What is faith in Jesus?
Really? That’s an awfully high standard. I thought “faith” was asking Jesus to come into my heart as my personal Savior. Or confessing that he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
But you are interpreting “faith” as something much, much harder. Surely you aren’t serious!
Very serious. To say that “Jesus is the Christ” is to say that “Jesus is the King of the Universe sitting on David’s throne in heaven.” It’s to declare submission to Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9).
To say that Jesus is the “Son of the Living God” is to declare him the king of Psalm 2.
(Psa 2:6-12 ESV) 6 “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Our traditional form of confession is perfectly sound. We’ve just not bothered to understand it. We don’t hear the kingship that it announces. We don’t comprehend the submission it requires. We forgot to read the Old Testament.
Yes, we should certainly invite Jesus into our hearts, but the Jesus who comes in is our king, but a very special kind of King. He’s the kind of King who washes the feet of Judas Iscariot. He’s the kind of King who touches the sick and unclean, who eats with sinners.
But he’s also the kind of King who destroys all his enemies. The Psalm is quite clear.
But this requires works! I mean, you’re talking about a faith that is very active! Aren’t you teaching a works salvation?
For that, you have to buy lunch! It gets old, you know, having to explain the same thing over and over.
Yes, faith compels action. To be like Jesus requires us to be active in this world. God should be contemplated, but contemplation has value only if it results in service.
Jesus didn’t come to earth to attend seminary. He came to serve. We can be like Jesus no other way. Somehow or other, we must serve as Jesus served.
Again, you’re missing the point. “Serve” sounds like “work,” which sound like heresy!
Paul explains it better than I do —
(Eph 2:8-10 ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
We are saved by faith “not as [a] result of works” but “for good works.” The result of our salvation is to send us on mission. Salvation produces in us the heart of Jesus, and Jesus has a servant heart.
And now — finally — “which God prepared beforehand” makes sense. God, through Jesus, is restoring us to his image to do the works we were originally meant to be doing. We are back to —
(Gen 2:15 ESV) 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
“Work”! It’s the same Greek word! We’re saved to make the earth productive and to protect it — not just the planet, but the people in the planet as well. All of Creation!
God made man to work and keep the Creation. We are re-created to do the same.
(2Co 5:17-19 ESV) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
“New creation” also borrows from the Greek of Genesis 1 and 2. We are re-created to be as we were originally created. God has begun in us a work of repair to heal our brokenness.
This is reconciliation, and because we are reconciled to God — restored to right relationship — we work to reconcile others.
And this is the same thought as in Eph 2:8-10. We are God’s creation — done right — to do good works.
I could scream! It’s still works, works, and works. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth!
Don’t think legally. Think relationally.
I know a young couple who just adopted a child that had been rejected by several other couples. The child is hard to control. “Difficult” is the euphemism. And yet they love him.
Why? Only God knows. But they have chosen this child out of the millions of orphans on the earth, some of them quite cute and cuddly and obedient, but they picked the stiff-necked one. I can think of nothing more God-like.
What did the child do to deserve this? Nothing. What merit does the child bring to the family? Nothing. What conditions are imposed on the child’s adoption? None. It’s a perfectly, totally free gift.
But by the time this three-year old is a teenager, he’ll have learned obedience. He’ll do chores. He’ll be re-made into the image of his parents. He’ll probably even start to talk and walk as they do.
And it’s not just discipline. It’s mainly love. They’re going to love him so much he can’t help but obey.
He’ll resist it at times. God willing, he’ll one day be a teenager, and teenagers resent obedience. But by the time he’s an adult, he’ll enjoy obeying his parents. He’ll love helping his mother out — because he loves her and he delights in what she likes.
That’s faith.
Jay…had a meeting last night with a friend of mine who has planted a church in Mexico….Made me think of several of the guys on here…
Alexander…the church has foot washing services..they teach humility…and they have group meals, but not just on Sunday’s… It’s an extraordinarily poor area…they need to eat every day.
Royce… They teach Jesus…Jesus and more Jesus… He says that’s what Paul taught..It’s enough. Thought you’d like that.
Hank….He said they don’t try and tell everybody what they’ve been taught is wrong…they just teach the truth and let the Holy Spirit do His job.
