were asked verbatim."
In Todd's case, the requested sign was, like Gideon's, very improbable, and God had the opportunity to give no sign at all.
After all, I'm not sure God always cares which job we take. It may be that he will be glorified either way. Moreover, if I pick an either-or "sign," then I've decided there will be a sign, even if God has no desire to speak to me. It's a practice that creates false signs. And I don't think it's right to presume that God wants to answer my question.
I know a case of an eldership that prayed for a sign. They specified that they would act based on whether a call was made before or after 5:00 — which, of course, had to happen whether or not God chose to speak. The call came before 5:00, they decided God had given them a sign, and they made what proved to be a disastrous decision.
Todd " I said I use the fleece concept for major decisions where two equal choices appear to be before me."
If the choices are equal, how do you decide you made the best one.
Laymond, are you actually reading what we are discussing?
Once I hand the choice over to God all I do is wait for an answer. (As Jay suggests there may in theory be times when God does not answer – I just haven't experienced it yet.) Once I have received an answer I don't second guess the decision at all. I go with what I believe God has directed and don't look back. The decision is the decision. For me it is an issue of having faith that God has spoken. The result is up to Him and as I tried to explain earlier "good" and "bad" outcomes don't factor into it. I trust He knows what He is doing. As I said in my initial post this is not a decision between black and white, good and bad but a man who wants to please God in the best way possible who believes God will indicate which way best pleases Him if I open the process up to Him.
I hesitate to post this story, for reasons obvious when you read it, but I think everyone already knows from previous posts that I spend some time in la-la-land. So whatever.
A post-doctoral fellowship was coming to an end, and I needed to find a real job. Good academic jobs were not plentiful and to make it worse, I had some geographical constraints and a colleague and I were actually looking for two jobs in the same department so we could continue to collaborate and work together using a common technique that was very difficult to do and required unusual dedicated space. My friend was of the charismatic dimension, and I was just beginning to try to figure some of that out. Time was ticking and I started getting anxious. Not surprisingly, my friend had more faith and confidence than I did.
I was just learning about things like signs and wonders that God still did currently, as opposed to leaving back in the first century, and that one could stand on faith of the word of God. So, reading about the fleece of Gideon, I decided I would ask God for a sign that things were going to work out and I would not have to live with my family under a bridge somewhere.
So I prayed that the next day, a feasible job possibility would be brought to my attention. The next day my previous graduate advisor made an unusual stop by by lab area and told me about a job opening he had heard about. But it wasn't a real good option for me, because it was located out of my optimum geographical area. So that night I worried about whether or not this was the sign I had asked for. I reasoned that the job wasn't that good and that I didn't really think the guy who told me was a Christian anyway so I wasn't sure he would hear from God (classic CoC attitude).
Since Gideon got to pray for a second fleece sign, I prayed that someone who I knew to be a Christian would tell me about a real possibility in my geographical area. The next day, my colleague showed me a job posting from a university just about in the center of my geographical area.
So, that was beyond doubt. I felt obligated to apply for the job. Didn't make it past the first cut. But I had the sign that things wee going to work out okay.
More time went by with more possibilities not working out, and I started to get nervous again. So I asked God to do the fleece thing again. Nothing happened. Even waited several days – nothing. Prayed again – nothing. So, I asked God what was wrong, why didn't this work anymore.
There have only been a few times that I have had words come into my mind in direct response to a specific prayer to God. I remember them all. The words may not sound like God (which is what, King James English?) but remember they have come through my human filter and understanding.
"I needed Gideon, so I put up with that request, but I don't need you like that. You are just going to have to have faith."
That was over 35 years ago, and I haven't asked for a fleece sign since.
How did it work out? Within a short time, it was announced that a new medical school was opening and entire departments were being staffed. My colleague and I both got jobs in the same department with lab space side by side, all within my geographical territory. When it started to happen, things moved so fast it was hard to keep up. But even on short notice and apparently unlikely odds, things worked out.
God works through different people in different ways according to His sovereign will. Sometimes He operates within our comfort zone and sometimes He stretches our faith to operate in a different comfort zone in a challenging new area.
This ole used-to-be-cessationist CoC boy had been just barely prepared sufficiently by God to survive, and grow spiritually, from spending the next 12 years on the faculty at Oral Roberts University.
Laymond, was that a good outcome or a bad outcome? Depends on one's perspective. I wondered myself more than once. But, looking back at it now, I would never want to miss what I learned about the operation of God's awesome power in those 12 years, and the 3 prior years of preparation. It is am important foundation for what God has call me to now.
