New wine
(Act 2:12-13 ESV) 12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
Don’t you love Luke’s sense of humor? Remember, this is volume 2 of Luke-Acts. And Luke includes —
(Luk 5:36-39 ESV) 36 He also told them a parable: “No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.'”
The disciples were filled with new wine! Just not the kind of wine the listeners expected.
Why would the crowds have thought they were filled with wine? What made them appear drunk?
Many commentators speculate that it’s due to the foreign languages being spoken (or heard), but Jerusalem was a very cosmopolitan city. There were people there from across the Empire, and so hearing strange languages would be expected — but not from uneducated Galileans. Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Egyptian would have been everyday languages in Judea’s capital. And with a city filled with pilgrims, foreign languages would hardly be surprising.
So my theory is that the 120 were Jews living in First Century Palestine. They’d been waiting for God to act, and when he acted, he poured out his Spirit — and they recognized it for what it was: the end of the Exile and the coming of the Kingdom! They celebrated! How could they not? They probably sang. They danced. They clapped. They shouted. The slapped each other on the back. They hugged strangers. They reveled in one of the greatest moment in history!
[Contemporary Shavuot dance in Israel. The Pentecost of the apostles would have been a celebration far beyond this.]
Not only that, but the coming of the Spirit meant that Jesus really is still alive in heaven. Surely they’d had some doubts — but not now. They went nuts!
If you doubt me, attend an Alabama-Auburn football game and watch how bankers and lawyers act when their team scores a touchdown. And we live in a culture where emotion is not freely expressed. And yet strangers hug strangers over a touchdown. Now, imagine Middle Easterners being present at the outpouring of the Spirit, marking the beginning of a new covenant with God, promised for thousands of years.
(Act 2:14-15 ESV) 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
“Third hour” means 9:00 a.m. (roughly) and also the time of the morning sacrifice. Peter doesn’t say they aren’t acting drunk, but that their behavior is from a source other than wine. Nobody gets drunk on wine this early in the morning!
The Spirit
(Act 2:16-21 ESV) 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'”
Joel (and other prophets) had prophesied that the end of the Exile and coming of the Kingdom would be marked by the outpouring of the Spirit. A handful of people had received the Spirit in Old Testament times — Moses, the judges, the prophets, kings, prophets, and a handful of others. But most of God’s people did not receive the Spirit.
Moreover, the Spirit had left Israel after the close of the Old Testament. There were no prophets between the testaments until John the Baptist. The Jews therefore prayed earnestly for the coming of the Spirit.
(Luk 11:5-13 ESV) 5 And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Jesus’ teaching on constancy in prayer is finally about prayer for the Holy Spirit! Why? All Christians have the Spirit! True, but when Jesus was speaking, the Jews were praying for the Spirit and the Kingdom and the Messiah. And Jesus assured them that their prayers would be answered.
All flesh
The promise that the Spirit would be poured on all flesh would not fulfilled until Cornelius. But the immediate implication is that the Spirit is available for everyone in the crowd — Jews from every nation. Not just leaders. Not just priests or scholars or Pharisees –but also for every Jew with faith.
Sons and daughters
There had been a few women to receive the Spirit in the Old Testament: Deborah, Huldah, and a few others. But the Spirit has largely been on men. Joel’s prophecy would have meant little unless women were to receive the same empowerment and gifts as men. Otherwise, women would receive a less generous portion than men, just as in the Old Testament. No, the promise is for change, the full inclusion of women in the Spirit’s gifts.
Salvation
Joel said that “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Paul quotes the same passage —
(Rom 10:11-13 ESV) 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Paul’s take is that “the Lord” refers to Jesus or, more subtly, that you can’t deny one and call on the other.
Jerusalem
Why Jerusalem? Well, Peter cut off the end of the prophecy, although it would have been well known to his listeners —
(Joe 2:32b ESV) For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
In other words, only a remnant will escape God’s judgment. Not all will call on the name of the Lord, and so only some will be those whom the LORD calls. And it will happen in Jerusalem.
Blood, fire, vapor of smoke, the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood
Where are these signs? Luke doesn’t mention them, and the audience doesn’t seem perplexed that the sun is still shining. They could have been thinking of the darkened sun at the crucifixion, but they were more likely just familiar with the prophets —
(Mic 3:5-7 ESV) 5 Thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry “Peace” when they have something to eat, but declare war against him who puts nothing into their mouths. 6 Therefore it shall be night to you, without vision, and darkness to you, without divination. The sun shall go down on the prophets, and the day shall be black over them; 7 the seers shall be disgraced, and the diviners put to shame; they shall all cover their lips, for there is no answer from God.
