This passage has been controversial in the Churches of Christ for many years. One hundred years ago, the Churches split into two camps, called the Texas and the Tennessee camps by John Mark Hicks and Bobby Valentine.
The Texas camp was championed by Austin McGary, who took a nearly deistic view of God and denied a personal indwelling of the Spirit. He could take considerable comfort in a number of statements by Alexander Campbell that substantially agree.
However, Barton W. Stone and Robert Richardson, who followed Campbell as editor of the Millennial Harbinger, both accepted a personal indwelling, and so gave rise to the Tennessee camp.
By 1950, the Texas school of thought had come to dominate the Churches of Christ (with Foy Wallace Jr. having had a major role in the shift), and this remained true until the 1970s.
I believe the personal indwelling is the majority view today, but the near-deistic view that the Spirit works only through the word dwelling in the heart continues to have many adherents.
Both the grammar and historical context of Acts 2:38 strongly argue that “gift of the Holy Spirit” is in fact the Holy Spirit — as in “a gift of candy” — rather than a “gift given by the Holy Spirit.” Follow the text with me.
First, John the Baptist declares that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16).
Second, Jesus reminds the apostles of this shortly before his Ascension (Acts 1:5).
Third, on Pentecost, the apostles were “filled with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:4).
Fourth, the crowd was “amazed and perplexed” (Acts 2:12).
Fifth, Peter explains what is happening by quoting Joel: ” I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy” (Act 2:18).
Sixth, Peter summarizes his lesson with —
(Act 2:33 ESV) 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Clearly, what the audience was seeing and hearing — “this” is the “promise of the Holy Spirit,” which was poured out. And because it is the Spirit who was being poured out (which we know from Joel and other prophets), we know “promise of the Spirit” is the Spirit.
Seventh, “gift of the Holy Spirit” therefore refers to its parallel, “promise of the Holy Spirit,” that is, the Spirit himself.
Some argue that the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is salvation, but forgiveness of sins is a separate promise promised earlier in Acts 2:38. Rather, grammatically, the gift of the Spirit follows forgiveness of sins.
Indeed, we must take Pentecost as the fulfillment of —
(Luk 11:11-13 ESV) 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Here Jesus refers to the Spirit as a “gift” from God. Also parallel are —
(Act 8:20 ESV) But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Peter was rebuking Simon, who was asking for the indwelling Spirit.
(Act 10:45 ESV) And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Luke again refers to the Spirit as being outpoured, referring back to such prophets as Joel, who promised that the Spirit would be outpoured.
(John 4:10 ESV) Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
“The gift of God” is Living Water, which is plainly a reference to the Spirit (John 7:37-39).
In fact, to anyone familiar with the prophecies regarding the Spirit, the meaning is obvious.
Was the gift miraculous?
So, to me, whether the “gift of the Spirit” is the Spirit himself is not even an interesting question. It’s obvious if you’ve studied the historical and literary context. No, to me, the harder question is whether Peter was promising the gift of prophecy as well.
You see, Peter had just quoted Joel, which explicitly promises the gift of prophecy. And he and the rest of the original 120 were prophesying! And so a natural reading of the promise would be that those receiving the Spirit would get to prophesy. But is that right?
It seems clearly not to be the case —
(Act 2:43 ESV) 43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.
The “wonders” and “signs” were only through the apostles at this point, even though we certainly know that others were given miraculous abilities later. Therefore, I think it’s a mistake to imagine that it’s normal for converts to speak in tongues or prophesy immediately upon baptism, although we see examples of just that later in Acts.
I mean, if all 3,000 started to prophesy immediately upon baptism, that would have been a major event and surely would have been recorded.
Questions:
- The idea of word-only indwelling will be foreign to many of our members but something others wrestle with nearly daily, as the doctrine was pounded hard by Church publications back in the 1970s. Do you find it hard to believe in a personal indwelling?
- Does anyone have a story or experience that demonstrates the reality of a personal indwelling?
- Why is the personal indwelling important? Why isn’t it good enough that we can read the Bible and obey?
- Several places we run into parallels between the Kingdom and Exodus. Can you think of other examples? (“Redeem” means to be freed from slavery. We often think of “Zion” as symbolizing heaven. The church and Israel are both called the ekklesia. The indwelling of the Spirit is taken from God’s dwelling within Israel via the tabernacle.)
- How does “Kingdom” means something different from “church”? What does “Kingdom” tell you about Christianity?
Frequently we find that two different leaders in our church independently start to teach on the same topic, preparing very complementary lessons, without ever having communicated with each other about it. Each one got his lesson from scripture, but I believe each was led by the spirit to address that topic. It happens far too often for me to think it is coincidence.