Walking by sight (fleece) vs faith (Holy Spirit) has some application to the decision making process. We have the Holy Spirit who speaks to us in different ways (His word, circumstances, counsel, etc). We sometimes hear right and other times wrong. Either way we gain experience in hearing God and He usually works it out to our benefit in some way. Good training to increase our seeking skills and faith.
Well Theo, I guess it could have been good if you believed in what Oral Roberts taught and did, it would not have been good for me.
Actually it was the opposite, Laymond.
It would not have been good for for me, either, if God had not prepared me by dragging me through a series of mine fields, kicking and screaming the whole way, for about 3 years.
In terms of OR doctrine, I didn't agree with most of what I heard; but that made me go to the scriptures and dig out what I considered to be the truth. I was challenged in a lot of areas that I hadn't thought about much before, and so I did a lot of textual research that I wouldn't have done otherwise.
In terms of what I witnessed, I saw the power of God operate in people's lives in unmistakable fashion and in ways that I thought had passed away after the apostles. Getting out of a box can expand one's theology as well.
My zeal for restoration of NT Christianity is greater then ever, but my understanding of what needs to be restored is very different. We in the CoC have cut off our own faucet. It's like looking at the universe through some binoculars in the back yard compared to pictures from the Hubble. We must restore the Spirit of NT Christianity, not the structure of rules as we have doctrinally assembled them. Once you see the Hubble, you don't want to go back to binoculars. But if you think the Hubble doesn't exist, you never will know what you missed. At least not know in this life. (That would be most unprogressive.)
Seeing God's power at work will also change one's understanding of the universal body of Christ and will force one to recognize that God is not limited by our little doctrinal rules. That then forces one to reprioritize what must really be important in considering who is a Christian. Just like Peter and the Gentiles. God has made that decision, and He doesn't need my rules or my water baptistery or my pitch pipe or anything else to help Him decide.
I had a friend (who was Mormon) tell me that going to Oral Roberts University would be the same as going to hell. I have to admit that there was more than one occasion when I wondered if that might be true. But the challenges and blessings of those years made me grow more spiritually and more in an understanding of God's revealed word than I would ever have done while remaining encased in my little cozy CoC doctrinal box.
So I thank God for those challenging years and for the people who patiently bore witness to me of God's power.
Theo, after an experince like that for so long, pray tell why did you leave?
I can't seem to add all this up.
Dr. T… thanks for sharing…couldn't agree more !! When God created man he "breathed into him the breath of life"….and then and only then did he become a living BEING. He breathed himself into the church and it became a vibrant organization… When we purposefully exhale and remove the Holy Spirit from our everyday life we become living DOINGS and the life comes out of our church community…
In the book of Job, Elihu, who seemed intimately familiar with God, said that if God wanted to do it, He could remove His Spirit and Breath and all humanity would perish… Removing the Spirit of Life from our presence is like smoking…it's a purposeful way to die…
What Gideon was doing was looking to have confirmation of God's word. Though I have heard from God on matters before, because I am so inexperienced in such things, I have asked God for confirmations before. Sometimes they have come through study, sometimes through dreams, sometimes through other believers, and even sometimes through "throwing out a fleece" so to speak. I too had the same feeling about it though, where Gideon was like "please don't be angry God," because it is like you are questioning his voice. You are, but the heart motive is right. I am just wanting to follow God's voice as much as possible.
It was a set of very unique circumstances that I would have ever gone to ORU. As a small undergraduate university, they could find enough faculty who had a pentecostal/assemblies/"charismatic" type doctrine. When they started specialized graduate programs, they had to recruit people like me, because they wouldn't have ever found enough faculty and clinicians to form an accreditable medical school if they limited hiring to only people with pentocostal/assemblies doctrines. So in a sense, God prepared ORU as He prepared me.