(Amo 8:7-9 ESV) 7 The LORD has sworn by the pride of Jacob: “Surely I will never forget any of their deeds. 8 Shall not the land tremble on this account, and everyone mourn who dwells in it, and all of it rise like the Nile, and be tossed about and sink again, like the Nile of Egypt?” 9 “And on that day,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.
(Isa 50:2-3 ESV) 2 Why, when I came, was there no man; why, when I called, was there no one to answer? Is my hand shortened, that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver? Behold, by my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a desert; their fish stink for lack of water and die of thirst. 3 I clothe the heavens with blackness and make sackcloth their covering.”
(Hos 13:2-3 ESV) 2 And now they sin more and more, and make for themselves metal images, idols skillfully made of their silver, all of them the work of craftsmen. It is said of them, “Those who offer human sacrifice kiss calves!” 3 Therefore they shall be like the morning mist or like the dew that goes early away, like the chaff that swirls from the threshing floor or like smoke [vapor] from a window.
Joel’s language is the metaphoric language of the prophets for a very angry God coming in judgment. Indeed, it’s often the language for the destruction of a nation. Therefore, Joel is saying not only that God will pour out his Spirit, bringing salvation, but that those who reject his salvation — who don’t call on the name of the Lord — will be destroyed by God — by the same God who can darken the sun and melt the moon.
“So my theory is that the 120 were Jews living in First Century Palestine. They’d been waiting for God to act, and when he acted, he poured out his Spirit — and they recognized it for what it was”
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: ( “ALL FLESH” ) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Jay if the event you are speaking of is truly this event, then God missed, “ALL FLESH” was not affected.surely the stander-bys were made of “flesh” also.
Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
I do not see anything baffeling, or unexplained, in the very beginning of Luke’s writing (called acts) It is plain to me that Luke is speaking of the Apostles chosen by Jesus. It is plain to me that according to Luke Jesus said, ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: still speaking of the “chosen apostles” as far as I can determine and we might say that Peter thought it urgent business to replace the fallen apostle, so he would recieve the “powers” in order to take his place in Jesus’ ministry and apostleship.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. :24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
So when we start referring to eleven apostles recieving the “power” arn’t we forgetting Matthias, for whom Peter was in such a rush to get confermed.
Jay it is hard for me to accept your theory, of the 120, when Luke says there were twelve.
I appreciate this all-too-obvious observation that Jay makes, that the ability to speak in Greek or Latin or Arabic would not cause an outside observer to think you were drunk. But ecstatic celebration would have.
As to laymond arguing for a limit of twelve, he needs to wedge Paul in there somewhere. This is awkward, like trying Photoshop an absent guest into a wedding picture. If this outpouring was limited to nominative “apostles”, laymond can form an argument; but scripture and elementary logic find that position is as full of holes as a sieve. But if the limit was “twelve”, the math just doesn’t work, scripture or no scripture. Unless there was a miraculous changing of the number twelve to include thirteen people. Didn’t read about that one. And if God could call and empower another apostle later, why not two– or two thousand? There are certainly more than 13 apostles mentioned in scripture. Again, I see the inference of exclusive language in laymond’s arguments where no ground for such inference exists.
No, Jay’s assessment of the pronouns and antecedents in this passage makes the most plain sense, and has only tradition to offer any real contradiction.
As a person who has seen this from both sides, I think one of the problems is that some believers simply cannot fathom expressions of celebration about Jesus such as they would offer about a Trent Richardson touchdown.
Lamond
i was taught exactly like you,
and teach that
although
i know that the apostles because of their special relationship with the lord received a gift of the Spirit according to the office the name implies.
i can stand on that.
now if there were 120 there including the apostles to me doesn’t matter the Spirit would give a gift or gifts according to his will.
eph.4
only 12 though would receive the measure of what an apostle was told by the lord that each of them would receive.
that is a sound (to me) way to skirt that issue.
rather than going into the antecedent of the pronoun they.
which can cause device that really draws away from that special long awaited day.
blessings Lamond
hopefully that might be a new perspective for you.