Acts 2:38 cannot be speaking of the scriptures as the gift, because the scriptures are not given at baptism. They are preached prior to baptism, both to those who will be baptized and to those who will not be baptized. The gift of Acts 2:38 is given to those who repent and are baptized.
Jay, my conclusion is that the “gifts” aren’t really for you to “own.” They seem to be temporary in nature… to be used by God through you… Paul could heal sometimes yet had to recommend wine at other times… He had companions that he was worried might die… why would that be if he had the gift of healing to use at his own personal discretion…
I believe God empowers for the moment… Yes, He indwells us…that’s clear…But, whether or not we receive an ability to do something for someone else (to my knowledge none of the “gifts” are designed to necessarily be self-beneficial) is up to the Spirit… Furthermore, if we have the Spirit indwelling us, we have ALL the gifts available to us but only at the discretion of the Spirit Himself… What can God not do through us who would allow Him if He wanted to do it ??
Thank you Jay, we still have alot of Churches in rural Texas who are word only. It does seems that they are becoming smaller in size, I see this as God giving the increase and not the understanding of men.
“Some argue that the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is salvation, but ——.”
I take it that “but” means “not so”.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
I guess it all depends on who you see as the “Holy Spirit”.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: ———-.
Lev 11:44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: ————.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Since God is spirit, and God is holy, it follows , to me at least that God the Father is the Holy Spirit. and Romans 6:23 said “the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ” I believe “eternal life” is the same as “salvation” .
A couple of comments on Jay’s post, if I may. Jay said, “The “wonders” and “signs” were only through the apostles at this point, even though we certainly know that others were given miraculous abilities later. Therefore, I think it’s a mistake to imagine that it’s normal for converts to speak in tongues or prophesy immediately upon baptism, although we see examples of just that later in Acts.”
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The assumption of exclusive language here (only the apostles) is just that. Splitting the receipt of “signs” between the 12 and the other 108 does not seem justified by the language here. Tongues are specifically described by Paul as a “sign” to unbelievers, so limiting signs to the 12 is problematic.
As to what is “normal”, I think this terminology may not be the best. (It seems to break our experiences into “normal” and “abnormal”, which is not what I think you intended.) I may be splitting hairs here, but I would say that scripture does not teach that every believer will speak in tongues or prophesy upon baptism, and leave it at that.
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Jay opined: “I mean, if all 3,000 started to prophesy immediately upon baptism, that would have been a major event and surely would have been recorded.”
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Actually, as major as this event was, nothing is recorded in scripture about the baptisms of the 3000 beyond the fact itself. Nothing. So presuming anything “surely” from that silence seems to me to be a bit of a thin reed.
I think we have a tendency to unconsiously have our own experiences as a tacit baseline, and work from there. If a believer spoke in tongues when he was baptized, he reads Acts and says, “Yeah, just like the bible says!” If a believer did not speak in tongues when he was baptized, he says, “The Bible does not say it has to happen that way.” Both are correct. The trick, it seems to me, is helping these brothers realize that the difference in their experiences does not separate them.
Actually folks to the extent that “being God’s people and having Him be our God” is a definition of salvation then the possession of the Spirit is salvation. We tend to view the forgiveness of sins as the salvation bit, but we are wrong. The forgiveness of sins is the preparation to receiving the Spirit and beginning a life with God.
In similar fashion the temple was built but had to be cleansed before use by means of sacrifice. But the cleansing was not the point of the temple, the cleansing was so the temple could BE the temple. The same is true of us. Our sin prevents us from having union with our Holy God. The blood of Jesus purifies us and removes that sin. The Spirit then enters us – but I do believe we must ask for it to do so – and we become the place where God’s mercy dwells.
Removal of sin is necessary for salvation, but it is not salvation. We require constant cleaning to remain the temple of God, but the cleansing is not the point of who we are. Being the place where God has caused His name to dwell is our eternal purpose individually and as the Church. To fulfill our eternal purpose is “salvation.”
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
God/ the Holy Spirit, dwells within the Christian through faith in Jesus Christ and his word.
Laymond offered: “Since God is spirit, and God is holy, it follows , to me at least that God the Father is the Holy Spirit.”
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I have no interest in opening the whole mystery of Trinity or not argument on this thread, but would note that Jesus said in John 14:16,17– “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.” This indicates the Father sending the Spirit to us at the Son’s request. This plain distinction among the disparate actions of three Persons seems to run counter to Laymond’s conclusion.