ORU started 7 graduate schools in 1978 – medical school, dental school, law school, graduate nursing, graduate theology, and 2 more that I can't recall now, maybe education . Most of the existing academic organizations in each respective area (esp. law, theology, medical) opposed ORU's schools, partly because of suspicion and partly because of the competition for students or hospital patients. When the oil economy took a dive in early 80's, sources for funding went down and the overextended nature of doing too much at one time became evident. Selected pressures weighed on some schools, as well. The Theology school had internal problems because faculty wouldn't support, and even publicly opposed, the "give & receive" seed-faith message, to be later developed into what has been referred to as "prosperity gospel." That conflict couldn't be tolerated, so the Theology school was closed. Outside law organizations began to threaten and sue the university because Oral wouldn't back down on his position of not hiring any faculty who were homosexual. The negative publicity got bad enough, plus the finance issue, that the law school was given to Pat Robertson's university. In dentistry at the time, fluoride in toothpaste and water began to have an effect on the number of dentist visits, and the attraction of a career in dentistry took a dive; for a time there were so few applicants to dental schools that the national average of ratio of applicants to acceptances was 1.1/1.0. In other words, apply to dental school and there is a 90% chance of being selected. The dental school couldn't grow and a future in that field didn't look good (at that time), so it closed. The nursing school undergrad and grad programs made it through largely unscathed because a very wise dean had somehow put all of the nursing school's endowment into a trust so that no one else could get it. So the horses were drawn around the medical school and City of Faith hospital, by which the vision of merging prayer and medicine would be fulfilled. But, a fatal flaw. No matter how successful one may be, everyone also carries the seeds of their own potential undoing. A big problem with the OR administration was control. They didn't know how to run a medical school and hospital, but they just couldn't turn it over to anyone else who did. So the medical school & hospital incurred more and more problems and more financial debt, until Sept 1989, when OR announced that the medical school and COF hospital would close.
I was one of the founding faculty for the dental and medical schools and I was one of the last faculty to leave and "close the doors." God opened a door to a job at another medical school in 1990.
I may be the only person who joined the faculty at ORU who was a "born and raised" CoC member and who left over a decade later with the same church affiliations. I have some pretty amusing stories about interactions with Oral Roberts, Bill Banowsky (President of Univ Oklahoma at the time), and others during those years.
I used to say that I was at ORU despite OR and not because of him. The "party line" only sent me to the scripture to find the truth. The real witness was from other faculty whose backgrounds were very different from mine, but who had the power of God in their lives like I had never seen before.
So, in typical "tell you more than you would ever want to know" fashion, that is why I went to ORU and why I left 12 years later.
Theo. No, not to much at all, I have always as long as I can remember wondered why people did what they do. And most of the time what I find out is, the reason mostly comes down to finances. Then as Christians have a propensity to do they say God gave them the job, so I guess in a way we all practice "prosperity gospel." Just not as blatantly as Oral did. Just like “throwing the fleece “ we want God to pick the way that will be more advantageous to our self. Because naturally we think if we follow the way God picks, it will be to our advantage. Why else would we do it, I have heard it said God don’t need anything we can give him.
Laymond please tell me you meant this post "tongue in cheeck"and you did not just accuse every one of us who have ever spent long nights praying and seeking God's face for guidance as to our place in His work and have used methods you don't trust of doing so for our own personal gain. The last time I used the fleece to pick positions I gave up $35000 in annual income because I honestly believe this is where He wants me. It has been a year of hardship as we readjusted to our new reality and every morning I thank God for it. (And yes that is 3 zeroes.)
Some of us actually do believe all of this and have built our lives upon it. Disagree all you want with the methods we use but don't accuse us falsely.
Laymond, you are correct. Saying that "God gave me the job" is a way of giving thanks to God. It is much harder to be thankful to God for "I got laid off from my job." But Paul essentially does that in Phil 4:11-13, and the promise is peace. Be thankful in all circumstances. When our circumstances are altered is when we are tested.
If we put out a fleece for choice between two paths, have we already preselected? How do we know that God wants either one for us? What if the fleece indicates an option that we really don't like? I asked someone that question once, and he said, "There are some things that God might say that I could hear more clearly than others." I think if we are honest, we could all admit we may be a little like that.
Like so many things, giving and receiving come down to a heart attitude. God gave freely, Jesus Christ gave Himself, so when we give because of what God has done for us, we learn to be more like God. It's like forgiveness. How can I not forgive, knowing how God has forgiven me. That's why we have a higher standard than even "the golden rule," – Treat others like you would want them to treat you. Christians have "the platinum rule" (don't look in your concordance for that one) – Treat others the way God has treated you.
We give ourselves, and money is just a part of that – "…they gave themselves first to the Lord…" (2 Cor 8:5). Jesus was rich, but became poor for our sakes (2 Cor 8:9). When we give money or time or service or love, it should be out of the overflowing of our heart in gratitude for what God has done for us. Then the result will not only be physical help, but will result in praise and thanksgiving to God (2 Cor 9).
