Thought Question: Church Founded in India Through Debate with Free Will Baptists

31 Responses to Thought Question: Church Founded in India Through Debate with Free Will Baptists

1. John says:

   August 4, 2011 at 6:42 am

   As long as there are differing religious groups there will be debates, though they tend to go through periods of flourishing and waning.

   Gaining converts through debates is no proof of truth. After all, the non-cooperation members of the CoC, as well as one cuppers and those of the anti-Sunday School movement were able, at times, to win over entire congregations during their power days.

   That is not to say we cannot reason together. That takes love and respect. But most “debates” I have witnessed or heard about usually left both sides pounding their chests with pride while accusing those who went to the other side as”not well grounded in the truth, anyway”.
2. David P Himes says:

   August 4, 2011 at 7:29 am

   I always cringe a little, whenever I read about “debates” between denominations — because I don’t believe we should be about debates, but rather, we should simply be proclaiming Jesus.

   If we introduce people to Jesus, His message will prevail where hearts are receptive. We should always remember that it is the Spirit who touches the heart of people — not our words.
3. konastephen says:

   August 4, 2011 at 7:54 am

   There is something parasitic about this kind of practice. That these anti-denominational denominations can’t seem to make a convert unless it’s by stealing an already converted brother to their cause.

   The rhetoric of the linked post does not sound Christian to me. It is very easy to get people’s backs up through honed skills at debating. It is unkind to paint themselves as gracious and the others as ‘aggressive’.

   What exactly did these men refute from the Baptists? What were they in the dark about—some mere technicality, some supposed nuance? Did they seriously re-immerse these people—killing again the reborn?? To me, this kind of conversion is blasphemous!
4. Randall says:

   August 4, 2011 at 7:57 am

   The article contained this brief paragraph:

   “Brother Markus Kisku and I studied with them and we revealed every truth, not hiding anything from them. There was careful teaching in the matter of the Usli Kalasia, baptism, plan of Salvation, pattern of worship.”

   I might have a few questions about “every truth” that go beyond “baptism, plan of Salvation, pattern of worship.”

   It seems there has been a successful conversions of members of one denomination to members or another denomination. Wish they spent their time preaching the gospel of grace to those that have not heard it rather than convincing believers to change their ecclesiology a little bit.
   Hesed,
   Randall
5. laymond says:

   August 4, 2011 at 8:32 am

   A little like the conservative, and progressive CoC getting together. 🙂
6. Adam says:

   August 4, 2011 at 9:49 am

   Strange that the group preaching one church then turns around and denies one baptism.

   So sad to see the failures of the Western church transplanted to India. May they not be bound in our cycles of corporate failure!!
7. Rich W says:

   August 4, 2011 at 10:24 am

   I have worshipped and worked in India. The people are the most hospitible I have ever encountered.
8. Jerry Starling says:

   August 4, 2011 at 11:05 am

   How familiar this is.
9. Anne says:

   August 4, 2011 at 11:10 am

   I wonder if you could call Peter and John before the Sanhedrin a debate?
10. guestfortruth says:

    August 4, 2011 at 11:49 am

    Debates are necessary while the father of lie is free, his demons and his false teacher ( 2 Cor. 11:15). Jesus debated the devil with his word in Mat. 4 : 3-10. The devil know real well the Word of God even better than all of you, but he does not live it. The devil use false teaching to deviate the souls as many in the religious world “Ecumenism” . (2 Cor. 11:13-15). The false teachers and prophets with whom we must contend do not announce themselves as false teachers. They are subtle and sly. They live from the believers without doing the will of God (2 Peter 2:3). For all the world they try to pass themselves off as minister of righteousness. Jesus said they had on sheep’s clothing. They put on a fine front, and who can detect them? Someone may ask, “ Do they know that they are false teachers?” I doubt it in most cases . Paul said, “But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived “ ( 2 Tim. 3:13). See, they even deceive themselves. Randall I afraid that you have been deceived seeing the church that belong to Christ as a denomination, Do you believe what the Word of God said about his truth about the body (church) of Christ?. Remember the warning of God in Romans 2:8 “but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,” and “that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Tes. 2:12). The devil use this slogan “ Does not matter what church you attend every way will lead you to Jesus” Is that true?.
11. Joe Baggett says:

    August 4, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    When I was a missions major we did some survey trips to foreign countries. You would be surprised how often this occurs. The church of Christers come in late behind other denominations and have some type of bible study or public debate and claim they made new converts (This has happened in Africa and several Latin American countries as well). The truth is that it is easier to come in and convince a relatively new believer that their method of doing church is wrong, than it is to make an entire new believer from someone who truly did not believe before. I realized and pledged to myself that if I ever did missions full time I would not waste my time trying to convince the Christians that were already there that they were doing things wrong. Did we learn anything about the era of debates in the USA or have we forgotten those wounds?
12. Joe Baggett says:

    August 4, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    The brotherhood news should not have reported this as a victory as they have but rather a tragedy.
13. konastephen says:

    August 4, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Oh what a silly time we live in. ??????????????? telling us that only they have the objective unvarnished truth of the ‘restored’ church. That only their reading of scripture is untainted by tradition and locale. They make every little thing an essential doctrine of Christianity. They argue that everything as ‘A is not non-A’; that our church is THE church, therefore all other assemblies/groups are not a part of the Lord’s church. Their logic is as if to say that apples are red and so certainly Granny Smiths are not apples. Who, prêt ell, baptized Euthydemus? Who let the sophists in…?

    May debates continue with wisdom. Many truth be proclaimed. May the Priscillas and Aquilas of the world continue to explain “the way of God more accurately.” May the solipsistic and divisive coC preachers be muzzled.
14. guestfortruth says:

    August 4, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    Joe,

    where are you being? Do you know that now we are debating the Atheisms in USA ? Our beloved brethren from apologetic press are doing great Job. destroying the work of darkness.

    GFT
15. guestfortruth says:

    August 4, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    konastepnen,

    But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, ( 2 Tim. 3:1-3).
16. konastephen says:

    August 4, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    Guest,
    You raise a very pertinent verse. If by it you are trying to explain the actions of rebaptizers in India, then I agree.
    May we at least do as Jim Waldron asks, let’s pray for the hearts and minds of the burgeoning church in India.
17. guestfortruth says:

    August 4, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Konastephen,

    That was the answer about this times. You see there are those ugly things that we see today in our world. The baptist group is not the church of Christ. They have their creed that is not the Holy Scriptures called ” The baptist confession of faith 1689″. Most of the denominations have a “Human Creed”. according to their human creed one is save before baptism. They were baptized for the forgiveness of sin to belong to the Body (church) of Christ.. Remember that “the truth shall meke you free”. Jn. 8:32
18. David P Himes says:

    August 4, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    guestfortruth
    The Church of Christ also has a human creed which includes many doctrines not supported by the New Testament text. We simply rarely admit it and claim that ours is only based upon scripture — which is simply not true.

    So that is not a valid basis to criticize the Baptists, unless you’re willing to equally criticize the CofC on the same basis
19. konastephen says:

    August 4, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    It is not wrong to have creeds (beliefs), it is dishonest to have them and not to acknowledge them. The coC certainly has its share of ‘human’ creeds—and you’ll find out when try to read and practice the bible using commonsense.

    Baptists believe that if you repent that God will forgive. They believe that Jesus asked each of us to by baptized in His name, and so they are obedient. Baptists believe that there are two commands, to repent and to be baptized. They believe that afterwards there are two promises, remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Since baptism covers past, present, and future sins, they don’t really care about when their sins are forgiven.

    My question is whether the coC’s straining of gnats on this particular issue really amount to much more than if one were to assert that all ‘apples must be red’?

    Paul chided people for saying “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”—the coC plays with names just to assert that it is following Christ! Shame!
20. Alabama John says:

    August 4, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    I would not want to get in a debate with the baptist over which of us today is getting more of the others members.
21. HistoryGuy says:

    August 4, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    Laymond,
    I hope your day is going well.

    Your first question is set by the context of Mathew 9:9-13. The self-proclaimed righteous Pharisee challenged Jesus for calling sinners to be his disciple (How could a man of God do such a thing?) In response, Jesus quotes Hos. 6:6 to teach the Pharisee of their condition (Matt. 12:7) by equating them with the supposed righteous priesthood of Hosea’s period, which was actually corrupt and hypocritical. Hence, the climactic condemnation of these self-righteous Pharisee in Mathew 23. While confronting the Pharisee in Mathew 9, Jesus reminds everyone (crowd and Pharisee) that he came to call sinners, who were the crowd and knew their lowly place before God (Luke 18:9-14). Jesus uses the words of the Pharisee to rebuke them, and essentially says “okay, I have not come to call you righteous (more like self-righteous) Pharisee folks who are not sinners (though you really are), but I did come to save these sinners and tax collectors around you, so thanks for asking.” Nevertheles, elsewhere we see that Jesus truly was calling the relative-righteous Pharisee, who served God, but knew they were sinners in need of absolute-righteousness (John 3:1-3; 19:38-40).

    You asked, why did not Jesus call all to repent? He did… Jesus calls everyone of every nation in all the world to repent (Matt. 4:17; Lk. 13:3; Lk. 24:47; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 17:30-31)

    Your 3rd question asked, If my conclusion is right, then Jesus was born of a sinful woman, so how was such righteous born from sin?