Jay, I may have missed this in an earlier post, but I’m wondering about your assertion that all 120 were prophesying. Acts 2:7 shows that the speakers were all Galileans (or so the crowd believed, at least). As you pointed out, verse 43 indicates that the signs and wonders seem to have been limited to the apostles (and this seems to be repeated in 4:33 and 5:12)
Not a big deal, but the evidence seems to point to the twelve doing the prophesying, not the 120.
I love the Triune God! Three seperate personalities one God. “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Rom 8:9 ESV). This makes the Spirit God both the Fathers and the Sons.
Tim… I have to agree with Charles that the passage really doesn’t address what the 3,000 did or did not do… the fact that it is recorded that the Apostles did something does not indicate whether the 3,000 or the rest of them did or did not do something… It would just be a guess which does not rise to the level of inspiration..
Looking at the Scripture, specifically in I Cor 12:28-31, I Cor 14:3, and Eph 4:12 we see that the lay members were in fact “gifted” to do all manner of things. Paul makes it quite clear that there is A) diversity of the gifts B) the purpose was to exhort, edify and comfort the individual and the church and C) equip the church members for the work of the ministry….. I find it difficult to find the logic in trying to dispel these gifts for today when it is so obvious that the church still needs help in the same manner that those early Christians did… Perhaps we don’t need the sun to stand still or a donkey to speak but surely it’s clear that we need the help of the Holy Spirit to guide us individually and corporately today… Instead of trying to provide a theological “out” for their obvious decline among some organizations, we should be pleading with God to restore them to the fullest possible measure… As Paul said…Desire Earnestly the better gifts… Seems like more than just a mere recommendation to me
Charles said.
“This plain distinction among the disparate actions of three Persons seems to run counter to Laymond’s conclusion.”
What does this run counter to Charles?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A note on the purpose of the signs:
Signs and miracles are neither an end in themselves nor (primarily) to enjoy the believers. They are God’s way to confirm His message. Interestingly both verses are written in the “Past Tense” (aorist), indicating that this was indeed a special occasion.
Such as Moses worked a number of signs and miracles through God, but later generations could only look back: “Remember what God did to pharao?”. On the other hand this looking back should rekindle their faith in a living God who is able to help and work miracles when need be.
Is there a need for the Gospel to be confirmed today vy signs and wonders? That depends: Those who demand signs won’t get them:
Those who need signs will get something to marvel – this (I suppose) is as true today as yesterday. Why? Because that is the point of remembering God’s deeds!
Now for confirming the Gospel: I have a vague theory why in our Western Christianity sings and wonders seem to be quite rare. If these signs are meant to confirm the message, we might ask “whose message” God should confirm? Which of the many Gospels shall God accompany with signs and wonders? The health and wealth gospel? The social gospel? The Calvinist gospel? The Lordship-Salvation Gospel? The Discipleship-Gospel? Faith only? … ? Which of the thousands of different denominations shall God confirm as the church presenting the true unadulterated Gospel? I see this as a dilemma: If there is not much to confirm or if truth is mingled with misunderstandings or rivalry among the churches, I doubt that God will confirm ANY of our preaching the way He confirmed the Apostles.
So, maybe (!) both unity and restoration of the original message (doctrine and application) are required before signs and wonders could confirm our words …
This – just to mention – does not exclude God’s abilty and willingness to answer simple prayers of faith with miracles and signs. But that’s on a different level, because the signs and wonders mentioned above (Mar 16:20 and Heb 2:4) were about authority; while answered prayers are confirmations of God’s faithful love to His children.
Alexander
Laymond, sorry if I was unclear. You said that the Father is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Father would SEND the Spirit. Jesus’ words seem to contradict your position. Jesus clearly identifies three separate Persons in John 14:16-17.
If you were simply identifying the unity of God among those three persons, then I misunderstood you. When you reasoned that “the Father is the Holy Spirit”, that sounded to me like you were denying that the Holy Spirit is a person unto himself.
Alexander said of signs: “Interestingly both verses are written in the “Past Tense” (aorist), indicating that this was indeed a special occasion.”
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Alexander, your Greek is much better than mine, but “special occasion” seems like a pretty sophisticated conclusion to draw simply from this verb tense. Is the aorist in the Koine Greek exclusively indicative of rare or non-recurring events? My understanding is that the aorist tense does not indicate ongoing process, but also does not really address recurrence, whether regular or irregular, local or universal.
In English, one may say, “I washed the dishes yesterday.” The total syntax (not just the verb tense) indicates a single, simple, self-contained event (as does the aorist tense), but it does NOT indicate at all whether dish-washing is an event which happens occasionally, or only locally, or once a week, or a once-in-a-lifetime for all mankind. If one says, “The sun set,” that verb use would suit the aorist tense. The sun began to set, it has finished setting, and it is no longer setting. The event described by the verb is singular, self-contained, and completely in the past.