🙂
rich
Charles, I see that you didn’t bother to read, acts 1-20 “and his (Judas Iscariot) bishoprick let another take”. or acts 1: 23–26 where this happened. If as you say all believers recieved the “holy ghost” what was the hurry to seat Matthias ?
(That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship,)
(, he needs to wedge Paul in there somewhere. )
Are you saying Paul’s experince happened before Jesus assended. or before the apostles recieved the “holy ghost’ I don’t read it that way. Please explain why Paul would have to be “wedged in”
Laymond,
You are following a theory about the baptism in the Holy Spirit that ignores two pertinent passages, one early in Luke/Acts and one from the pen of Paul.
John’s prophecy of baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire was spoke to “them all” – both those coming to be baptized by him and those who were refusing his message of repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins. All were to receive either baptism in the Holy Spirit or baptism in the unquenchable fire. Every person would accept the Messianic blessing – or would receive the Messianic curse.
Paul, writing to the divided Corinthian church, referenced the universality of the gift of the Spirit when he said “in one Spirit we were all baptized, into one body.” This language is reminiscent of John’s statement to “them all” that the coming one would baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, except that Paul does not speak in this text concerning those who refuse the gracious offer of God in Christ. Those who have received that offer, Paul says, are all baptized in one Spirit into one body.
The theory that only the apostles “received the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit” depends on two words in the KJV that are not in the Greek text at all – and are so indicated by italics in the KJV. This is in John 3:34 where John wrote:
The KJV adds the words unto him. On these two non-existent words we have constructed the entire theory of varying “measures” of the Holy Spirit – as if He could be measured out like a gallon or a quart of water!
In 1 Cor 12, Paul recognizes different gifts from the one Spirit – but says all who have these different gifts of the same Spirit have been baptized into that one Spirit.
Jerry said,”John’s prophecy of baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire was spoke to “them all” – both those coming to be baptized by him and those who were refusing his message of repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins”
Jerry I have absolutly no problem with that, either we are going to heaven or not.( baptized by the spirit or fire.)
I don’t see what that has to do with the “holy spirit” powers of God, given to the apostles at pentecost. or the unlimited powers given to Jesus at his baptism. I don’t see anywhere these unlimited powers are promised to anyone except Jesus’ chosen apostels. And yes Matthias, was a chosen apostle.I am pretty sure you would argue the same thing about Paul, but are you ready to argue that Paul recieved those powers at Pentecost. I don’t think so.
John 3:34, the phrase, “he whom God hath sent” pretty much tells the same story without the addition. How many Sons of God were sent to represent The Father?
Who has argued that Paul’s apostolic powers were given at Pentecost? Certainly not I!
My point from John 3:34 is that neither God nor Jesus gives the Spirit by measure.
Yet, based on the KJV addition, we constructed a very flimsy case for varying “measures” of the Spirit: without measure to Jesus, baptismal measure to the apostles, miraculous measure to others, and the indwelling measure to all who are baptized in His name.
The logic has been that if God does not give the Spirit by measure unto him, He must give it by measure to others. Then we went looking for what those varying measures might be.
This totally disregards what John wrote to construct a theory out of words that John never wrote, not out of Scripture.
Jerry
Laymond, I have no issue with Matthias taking Judas’ place. I did read it, I just have no disagreement over it. You asked me, “Are you saying Paul’s experince happened before Jesus assended. or before the apostles recieved the “holy ghost’ I don’t read it that way. Please explain why Paul would have to be “wedged in”
>>>
First, nothing in scripture says that the ascension, or Jesus’ breathing on the Eleven constituted some sort of line of demarcation regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or some sort of divider concerning apostleship. I don’t see how any such “before-and-after” timing would make any difference at all. The idea is completely absent from scripture. So I am not “saying” anything about it at all. Please don’t ask me to explain ideas that are yours and not mine. I have a hard enough time expressing my own thoughts clearly.
I suggested that you would have to find a way to “wedge Paul in” if you are to reconcile him with the interpretation of scripture you offered here. You suggested that the Holy Spirit was given to only twelve people– the apostles– and you claimed Luke as authority for this. Here is the math: 12 less Judas plus Matthias plus Paul equals thirteen. I didn’t come up with your interpretation, I just ran the numbers on it and found that they did not add up.
The numbers contradict the interpretation. I am more inclined to doubt your interpretation than to assume that 12=13. Jay has made other, more reasoned arguments with which I agree, but in this case I just stuck to grade school math.