And, Laymond, I think you are exactly right. Even though we know the above to be true, there is a tendency to be affected by the "prosperity message" and think that our sowing generously in finances will result in even more money for us. And it may, but the identify of that return of many fold is up to God and not up to me to define. But, Paul said that when God does bless, the reason is — "You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God." This verse doesn't say richness is always in money or possessions or financial security. It may be, but the identity of the return is under the sovereignty of God.
Too often Christians can have more "faith" directed toward receiving something from god our genie rather than submitting to God our Creator. That reveals greed, which Paul said is idolatry. The "prosperity message" exploits that fleshly desire. That can involve all sorts of fleshly attitudes, not only to those that try to "fleece God."
John said to "test the spirits," and there are tests for false doctrines. Detection of falsehood among "partial truths" requires a great deal of discernment. I became much more sensitive to that challenge while at ORU; but this challenge is everywhere. Jesus said ,"Your faith has made you whole," but the false doctrine says, "you weren't healed because you didn't have faith, or you didn't do this, or you didn't ….." Jesus taught about sowing and reaping, but the false doctrine says if you lose your job or can't pay some bills that you must be out of God's will and unfaithful in some way. What God really wants is for me to grow to be more like Him, and it takes some trials to do that, God will allow me to find them. Humans who take spiritual truths from the scripture and make self-benefiting binding physical doctrines out of them are false prophets. And that practice is rampant.
"Seek you first the kingdom of God and all these other things will be added to you" is a promise from God. But "Lord, I'm attending church and putting in my check, so 'where's the beef?'" is not covered by that promise.
Putting out a fleece can be a very spiritual thing to do; it depends on the attitude. Sowing and reaping and a generous return according the manifold blessing of God is a real biblical teaching. However, applying that principle to what I want rather than what God says I need is not biblical. But that is the popular message people want to hear, and that is the worldly attitude that trying to gain entrance into the church.
There are many Christian people who God has blessed abundantly in physical and financial ways. Wealth ruins some people, but others use their abundance to share with others for the glory of God. It's a matter of the heart. Exercising good stewardship of what God has given to us for use in His kingdom is a way of glorifying God, at whatever level of financial prosperity that God has chosen.
Laymond, you said, "Because naturally we think….." That sums it up right there. When anyone thinks "naturally" – in the flesh, in the physical realm only – he is bound for the wrong track, no matter what platitudes he may spout along the way.
This, and a great many other symptoms of pollution from the world, show that the church is at risk for slipping away from keeping its "eyes on Jesus." That would be a direction toward apostasy.
While I was writing my lengthy pontification, Todd was writing a much shorter post that illustrated a spiritual desire of his heart to follow God's will, wherever that might be. Amen, brother. When one starts with that submission to God, whatever is used to try to determine God's will is secondary, and whatever name it goes by is way down the list of important topics to fret about.
Even if one thought that fleeces died out in the first century with the apostles, submission to God's will to bring glory to Him unquestionably lives on.
Thank you, Todd, for that testimony.
@ Laymond…can't speak to your experience but the people that I know who take their prayer life and relationship with God seriously act quite differently that what you described. Many move in a direction that makes no sense to anybody but them but they move forward with great expectation because they are sure they have "heard" from God.. And, the outcomes have been nothing shy of spectacular… Now, are there people who blame the devil on every consequence of poor judgement…sure… Are there people that give God credit for chance circumstances…undoubtedly…but that isn't the topic of this discussion and I'm with Todd in hoping that your comments weren't a disparging condemnation toward events to which you may have no experience, It's sometimes difficult to tell the tone and/or intent of one's comments so I readily acknowledge that I may also have misinterpreted your remarks.
For my friends here… submitted with full permission by my pastor David Cooper…
Enjoy !
Powerful message, Price. Thank you and praise God.
Price that is a touching song, but I can't remember a place in scripture that said pray for the poor and destitute .
I know there are people who believe that is all that is required, but we will be judged on what we do, not what we ask God to do.
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Maybe I misinterpreted the video, but it appeared to me that people were bringing boxes of food and blankets to people on the street and other things like the woman who let one of the poor and destitute people hold her baby. I thought that was the point of the video, illustrating people putting faith and prayer into action. Did I add something that was unauthorized?
First off, I am a believer in Christ, I have placed my trust in Him alone for my salvation as stated in Eph 2:8-9. After being born-again there were times in my life when I needed an answer from God in short order and I have used a particular fleece and God has graciously answered them. The questions I had pertained to my work, some personal issues and ministry related issues. Every answer I had received I have obeyed. There were times I did not receive an answer and I later realized I was asking the wrong question. God does answer His children if the question is proper. I have a great testimony on this subject and if it were not true I would not be writing about it.