And it will happen again tomorrow. And the day after that.
Like I said, your Greek is better than mine. But still, this verb tense seems to me to be an awfully thin reed upon which to build a doctrine.
It was written: (Act 8:20 ESV) But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Peter was rebuking Simon, who was asking for the indwelling Spirit.
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But Simon was not at all asking for the indwelling Spirit. He was seeking the apostolic power of passing on Spirit power to others through a laying on of hands. That’s what Luke has just reported. The apostles came and laid hands on some who had been baptized, who then showed “signs” which likely were speaking in an unknown tongue even though the tongues-speaking by the apostles in chapter two were understandably in tongues known by onlookers. But it’s a fact that no one can see it when the “gift of the Spirit” is given at the baptizing of a new convert. No more can they see the sins being washed away. Simon was NOT asking to receive the Spirit. He was asking for the ability to transmit Spirit-power through laying on of hands. But only the apostles HAD that power. So he tried to buy it. It was not for sale.
Charles read this carefully. Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
If Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost, would that not necessarly mean that the Holy Ghost, and the Father of Jesus Christ would be one and the same person.?
jay thanks,
although you didn’t answer my question as i would like, you gave it a shot.
thanks.
most of the issues you addressed are issues but seem not to apply, anyway to me,and my thinking.
unfortunately when using a Greek grammarian.
what i have found is that in the middle of the grammar of a sensitive verse like acts 2:38
(lets just say Robinson) the theologian steps in before the grammarian can finish…
so that the interpretation becomes skewed.
unto (for the purpose of) the remission of sins
becomes just a bit different.
their seems no sense TO ME TO BEAT THIS DEAD HORSE at least that what i gather from your statement ” it is just simple question”
i also have a great many simple answers,
although their are certain nuanced aspects of this concept that i would like answered
like WHY.
ya see jay
I know that the Spirit THAT dwells in me will lead me into the answer.
seek and you will find…
now that is a promise i can understand… 🙂
blessings.
For what it’s worth, I concur with Ray that Simon was asking to be given the authority of apostleship, not the Holy Spirit, not the gift, and not the external manifestations, themselves. Whether or not he had received these things is only an assumption. The word “gift” is used, which is a little confusing, but “gift” is a general term which, I believe, carries a specific meaning depending on the context – “gift of the Holy Spirit” provides an interpretive context. Simon identified the “gift” as the ability to lay on hands and pass the manifestation. Simon wants to “buy in” to the apostleship so he could control receiving manifestations and elevate his self-glorifying status. Peter says “you shall have no part of this ministry,” which I believe refers to the apostles’ ministry, not the external manifestations. Because of the nature of Simon’s request, because of Peter’s response of what was in Simon’s heart, and because of where Peter told Simon he could go, my opinion is that Simon had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and, at baptism, he had only gotten wet. Luke said “Simon also believed,” but I don’t think that is necessarily an endorsement of salvation. The evil spirits also believe and recognized Jesus. Some tradition has it that Simon didn’t act very nice later in Rome, placed himself in the position of the Messiah, continued to do magic, and was responsible for directing blame toward the real Christians.
The laying on of hands by Peter and John produced manifestations to confirm God’s intent with the Samaritans, not to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That had already been received when they were baptized. We know that because that’s what God said in Acts 2:38-39. The word in vs 16 is the Holy Spirit had not yet come up (seized) them. External, not internal.
Charles, the aorist at least indicates that it is not an “ongoing thing”. I would not make too much of it either, as I tried to say in the rest of my post: These special times in God’s history with his people shall strengthen the faith in His abilities to help uns and use us also today. Yet, looking at the OT one cannot overlook that the times of signs and miracles seem to have been limited to certain “episodes”. The same way it is proper to distinguish between the ear of the apostles and the post-apostolic ages.
I know that similar reasoning (though applied much stricter) is used by “cessationists”, but I am not one of these.
Alexander
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is the gift they are talking about.
John, you are right again, amen 🙂
Everything from God is a gift. We don’t deserve anything not even tomorrow. It is by Gods grace that we live and breath.
Why would we ever say that “the gift of God” must always refer to a single gift? He is the giver of every good and perfect gift. Hence, in one instance, God gives the Holy Spirit. In another He gives eternal life. In another He gives the beautiful sunsets, etc. All of these, though not equal, are “the gift of God.”
Amen!
Alexander said: “Charles, the aorist at least indicates that it is not an “ongoing thing”.”