What are “apostolic powers”? Are they like x-ray vision and leaping tall buildings? I understand supernatural events, but I don’t find any biblical reference to “powers” exclusive to apostles. Where does this come from?
Oh, and what’s this idea that Jesus was given “unlimited powers” at his baptism? I have heard lots of extrabibilcal theories, but this one I confess I never heard before. Jesus sure never mentioned this…
Charles asked, What are “apostolic powers”? Where does this come from? How about the writings of Luke.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Charles, unless you believe God had limited powers, how can you believe Jesus had limited power.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure
“The numbers contradict the interpretation. I am more inclined to doubt your interpretation than to assume that 12=13.”
Charles since there were 12 apostles chosen by Jesus, and one fell by the wayside, and was replaced by another, seems the total would be 12 at the time of pentecost.
Since pentecost was the occasion, in question here, and as far as I recall Paul had not arrived on the scene as of that time, there was no way I could wedge him into that room with the Twelve.
From Titus 3, Paul did have the Holy Spirit “poured out” on him, which is at the very least, reminicent of what the 12 or 120 had on Pentecost.. But, the “us” upon whom the Spirit was poured, most certainly means all believers.
signs wonders by apostles at least according to Paul.
SOUNDS LIKE TO ME THERE ARE A CUPPLE OF GUYS BEATING A DEAD HORSE OF ONTOLOGY
Charles AND Lammond.
YES? 🙂
2Co12:11
I am become foolish: ye compelled me; for I ought to have been commended of you:
for in nothing was I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I am nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, by signs and wonders and mighty works.
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord,
was confirmed unto us by them that heard;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Ghost,
according to his own will.
2Co 11:5 For I reckon that I am not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2Co 11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet am I not in knowledge; nay, in everything we have made it manifest among all men to you–ward.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, by signs and wonders and mighty works.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord,
was confirmed
unto us
by them that heard;
WHO IS THE US… AND THEM…. IN HEB 2:3,4.
Heb 2:4 God also bearing witness with them
, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will.
to say nothing of acts,10 and 11WHERE THE WAS POURED OUT AGAIN ON ALL FLESH.
THE US AND THEM AND WE NOW HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OF THIS
STUFF
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, even as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?
LAMOND/Charles
ME THINKEST YOU GOT YOURSELF 2 STRAW DOGS!!
BLESSINGS
RICH
Paul was somehow inferior in power to the other Apostles ?? Seriously…in what regard ?
Jerry,
You make a good point. The KJV reads,
The translators inserted “unto him” into the text to avoid the more natural reading that God gives the Spirit without measure more generally.
More recent translations read,
John the Baptist was asked about Jesus by his disciples. John could see that Jesus is the Messiah, not only by his baptism but by the Spirit that was on him. John could read the signs and so could see that God was preparing to pour out the Spirit as promised by the prophets. The miracles of Jesus — the Messiah — would be but a foretaste of the outpouring that was to come!
In short, “without measure” sees the beginning of the outpouring of the Spirit in Jesus, and anticipates the greater outpouring at Pentecost on all who would come to God. No limit.
Jay,
My point comes to me via Richard Rogers when I studied under him at the Sunset School of Preaching, as does much of my understanding of the Holy Spirit.
Jerry
[deleted]
I have a question of you scholars who have a lot more bible study (and better understanding) than myself. Are the following events different events, or the same event told differently? If they are the same event, which garners more creditability with you and why?
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:—
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them—
Laymond…are you saying that in order for the Word of God to be infallible that the persons who translated it into English, or German, or Latin….had to be themselves infallible ?? Surely not… Humans make mistakes regardless of how much study and effort we put in… We are capable however of recognizing, admitting and correcting our mistakes. Perhaps it is because we recognize from the very beginning that we are NOT infallible.. I think that this might be substantiated by the existence of a NKJV…:)
Laymond, re your question at 10:14 am above.
The event in John 20 took place one week after Jesus’ resurrection.
The event in Acts 2 took place fifty days after the resurrection on Pentecost. By this time, Jesus had already ascended into heaven and poured out the Spirit from there.
Jerry
Jerry, if the apostles along with everyone else recieved the Holy Ghost (here)
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
What happened (here)
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Laymond,
The policy is that I don’t allow challenges to the inspiration of the scriptures here. If you violate the policy again, you’ll be moderated.