    I affirm that Mary was sinful and needed savior (Lk. 1:47; 1 Tim. 2:5). I want to emphasize that Jesus is sinless because of his divine agency; He is God incarnate. Jesus is not just another human creation, he is a new creation. As the second Adam, Jesus’ humanity was not subject to the corruption that came to all of Adam and Eve’s posterity (1 Cor. 15:21-22, 45-47). He is 100% nature of man and 100% nature of God united in one sinless person. That is my primary response because going further into the Christological issue will result in either Nestorianism or Monophysitism.
22. HistoryGuy says:

    August 4, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    Laymond,
    My answer to your previous question is waiting on moderation. In the meantime, will you name a biblical character who you believe went to heaven without the atoning/saving blood of Christ? [I.e. name a biblical character who you believe saved himself]
23. HistoryGuy says:

    August 4, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    Ahhh – wrong area, please Delete last two posts, Jay.
24. Jordan Arnold says:

    August 4, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Maybe my Western sensitivities are getting in the way, but I’m confused by the reported response of the Indian ‘converts,’ their crying and confession, “we had wasted our lives … we gave to nothing.” What’s hard to interpret is this: Are these tears of joy, or tears of sorrow? When the man in Jesus’ parable found the true kingdom, a treasure in the field (Mat. 13), it wasn’t with sorrow he sold all his possessions. It was with great joy! When Apollos was taught the way of God more accurately (Act. 18), I somehow don’t imagine it was with sorrow, but with great joy.
25. ramona says:

    August 4, 2011 at 10:18 pm

    What a waste of time, converting people who are already Christians.

    Maybe we should be more concerned over “those who have not heard.”
26. guestfortruth says:

    August 5, 2011 at 11:17 am

    Ramona,
    That debate was not a waste of time because has to deal with the destiny of the souls. Since the beginning of Christianity in Jerusalem has been attack and opposite of the whole truth (Jn. 17:17) and his specific truth the Gospel of our salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-4) and the inspired apostle peter wrote: “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;”. (1 Peter 3:15 ). If one can not turn to the Bible and find a “thus saith the Lord” for that which he does religiously, then he is not able to give an answer to those who might ask a reason for the hope he has. Doesn’t the Lord admonish us to “prove all things; hold fast which is good?” (1 Thes. 5:21). Doesn’t the Scriptures says, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves”? (2 Cor. 13:5). Have your ever stopped to ask yourself why you are a member of certain group? Can you give a biblical reason for the faith you hold? If not, are you sure you have proved all things and holding fast which is good? Didn’t the Lord say, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God ; because many false prophets are gone out into the world?” (1 Jn 4:1). Unless we constantly examine ourselves to see whether or not we be in the faith, isn’t it possible that in the final day we might be surprised to learn that we were following false teaching? The Scripture says, “Many false prophets are gone out into the world”. The word to give a defense comes from the word “Apologia” That is a Classical Greek term appears in the Koine (i.e. common) Greek of the New Testament. The Apostle Paul employs the term apologia in Paul’s Letter to the Philippians as he is “defending the gospel” (Philippians 1:7 ), and in 1 Peter 3:15 believers must be ready to give an “answer” for their faith. The word also appears in the negative in Romans 1:20: unbelievers are ???????????? (anapolog?toi) (without excuse, defense, or apology) for rejecting the revelation of God in creation. Our restorers pioneers Alexander Campbell et al. were apologetics debaters always the debates is between “ the truth and the lie” (Opposite views). We see the example “14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” (2 Cor. 11:14-15). Other example are the demons of the adversary of God in James 2:19 “19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” but they don’t live the word of God. We believe that the truth of God prevail talking the truth in Love (Eph. 4:15, 1 Cor.16:14). There are sincere believer in the denominations as the example of Apollos before become a Christian the Scripture says “26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” (Acts 18:26). For sure we are concerned for those those who have not heard the Gospel in his purity. Those new souls has been added to the book of life and are new babe in Christ. (1 Peter 2:2) now they are sure about their salvation.
27. Joseph Khati says:

    April 15, 2012 at 7:48 am

    It was quite good to see some of the brethren who actually love “The Truth” and stand for the defense of it. But the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel (Phil 1:17). It was not Paul only who was appointed for the defense of the gospel but it is applicable to all of us today who actually love “The Truth”.
    If Jesus had not defended His father’s doctrine (His doctrine) and simply compromised with the opponent, then there will be no problem and hopefully He wouldn’t be crucified.
    If Paul had not stand against the false religion and had not spoken where these false religion will lead? I think by doing this he would not finish his course and would not proclaim the whole council of God. Because to be silent and agree with the people’s unique doctrine is very easy, everyone will love one who wants to compromise and has no words against but the world hates the one who fights for the sake of Truth.
    As we see Moses chose to fight rather than be comfortable with the riches of the Palace of Pharoah. (Heb 11:24-25)
28. Charles McLean says:

    April 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    My father was a missionary involved in the planting of CoC’s in the Hyderabad and Secunderabad areas in the 1970’s. It never occurred to him or the local believers he teamed with to seek out other Christians and try to “convert” them, but to go where the enemy was most in control. The congregations his team planted are largely still flourishing at last report.