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More accurately, it indicates that this specific (not general) act was, as you say, “not an ongoing thing”. I think we would agree that when the scripture says that Cornelius’ household “were baptized”, it indicates that the event of baptizing those particular people at that time was a simple event which had come to a discrete end– NOT that baptism generally was “not an ongoing thing”. As you suggest, we don’t put too much weight upon this. I would say, that there is good reason for that decision. Linguistic delving of this sort has demonstrated an ugly tendency over the years to take plowshares and pound them into swords.
As to distinguishing between proposed “eras” not identified by scripture– such as your “post-apostolic era”– and assigning meaning to these theoretical distinctions, that is simple literary hypothesis, an induction that is beyond actual interpretation of the scripture. I am fine with such specific “dispensations” as scripture may clearly identify, but when we theorize others, we should clearly identify them as such and be careful not to suggest that the meanings we give them are anything but our own. The harm comes when something like this, which you or I might pose as a possibility, is grasped by a believer who waves it as “thus saith the Lord”.
As you say, this tool is used to different effect by “cessationists”, but the broad dispensational assumption I think I read in your post is the actual foundation for cessationism. The distinctions may be clearer from where you stand than from where I stand.
As a former cessationist I am very careful not to go into the other extreme, so my wording is still shaped by my former convictions. For me the difference is clear, but i can understand that you are a bit “confused” …
Alexander
Jay asked if anyone had an experience that confirms a personal indwelling. I don’t mean to be unhelpful, but yes, I have … and they are personal and I don’t really like to talk about them.
They were personal. They were subjective. There have been only two I can recall in my 55+ years. I didn’t ask for them. No other explanation for them beyond the Holy Spirit makes any sense to me. But I have no desire to subject them to analysis or ridicule by others, whether they have or have not had such an experience.
Faith is not sight. Those who believe without having seen (or, presumably as in my case, heard) are promised a blessing. I don’t know that I want an experience so certain and tangible and measurable that I would miss out on that blessing.
Whatever it might be.
Sorry, again, to be so abstract. But my answer to the question is: Yes.
1. The idea of word-only indwelling will be foreign to many of our members but something others wrestle with nearly daily, as the doctrine was pounded hard by Church publications back in the 1970s. Do you find it hard to believe in a personal indwelling?
***Depends what you mean by “personal” indwelling. What does that mean exactly?
2. Does anyone have a story or experience that demonstrates the reality of a personal indwelling?
***Not that could be proven, as it was in the 1st century. All anyone could say today is, “I know I have it because I feel it.” I’ve never understood how several Christians who each contend the the HS illuminates the scriptures via the “personal indwelling” can so often disagree with each other in regards to what a certain passage teaches. The stories and experiences nowadays seem to be “better felt than told” (no offense Keith).
3. Why is the personal indwelling important? Why isn’t it good enough that we can read the Bible and obey?
***If the “personal indwelling” is needed now to fully love God with all our heart and our neighbors as ourselves…why was it not needed from Adam and Eve to Pentecost?
No offense taken, hank; and none intended, but the critical tone your comment takes is is much of the reason why some are reticent to tell their experiences.
I feel it’s important to note that the Spirit worked subtly as well as miraculously in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 7:40; Acts 15:28).
Keith, you wrote, “I feel it’s important to note that the Spirit worked subtly as well as miraculously in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 7:40; Acts 15:28).”
Are you suggesting that Paul was uncertain as to whether or not he had the Holy Spirit? I though he was merely being facetious.
As far as Acts 15:28, are you suggesting that in the letter from the inspired apostles and elders, that they were merely guessing as to the will of God? As if by writing “it SEEMED god to us and to the HS” that they were actually guessing there?
Hank, I’m not trying to interpret. Those terms simply do not communicate the certainty of a miraculous event.
Well, either Paul was uncertain or uncertain as to whether he had the HS. And the apostles and elders were either certain or merely guessing as to what was the will of God in Acts 15.
Personally, I believe they were certain…
They may have been certain … but those with whom they were communicating were taking this information at their word.
You said, “***If the “personal indwelling” is needed now to fully love God with all our heart and our neighbors as ourselves…why was it not needed from Adam and Eve to Pentecost?”
I think you’ll find that the Holy Spirit makes frequent appearances in the Old Testament text. All due respect, but He is nowhere described as a prerequisite for loving God fully, Old Testament or New. His presence does seem to be heavily related to the live that people have for God, because gives Him to those who ask and obey.
If God offered to give you the gift of the Holy Spirit, Hank, would you say, “No thanks; I’d like something else”? Can you be absolutely CERTAIN that He doesn’t? If there’s even half a chance He does, wouldn’t that be worth something to you? To Him?
Keith, you wrote – “They may have been certain … but those with whom they were communicating were taking this information at their word.”