Laymond,
These are obviously events separated in time. The record in John does not say that then and there received the Spirit. In fact, John himself says in John 7:39 that the Spirit would not be given until Jesus was glorified, that is, taken to heaven. Therefore, in context, in John 20, Jesus is not immediately giving the Spirit but symbolically (“breath” and “Spirit” are the same Greek word) anticipating what was to come. Nothing in John 20 says that the Spirit arrived at that moment.
The other view, held by many, is that the apostles received one gift at John 20, likely salvation by the work of the Spirit, and another in Acts 2, such as the gift of tongues. But neither text is speaking in those terms. The Spirit was not outpoured until Acts 2, and even John says the Spirit’s coming would be after the glorification of Jesus. Therefore, I take John 20:22 to be anticipatory, promising the apostles the Spirit to come.
I am still looking for a simple straightforward explanation of “apostolic powers”. Power was promised as a result of the action of the Holy Spirit. But this idea of some sort of independent personal “powers” enjoyed by a handful of men is not NT, but Marvel and DC.
The fact that signs and wonders followed the believers is a fulfillment of Jesus’ promise in Mark 16. Nothing complex here. So, when did such signs and wonders become limited ONLY to the apostles? Apparently Stephen and Philip did just such wonders. So, do we add them to the 11-12-13? No mention of either man as an “apostle”. All this history fits fine with a general fulfillment of Jesus’ words. It is only when we start trying to invent these latter-day limiting delineations that the concepts begin to be inconsistent with scriptures.
David, I appreciate the way you describe Paul receiving the Holy Spirit in the context of believers receiving the Spirit, rather than as some sort of “apostolic event”. This is important. Some who read Acts tend to attribute anything which is done by or happens to the apostles as being a function of their calling in the Body. When Paul receives the Holy Spirit, it is not because he is a believer, but because he is an apostle. When Peter raises Dorcas from the dead, it is not because of the Holy Spirit, but because of his mysterious “apostolic powers”. Same with Paul’s snakebite; it was an apostolic snakebite, and not related to a statement made by Jesus about believers generally.
When we take the apostles and make them into what is a different class of being than we, that makes room for us to set aside much of what we might learn from their lives. They become superheroes, their experiences recorded for our amazement, but having no particular personal connection to us who are not, as Paul sarcastically called them, one of the “super-apostles”.
Jerrry, Jay, are you saying that the event in acts 2 is what is spoken of in Jhn 14:26 and that all believers participated .
Or are you saying that Acts 2 does not pretain to the “comforter” at all.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
If it is right that Jesus made the promise in Jhn 14:26, and only carried it out (symbolicaly) in Jhn 20:22, does not alter the fact that in both instances the only people present were the apostles.(the number does not matter) So if acts 2 is the full and final inactment, why would any other than the apostles participate.?
Laymond wrote: “If it is right that Jesus made the promise in Jhn 14:26, and only carried it out (symbolicaly) in Jhn 20:22, does not alter the fact that in both instances the only people present were the apostles.(the number does not matter) So if acts 2 is the full and final inactment, why would any other than the apostles participate.?”
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Ah, NOW the number is unimportant. Funny how when we cannot support our previously-adamant contentions, those contentions suddenly become “unimportant”. This prevents us from admitting that we were simply wrong. We insist that 2+2=5, and when someone else says, “No, 2+2 really equals 4,” we reply, “Who cares?”
It would take some time to point out all the flaws in the rest of the paragraph, but I will satisfy myself at this point with noting that Laymond’s reasoning leaves us with the very reality which Paul himself disawowed. It suggests a class of “super-apostles” — the ones who were called pre-Pentecost– as opposed to the second class of later, lesser apostles in which group Paul apparently found himself categorized. He suggested to the Corinthians that this was all nonsense. I agree.
Charles, John 14:26 we know Judas was not present, it seems that left eleven in attendance.
Jhn 13:30 He (Judas) then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
We also know that Thomas was not in attendance (Jhn 20:22) when Jesus breathed upon them, so minus Judas and, Thomas 12-2 = 10 in attendance.
But in Acts 2, it seems Judas had been replaced, and there is no mention of Thomas being absent, and I just take their word they were all there.
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
I take this to mean all 12 apostles were in attendance.and since the event on pentecost was the subject here? if you have other evidence they were not there, I am open to learn.
what I was saying to Jay was the number in attendance in Jhn 14:26, and Jhn 20:22, did not matter the fact that they were apostles did.
