Thought Question: The Other 80 Percent

20 Responses to Thought Question: The Other 80 Percent

1. Price says:

   September 3, 2011 at 6:19 am

   Isaiah 30:21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

   I think this is where the listening ought to be happening… Since it is GOD who is at work in us why don’t we let Him guide us into what we should be doing…?? Of course, that assumes that you believe that He still does that…
2. Jerry Starling says:

   September 3, 2011 at 7:11 am

   Price,

   While there are times to be still and listen to God, it is also necessary for us to listen to Him in His Word – where He clearly instructs the shepherds to care for the sheep. All of the sheep. Ezekiel 34:1-24 still has relevance for the shepherds of God’s people. Too many times, the shepherds today are no better than the shepherds were in Ezekiel’s day.

   Of course, this addresses the what, not the how. As in most issues, the heart of the problem lies in the heart, not in the technique.

   Jerry
3. laymond says:

   September 3, 2011 at 8:22 am

   Jay said, “I’m sure we all agree that most of our members need to be more committed and more active.”

   Unless we spend 24/7 with a person how would we know how actively committed they are.
   I am pretty sure some of the more seemingly committed fit into the category below. They are only committed when someone (important) is watching.

   Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
4. Doug says:

   September 3, 2011 at 8:41 am

   Laymond,

   I’ve heard that response (you just don’t understand or see all the things going on in this congregation ) so many times since joining my church. And, I’ll admit that it makes me feel guilty of judging when I question the activity of the members of my congregation. But, I’d say the proof of the pudding is in how many times during the year the baptismal is used. If it’s used frequently, then I’d agree that there’s a lot going on that I just don’t see but if not???
5. Price says:

   September 3, 2011 at 9:04 am

   Jerry…Agreed… There are instructions in the Word that aren’t going to change based on the name of the person who is reading them… However, I believe that God still guides us and directs in areas where we have uncertainty if we only ask and expect to get a response…Many of us still don’t have eyes to see nor ears to hear which seems to have been a problem for some time… James says that wisdom is available for the asking…I wonder how many really believe that…
6. Brad says:

   September 3, 2011 at 9:34 am

   When we have to turn to ‘we don’t know what people are doing when we can’t see them’ as a reason to not draw conclusions about involvement we have actually judged ourselves. The Body of Christ is not an individual activity, but rather is a community event. There are certain characteristics that Christians should manifest 24/7, but the Church is not the Body unless every Christian is engaged.

   I think the involvement issue, while complex, comes down to a few things. First, when the works vs. grace argument started to come down on the grace side we mistook grace for ‘no obligations’ and didn’t have an involvement method to replace the coercion by guilt that the emphasis on works provided. Second, the program oriented nature of many of our churches has turned participation into a commercialized system that encourages involvement through WIIFM approaches and marketing. Third, we’ve totally failed on the discipleship aspect of spiritual development while emphasizing the rites into the Body (baptism, confession, et al) allowing people to define ‘being a Christian’ as ‘being baptized’ rather than ‘being a servant of God’.

   As for the book, it is in my bag to be read. Maybe I’ll have more comments then. 🙂
7. laymond says:

   September 3, 2011 at 9:37 am

   Doug, believe it or not preaching is not the only commitment in the church. Jesus said to Peter “feed my sheep” not enlarge my flock. Our responsibility begins when we leave the building.
   I have witnessed many good Christians gathered in a place that didn’t even have a tub of water present. That seems wrong to me, to judge someone on results of actions. If we do good works for those outside the church, simply to get them to join, we are working for wages, if we work out of love, we work by grace.
   Let me give you an example of misjudging someone Doug . the preacher came to me and said he could get my Granddaughter involved in church activities if she wanted, I said she doesn’t have time to get more involved. She tends the nursery at church on Sunday, she reads two days a week at nursing homes, she helps her mother deliver “meals on wheels” she tutors children who need it. He laughed, maybe we need to help her. There is plenty that needs doing other than baptizing people. Maybe if we were to get out in the community, we would run into them now and then.
8. Joe Baggett says:

   September 3, 2011 at 9:46 am

   http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Your-Churchs-Culture-Code/dp/0470627816

   Here is a book called “Cracking your churches culture code”. It should go hand in hand with the book Jay suggests in this post. Most churches are set up to where unless you fit into a Sunday school teacher, communion server, prayer leader, song leader or some other traditional service role you don’t have a place. It is true that no one will ever see what is done in secret. And some people are just private people they will never get involved in public ministry.

   The role of the elders is not to see that their flocks attend every time the church building doors are unlocked and are visibly participating in every institutional program. This method eventually leads to a coercive, vindictive and controlling atmosphere.

   Rather it is to serve as mentors in on going spiritual growth, empowerment, and commissioning. Just like the saying “think out of the box”, we must think outside the building. In the New Testament most of the spiritual growth, public and private service, and acts of kindness etcetera took place outside of the “worship service”.
   If you want to engage the 80% see what their lives are of spiritual growth are like. They may secretly serve in a soup kitchen down the street instead of leading a VBS. Conduct a survey and match the programs, worship formats etcetera to the spiritual growth needs and gifts of the congregation. Do not discourage private service and involvement. In fact recognize and encourage it.
   Finally the other 80% is usually disengaged partly because church and its programs are BORING! Many churches are doing the same things in the same way forever. The preaching is boring, there are no reflections over communion just a prayer, the songs are the same songs that have been sung for a long time and are sung in a way that is boring! The emerging generations hate boring not just in church but in schools and every part of life. The first reaction of many who read this post will be defense, but that just confirms the problem. Read the books carefully please.
9. Bob Brandon says:

   September 3, 2011 at 9:52 am

   Congregational activity is not what should define involvement. We, as Christians, should be spiritual in all aspects of life, but congregational life clearly is not the foremost aspect in all lives. I’m much more engaged with my faith – with all the fears and frustrations in the face of injustice – in my legal practice as a public defender than anything I am involved with under congregational auspices. I’m much more challenged to grow outside than inside the congregation.
10. Jerry Starling says:

    September 3, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Joe,
    Your last paragraph is telling – and disheartening. It is disheartening because it is so true, and it also disheartens the people who are bored. It’s not just the people who do not love the Lord who are bored either! Many who are really wanting worship to be stimulating (and I do not mean rank emotionalism, which is what the defensive will say we must avoid at all costs!), are among the bored. Many continue to attend and participate – because they do not know any other way.