Keith, when people were inspired of God in the Bible, when people honestly said “God just revealed to me this or that,” they not only KNEW that the information was directly from God, but such persons regularly proved that the information was divine via signs and miracles. God pretty much didn’t expect people to believe that the message came from God, apart from any proof. Today however, and in stark contrast, people claim to have heard directly from God with absolutely no proof at all. Now, I’m not arguing that God doesn’t ever directly put thoughts in our minds, only that if and when he does, we cant honestly say, “hey, God just told or revealed to me thus and such.” Because, it very well could have been our own thoughts or even the thoughts of our enemy. Their is just no proof and whoever it is that says “I KNOW” God has given me this information via the HS directly is being less than honest. For, they cannot know or prove as much. People may just as well claim that they KNOW if and when Satan has directly spoken to them. Which, I doubt Judas even knew it was Satan putting thoughts into his head and heart. A famous preacher used to say “as goes the proclamation, so must go the demonstration” and I agree. That’s how it was in the Bible at least.
You also wrote – “If God offered to give you the gift of the Holy Spirit, Hank, would you say, “No thanks; I’d like something else”? ”
NO, for God has offered to give me (as well as every other person) “the gift of the Holy Spirit” and I did not say “no thanks” but repented and was baptized. And I have faith that I am now a recipient of said gift.
For the record, I don’t deny that God can and does comfort and strengthen me and help me produce fruit directly, I just believe he does all of those things and more in the same way he did it for the children of God from Adam and Eve to Pentecost.
Thanks for your thoughts
Hank…you said…”when people honestly said “God just revealed to me this or that,” they not only KNEW that the information was directly from God, but such persons regularly proved that the information was divine via signs and miracles.”
Question…Where are all the signs and wonders from the Galatian, Ephesian, and Corinthian church members? The spoke in tongue, prophesied, taught, etc.,etc., and gave credit to God for their gift… I just don’t read anywhere that the gifting of the Spirit which provided for the exhortation, edification, and encouragement of the church had to be accomplished along with signs and wonders… Agabus prophesied that a famine would come and the church along with Barnabas and Saul responded accordingly to it as if it was an advanced warning from God… No sign or wonder accompanied his prophetic statement… Did you mean to distinguish between the unusual miracles that may have been performed to substantiate that the words being spoken were for all men everywhere as a matter of salvation or proper faith from prophetic knowledge given and expressed by believers to individuals or a local group ??
What do you believe that Romans 8:9-11 means ? I find it very difficult to make this passage say something different than what it says…
Price,
“Tongues” and “prophecies” were miraculous gifts in and of themselves and there wouldn’t need to be miracles to confirm the miracles. As far as Agabus in Acts 21, remember that he was one of “the prophets” that had come down from Jerusalem in Acts 11 who foretold by the Spirit that a famine was coming.
But, what are you getting at? Do you actually believe these things happen today? Do you believe their are modern day prophets who can and do foretell the future by the Spirit? My point here is that both the prophet Agabus AND the church KNEW if and when he was getting and delivering direct information from on high.
BTW, did you ever address the questions I had regarding Cornelius?
Do you believe he was saved as a faithful and God fearing Gentile prior to the day of Pentecost? As one of the “other sheep” Jesus talked about – the “children of God not of this (Jewish) nation”?
Or do you believe that ALL of the Gentiles were lost throughout the OT?
Thanks
Hank, it seems you are sort of making up your theology “on the fly.” You say that one has to have signs and wonders to confirm a word from God but you don’t need miracles to support miracles…and if you’re a prophet then nothing applies… HUH ???
Yes, I know for a fact that God gives prophetic words of encouragement, edification and exhortation !! He even gave me some things for a guy once that I didn’t know but felt “compelled” to share with the guy… He broke down in tears.. My wife and I have seen a blind woman get her sight back…My daughter had a woman’s tumor recede underneath her hand as she was praying for he….She was 18… I’ve talked to members of a foreign parliament that described a man foretelling about finding a new source of gold, only to discover an ancient Inca treasure… I’ve met hundreds of men and women who have seen and heard from angels, been told of babies to be born, instructed to do certain other things… I knew of an elderly baptist deacon that said he was engulfed in a cloud while praying over the church budget…I know of another elderly deacon that prayed for help during WWII and flew his plane which was shot up to heck following the homing beacon back to the base…just to find out that the homing beacon had been destroyed and wasn’t working… I know of at least 5 missionaries who have spoken about God showing up in miraculous ways in the mission field… I even had a woman tell me the exact thing that I had prayed and she told me day that I prayed it on…. so, YES, I believe in a God that is active, alive, and working among His people TODAY !! If you haven’t experienced the miraculous adventures of Jesus then I can only hope and pray that one day you will… You won’t be any more saved but it will change the way you read your Bible…
All I can add is that being brought up in the CoC in the VERY conservative branch, attending CoC elementary and high school and college….I didn’t believe in it at all…right up until it happened… I know sort of what Moses must have felt when he stood there looking at the burning bush… It isn’t a moment to talk… It’s just a moment to stand there and be in awe…
I did answer your Cornelius hypothetical..