    I think if someone had suggested that he go into all the world and make disciples of the Free-Will Baptists, he’d have thought that was absurd.
29. Joseph Khati says:

    April 16, 2012 at 9:28 am

    It was a good thing to learn that your father was involved in planting the Church of the Lord in India. We need Church planters in every part of the challenging and changing world.
    Have we ever seen any thing like the free will baptist church in the Bible, any were?
    No one is authorized to start his own denomination for Jesus Himself has laid His own foundation of The Church (1 Cor 3:11) So how can it be absurd when we reach the free will baptist with The Truth, when they are still lost.
    Jesus is the author of Salvation to all those who obey Him (Heb 5:9) not of those who don’t keep His commandments but worship Him in vain, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. (Mat 15:9)
    None can be in Christ and become His follower by just standing with Him but teaching the doctrines of Men. ( John 14:15)

    Lets us strive to Praise Jesus not just in spirit but also in Truth…. Because Truth shall make us free from the bondage of sin (John 8:32)

    Joseph Khati
30. Charles McLean says:

    April 16, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Joseph, in a nation in which less than five percent of the people believe in Jesus Christ, it is hard to believe that Jesus’ current disciples have run out of unbelievers with whom to share the gospel, so that now they have moved on to trying to convert each other and separate themselves into factions, excluding one another.

    From Mark 9: “Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

    “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

    Joseph, it may well be that there are tares in the wheat, but what is that to you? There is a whole field to be planted and watered and a great harvest to be gained. I must apologize for the bad influence which has come from America to our Indian brothers, for we have developed some ungodly, divisive habits and passed them on as part of the gospel. We have created factions and sects (including our own) and we teach believers in our sect to fight with others in other factions so that our group may have preeminence, and our particular traditions and views might hold sway over the whole church. This is NOTHING LIKE what Jesus told us to do. For that terrible example, I ask your forgiveness.
31. Joseph Khati says:

    April 21, 2012 at 4:12 am

    Dear brother,
    the problem of small group of Christian doesn’t change the Truth of the Bible. Whether we are small or big it doesn’t mean much, for Christ seek a few hearts which obeys rather than a mass whose hearts are far away from Him. (Mat 15:8,9)
    Just by calling Him Lord! Lord! doesn’t please Him but rather who do His will. (Luke 6:46; Mat 15:9)
    A huge group of unscriptural sects or denomination can’t please Christ for Christ is the author of salvation of only those who keep His commandment not of those big groups whose hearts seek their own. (Heb 5:9)
    Yes brother, India is the 2nd highest populated country in the world and we have lots of people to reach with the gospel but reaching the denomination is like reaching the people of the world the differences is only this, these people are from the denomination of Hindu and our ignorant and those brethren who know the Bible but don’t do what the Bible tells them to do are a denomination like Baptist, Pentecostal, Jehovah witness, Mormon etc.
    Therefore if we love the Truth we must be ready to defend the Truth (Phil 1:17)
    If anyone asks about the Truth then we must be prepared to make a defense (1 Pet 3:15)

    No we didn’t do the debate to form a new denomination by bringing faction and it was not and will not happen to preeminence ourselves but rather it was to restore them into the true Church of the Bible. Not falling to any denomination but becoming the Original Church,returning to the Bible leaving human sects and doctrine. A man cannot be saved in a denomination.

    I agree that many false religions and false doctrines have come out from USA but this doesn’t overlap the good things and the Truth lovers that have come out from USA.
    Yes ofcourse we first heard the doctrines and will of Christ from some of the brethren of USA like Jim Waldron, Garry Jones, JC Choate and many other brothers who have endeavor for the sake of Truth in the past centuries. But now we follow our own Bible not these good brothers although there is nothing wrong following them until and unless they are in the sound doctrine but we speak with the Bible and be silent where the Bible is silent.

    Therefore if anyone is to be saved then he/she should leave the denomination and enter into the kingdom of heaven (i.e Church) through faith in Jesus Christ and completely obeying His commandments.
    1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

    NOTE: – Joh 14:21-24, Joh 8:42, Joh 15:10-14

    In His Service
    Joseph Khati

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