Jay said, “The record in John does not say that then and there received the Spirit. In fact, John himself says in John 7:39 that the Spirit would not be given until Jesus was glorified, that is, taken to heaven. Therefore, in context, in John 20, Jesus is not immediately giving the Spirit but symbolically”
Jhn 13:30 He (Judas ) then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Jhn 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Jhn 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Is this just another flaw in the KJV- I don’t believe so.
NIV : If God is glorified in him,* God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once
Does at once mean fifty days later or now.?
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
( does this sound a little to familiar to have been symbolic?)
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Charles McLean, on December 11th, 2011 at 6:42 pm Said:
I am still looking for a simple straightforward explanation of “apostolic powers
try this link>>>
http://www.versebyverseministry.org/resource_library/questions_and_answers/apostolic_powers_today/
Laymond, thanks for the link. It is nothing new. No more than a rehash of the same unproven assumptions used to draw specious conclusions using leaky and unspiritual hermeneutics presented as truth. It’s easy to write such foolishness when there is no one there to ask questions which point out the bad reasoning, undefined terms, logical inconsistencies, and the reverse-engineering of scripture to fit personal experience. I have done this when such is posted here. For me to answer a third party is redundant. This fellow apparently has no power and is excusing this by claiming that nobody does… all while others continue to walk in the supernatural right down the street from him.
Nope, no answer here. And since the writer is not available to answer my questions, it’s not possible to get to an answer.
I’m sorry Charles, I didn’t know you were looking for something “new” or I wouldn’t have recommended this two thousand year old stuff.
Would that such an idea were that old, my brother. Methinks someone has sold you wine of a much more recent vintage with a ginned-up label claiming to be a wine of much more age and character. But, it IS hard to tell by the label. However, when this particular bottle is uncorked, it’s quite easy to tell that it’s not the good stuff. One taste is enough.
Laymond,
Jesus, and many others, use a figure of speech called “prolepsis” — using the present tense to refer to a future event. It’s a common feature of Jesus’ final discourse beginning in John 13.
One of several examples is —
(Joh 13:31-32 ESV) 31 When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once.
Compare John 12:23;16:14; 17:1,5, which speak of Jesus being glorified in the future.
“Glorified” refers to the presence of God. It’s an OT allusion to the “glory” or Shekinah of God, which is the glowing presence around him.
Thus, to be glorified is to be called into God’s presence.
Now, “glorify” is also used to ascribe glory to God, but to be glorified is to be taken into God’s presence.
Thanks Jay, but how do you know Jesus had not been in the presents of God, before he breathed upon the apostles? I don’t form opinions without substantial evidence.
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Now let’s look at what happened a mere eight days later.
Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
Now look at what Jesus said to Thomas.
Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
He did not warn Thomas as he did Mary. why do you think that was.?I believe this could be construed as evidence he had ascended unto God
Jay of course you are right about the scripture you referenced John 12:23;16:14; 17:1,5, speaking the glorification of Jesus in the future.
Jhn 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
ESV
And Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
ESV
He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
All these things were said before the cross, including 17, 1-5 . so yes they were all speaking of the future, the very near future.
But ch 20 refers to after the resurrection, a whole new day. (the last days)
I have looked for, and have yet to find, a commentary on the distinction that the prophet Joel makes for young men seeing visions and old men dreaming dreams. Is there a difference between a dream and a vision in this context? I would think that since the distinction is made, probably so, unless it is a poetic use of prose. So what is the difference, and why is it that the young get visions, while the old get dreams? I am no student of the original language of the text, which may provide the answer, but I look at a vision as something anticipated. Something you expect to take part in seeing fulfilled. A prophecy of an imminent expectation. A dream may be a loftier or longer term expectation, as in a pipe dream. Maybe the older ones have the ability to see things from a deeper, longer term perspective. Maybe they are looking to generations beyond their own. Maybe I am just trying to read too much into this.
Mark asked,
I think it’s an example of Hebrew parallelism. In fact, most modern translations show the passage in Joel that Peter quotes as poetry. Hence, “visions” and “dreams” are parallels in very typical Hebraic style.
Therefore, Joel would tell us that they are the same thing or so close to the same thing that the difference is unimportant. Compare —
I doubt that Joel meant any great difference between “wonders” and “signs.”