Hank, you said, “For the record, I don’t deny that God can and does comfort and strengthen me and help me produce fruit directly, I just believe he does all of those things and more in the same way he did it for the children of God from Adam and Eve to Pentecost.”
How do you know that was not done through His Holy Spirit? How do you know it is not done through His Holy Spirit today?
If you have the Holy Spirit (“I have faith that I am now a recipient of said gift”), what is the purpose in having Him? To lie dormant until you die and then resurrect you? Or are you saying that the “the gift of the Holy Spirit” does not refer to Him but to salvation or something else?
God spoke through His prophets in the Old Testament … are you saying He does so today? He raised the dead through one … fed widows … gave life to dry bones … provided water from a rock … rained manna on the desert ….
Is that what you mean by “the same way he did it for the children of God from Adam and Eve to Pentecost”?
(It’s hard to have a conversation when we can seem to agree on terms, concepts and definitions!)
The problem some here are having is not that the Bible does not describe the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian. The problem is that some do not want to accept what the Bible says the Holy Spirit is doing in the Christian – or in the heart of a sinner, for that matter.
I wrote an article almost a year ago, “Whose Sword Is It?” In that article I pointed to just one of many texts that talk about the activity of the Holy Spirit today. In discussing Ephesians 6:17 (“…and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God…”), I concluded:
You can read that entire article at http://committedtotruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/whose-sword-is-it/.
I had to laugh… you were doing so well. I did not take the time to read the 40 commenters thus far. But do you realize how much you contradict yourself in this last bit of text?
“So, to me, whether the “gift of the Spirit” is the Spirit himself is not even an interesting question. It’s obvious if you’ve studied the historical and literary context. No, to me, the harder question is whether Peter was promising the gift of prophecy as well.
You see, Peter had just quoted Joel, which explicitly promises the gift of prophecy. And he and the rest of the original 120 were prophesying! And so a natural reading of the promise would be that those receiving the Spirit would get to prophesy. But is that right?
It seems clearly not to be the case —
(Act 2:43 ESV) 43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.
The “wonders” and “signs” were only through the apostles at this point, even though we certainly know that others were given miraculous abilities later. Therefore, I think it’s a mistake to imagine that it’s normal for converts to speak in tongues or prophesy immediately upon baptism, although we see examples of just that later in Acts.
I mean, if all 3,000 started to prophesy immediately upon baptism, that would have been a major event and surely would have been recorded”
Price,
WOW!!! For real, wow! In heaven, you and the apostles will sure have more to talk about than regular Christians like me. I epecially like the accounts of the Inca treasure, the hearing from angels, and the old Baptist deacon engulfed in the white cloud while counting the coin – must’ve been a lot!
(You asked for it jay)
Hank…I don’t know about the Apostles but I’m sure the Galatians, Ephesians, and Corinthians will probably consider my experiences rather boring… but, I might be over there talking to Gene Stallings who writes about an angel baby, in his estimation, sitting in the crib playing with his down syndrome child that looked him in the eye and then disappeared… Ole Gene wasn’t known as a charismatic or prone to exaggeration…
Price,
If you are like me; the mockery won’t shake your knowledge of God’s wondrous power. God never said that he would live in a box with the lids neatly folded and taped shut. “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” It is what it is. It does what it does. The glory goes to God. The power is His and His alone.
Quentin, in his book, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”, Josh McDowell includes a comment by RJC Anderson describing the change that came over the Apostles from scared and trembling men hiding in an upper room who had watched their leader die a horrible death to the most courageous of men. He attributed their transformation to seeing a risen Lord.
I’ve probably said many things to people worse than Hank ever could in my disbelief concerning all things miraculous… But, once you have experienced God, no one can ever change your mind… I’m not concerned about what anybody thinks of the few things in life that God has allowed me to experience.. But, you could no more convince me that God is stuck in some book than you could get Moses to admit that he hadn’t seen a burning bush…
What encourages me is the tremendous number of people that have had similar if not more mind boggling experiences.. Once people feel safe to talk about them, the number and diversity of the encounters is truly encouraging… What I find discouraging is the attitude that some Christians demonstrate toward those who have had life changing supernatural experiences.. Instead of attempting to cast shame on people, we should seek to have them share their experiences…
Price,
If you could see my face right now. It is filled with the tears of relief and joy. I was raised and taught the restricted God. Then some 15 years ago those “reasoned” lessons were challenged in a most marvelous way and has since been re-enforced time and time again. I have shared my accounts of God’s power with a few people that I knew would not tear me to pieces and throw me to the dogs like so many do here and elsewhere. I praise God from whom all blessings flow for allowing me to taste of His sweet love in such a special way. I claim nothing for myself, but rather praise God.