    Unfortunately, when someone tries to introduce some other way, they meet strong objections, as if a new way of doing the old things somehow makes them wrong. I have frequently observed this in my 50 years of ministry.
11. Jerry Starling says:

    September 3, 2011 at 10:01 am

    Price,
    Of course you are correct in saying we need prayer for wisdom. God does still act. My point was that we are not likely to see His leading into some specific activity we are not doing if we are unwilling to make an attempt to do what He clearly instructs us to do in His Word.

    Again, I’ve observed that it is easier to lead and guide someone who is attempting to follow than one who is rebelling. Damascus Road experiences are indeed rare.
12. Jerry Starling says:

    September 3, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Laymond,
    You are absolutely right about our needing to get out of our buildings and into the homes and lives of our people. Until we do that, we are not functioning as the body of Christ. We are more like a religious club.
13. David P Himes says:

    September 3, 2011 at 10:33 am

    Perhaps it’s my own perverted view of things … but I’ve come to see the role of assemblies as “respites” from the world, where we should be spending the rest of our time living the example of Jesus in full view of others — loving them, the way Jesus loves us.

    Per se, “being involved in ‘church’ activities” is not a truly relevant measure.

    Our assemblies should be encouraging in such a way that we inspire each other to continue to love one another.
14. Doug says:

    September 3, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    Laymond,

    I knew that if we just kept communicating that we’d finally find something that we agree upon. There’s more than one way to bring people to a saving knowlege of Jesus and while the foolishness of preaching is a very necessary action, so is just showing people that you care for them. Sometime that care and love is the ONLY way to break through and show others what Christians are really like. Sounds like your grandaughter is off to a wonderful life of service… good for her!
15. Doug says:

    September 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    I meant to add to my last post that showing people love and care WILLalso result in keeping the baptisimal tank busy. In this day and time, it may be as good as preaching.
16. JMF says:

    September 3, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    Laymond —

    I think what Doug is saying is that he really appreciates what the Spirit led you to write in your last post. 🙂

    (Doug, I’m not sure how long you were wanting a truce with Laymond, but my preceding sentence will rile him for you. 🙂 )

    (all in fun, of course)
17. laymond says:

    September 3, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    JMF you are right, my spirit leads my hands to write,it leads my soul to God, It also leads me to teach my grandchildren the meaning of being a Christian.
18. abasnar says:

    September 4, 2011 at 6:12 am

    If I got the summary right it is mainly about church attendance – but this alone does not make one an active member in the church. My text today is Eph 4:11-16:

    Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
    Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
    Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
    Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
    Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
    Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

    I change the wording slightly from “work of ministry” to “job of serving” – we all have a job to do, like being emplyed in a company, we are hired by Christ for His Kingdom.

    This is the motto of our 2011/2012 season, and we plan to focus in our teachings on three arieas of service: Evangelism, Hospitality and visiting the sick. It is my hope that we not only speak about these, but equip and train and make it a discipline of our lives to do all of this regularly. Therefore we made a theme for the whole season: Not that we just hear and forget, but that we hear, repeat, share our experiences in doing it, make progress … make it a habit.

    Alexander
19. Jerry Starling says:

    September 4, 2011 at 7:09 am

    Alexander,

    Very good, practical things you are setting as your goal for this year! Would that all of God’s congregations were this focused on developing habits of service in their members!

    My experience with Christians in Europe is that they are much more committed to service in their communities than most congregations in America – to our shame. Too many times we are more interested in exporting the debates and issues du jure than in teaching the pure gospel of Jesus.
20. Paula says:

    September 6, 2011 at 10:40 am

    I just recently concluded a 17-year committment with the Int’l Churches of Christ. Some of you may know that this denomination practices a heavy emphasis on commitment to the body of Christ. To demonstrate your committment, you have to ‘seek first the kingdom’ and attend every meeting of the body. At times this is the equivalent of 3-4 meetings a week. Also, every person you met in public was a potential visitor, study, or baptism. And if they weren’t interested, we were to dust off our sandals. I shouldn’t say ‘we,’ as this was not my practice. And thank God it wasn’t. One of my new friends wanted to make Jesus her Lord and be baptized after 1 1/2 yrs and another friend wanted to do the same after 6 years of friendship. Only God knows where they would be if I had shook the dust off my sandals. This mindset bothered me for years, so I just continued to set the example for others. My prayer when I moved to my new city and state was to find a body of Christ that wanted to touch the people of the community with Jesus’ love and just do it for love’s sake and not be focused on numbers, visitors, or baptisms. God answered my prayer. It was a church planting and we started out with 4 in attendance and now have about 20 in attendance. All we did was get the word out and advertise “this is who we are and what we are about.” The growth results have been from God moving people to be a part of a congregation like this. Only God gets the glory. Like other commentors above, I too look forward to getting a copy of this book.

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