For those that challenge the gifts, I can only refer back to scripture and how others responded then. The same seems to apply today. It is not the purpose of the gift to prove faith. It is not that those who are used to do something for God via a gift to be special or better. It is that God uses people when he needs them how he needs them. That is all. Pride on the part of the used Luke 17:10. Jealousy? I do not know the heart, on the part of the mocker? I do not know the heart. John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” both shall glorify regardless of the vessel or the measure of grace, all shall bow the knee, all shall enter His rest.
I was trying to encourage you, but you have encouraged me all the more. Thank you
Have you guys ever heard Jessie Duplantis talk about when he went to heaven and met Abraham and Jesus and other cool stuff? You can watch him talk about it all here:
http://www.squidoo.com/HeavenStories#module24735422
Curious of your thoughts. I don’t really believe him but if he said he did maybe he did…
I had a lady this past week send me an email telling me something that happened to her that day. Her 20 something year old daughter has cancer, she was going to dollar general to get gatorade which the daughter loved to drink. As she was leaving the store an elderly lady came up to the car and knocked on the window. She rolled it down and ask if the older lady needed help. The elderly lady replied no, but I think I am supposed to help you, “do you have cancer?” My friend replied no but my daughter does. The elderly lady told her that she had been diagnosed 15 years earlier, that it was hard, her hair had fallen out but that cancer was beatable. Then she told her to tell her daughter to eat well and rest, she was in for a hard fight but that she could make it.
How did the elderly lady know to speak to her? I do not know. How did she speak the words that encouraged the mother and daughter? I do not know.
What I do know is that the Mother feels that the lady was sent to her as an answer to pray and that there was no way that it could have happened with out the Spirit moving the Elderly lady.
Coincidence? Answered prayer? Spirit led? You make your own judgment
Could it be that one reason “we” disparage stories such as the one just above is that they so often come from people who are not walking with “us”? And to admit that such incidents could be from God would mean we’d have to change our way of identifying “us”?
Jerry, my guess is that it’s not so much “us” as it is “me.”
When hearing reports like this, it is a chilling commentary on a believer’s own character, not if he questions the account, but if he is more comfortable doing so than simply taking it at face value.
When I was attending Bible Study Fellowship (BSF), the teaching leader (who didn’t have a lot of respect for TV “faith healer” style evangelist types) told of a time when an acquaintance of his had a cancer condition that was close to terminal and the person was then so weak he stayed in bed. The leader and his wife were driving in their car, and he felt God tell him that he was going to heal the sick man and that he wanted this leader to go immediately to the man’s house and pray for him to be cured. He went through the mental arguments with God that you could imagine – that’s not really God, why me, that won’t work, etc, but the message persisted. He asked for a confirmation, then looked at his wife, who was in tears. He said, “We’re supposed to go over there, aren’t we?” She just nodded. They drove to the man’s house and said they wanted to pray for him. The man wanted to know why. The leader said God said to pray for him for healing and he was going to do it. So they prayed that the man would be healed of the cancer. They prayed and left. The man felt so much better that he went into the Dr who confirmed the cancer was gone.
Why does God do that sometimes and seemingly not other times? God is sovereign and we may never know that answer. But I believe this sort of thing will be more routine, commonplace, and expected when (1) the body of Christ unites upon Jesus Christ and stops dividing over self sanctified opinions about IM, water baptism, works, name on the door, private doctrine, one baptism and that’s mine, one faith and you’re wrong, and everything else on Satan’s list that prevents the power of the Holy Spirit from fully dwelling in a united church. Read this blog and go figure how close we are to that one. (2) people will no longer be preaching doubt and disbelief over what doesn’t happen anymore. “Well, if you believe that, let’s see you go empty the psych wards.” I believe that sort of thing will happen and that God would allow these interventions when people who say these things would get a clue and submit to Jesus instead of hurling disbelief. Doubt is self-fulfilling. A little leaven spoils the whole lump. (3) when the church begins to do its job of fulfilling the anointing of Jesus and begin defeating the power of the enemy inflicting injustice, oppression, sickness, violence, and control by demonic elements (they just love it when people deny their existence) and overcome evil with good. (4) when the united church can make an assault against the gates of hell. Either we do it or judgment will begin soon at the house of God.