Jay… He said he sees the church’s responsibility to make disciples, train them up, equip them and then send them out…No padding the numbers at this church…there’s people to save. People who don’t know Jesus…
Ray….No musical instruments at this church…too poor…no one can afford a guitar much less a piano… they just sing.. it’s more about the heart of worship than the mechanics I guess…
Interestingly, this part of Mexico, according to CNN is the most dangerous place in the World to live… he said 300 “beheadings” had occurred last year..
Charles… he won’t do anything without hearing from the Holy Spirit…He wants to go south into a city that the cartels “own.” He’s ready..when God is…
He said he thought he had done enough for God…sold everything he had here in the U.S. and went to Mexico…to build a “church”…(think really poor church)… but he said pride must have snuck in there somewhere…He must have thought that God needed him… until one night, with the cartel SUV’s line up outside his house…with dead bodies inside one of the vans…he was laying on the floor spread out, face down in prayer, wondering where God was…why all this happening… he said he finally muttered the words, “I can’t do anything to fix this.”….he said he heard a voice in his mind that said…”Now, I can use you…” He said it was easy to be Pentecostal in cartel owned Mexico…:)
They use puppets to draw in the children…they hand out tickets to draw people to church to hear a message about Jesus and to get a blanket to stay warm… many of the things they do are first century patterns…some things are modern deviations to try and get people to come listen to how much God loves them. The only people complaining are the “pastors” at the other churches in town that control their memberships from fear…”you’re going to hell if you visit that other church”..so they say.. I guess Greg could appreciate that tactic but it isn’t working any better down there than it is up here… Love conquers Fear…every time..
Just wanted to share…Have a great weekend… There is something good happening in Mexico… Can you imagine risking your life to try and preach Jesus to the Drug Cartel?
Price,
Thank you.
Jay,
If I read this post correctly it said the following:
Very serious. To say that “Jesus is the Christ” is to say that “Jesus is the King of the Universe sitting on David’s throne in heaven.”
I do recall David ruling about seven years in Hebron (I think) and about 33 years in Jerusalem. I have been unable to locate David’s throne in heaven. Where does scripture speak of it?
Thanks for your assistance.,
Randall
Randall,
(Isa 9:6-7 ESV) 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
(Jer 3:17 ESV) 17 At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart.
(Rev 21:2-5 ESV) 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Jay, I don’t believe you cleared up Randall’s confusion, nor mine.
I am aware of David’s throne and the prophecy that the Messiah would sit upon it. I thought it was in Jerusalem rather than in heaven. The 24 elders have thrones in heaven according to the revelation of Jesus to John. Do you think one of these thrones is David’s throne in heaven? I believe Jesus described as seated at the right hand of the Father and receives worship essentially identical to the Father. Do you think this is David’s throne in heaven? I am still trying to locate scripture that places David’s throne in heaven rather than on earth.
The notion of Jesus ruling from David’s throne IN HEAVEN sounds like a Foy Wallace version of amillennialism. Is this what you’re advocating?
Hesed,
Randall
Randall,
There is a Jerusalem now in heaven.
(Gal 4:25-26 ESV) 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
(Heb 12:22-24 ESV) 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
(Rev 3:12 ESV) 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
These passages are built on similar passages in the Prophets, such as —
(Isa 66:12-13 ESV) 12 For thus says the LORD: “Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream; and you shall nurse, you shall be carried upon her hip, and bounced upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
— which seems to clearly be the antecedent for Gal 4:26, for example.
And Jesus reigns from heaven —
(Eph 1:20-21 ESV) 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
— seated at God’s right hand [past tense]. And where does a king sit? Obviously, on a throne.
If Jesus sits on David’s throne, if David’s throne is in Jerusalem, if Jerusalem is in heaven, and Jesus is in heaven, it only makes sense to picture Jesus as seated on David’s throne in heaven.
After all, that throne has not been in the earthly Jerusalem since the exile began. Indeed, we’re told that the New Jerusalem is prepared for us in heaven. And what kind of Jerusalem would it be without David’s throne?
(Mat 19:28 ESV) Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Luk 1:32 ESV) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
(Act 2:30-31 ESV) 30 [David] Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
(Rev 22:3 ESV) 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
I have no idea what Foy Wallace taught on the subject and am not curious to know. Is there someone who teaches that Jesus is not yet enthroned? What an odd theory that would be.
“If Jesus sits on David’s throne, if David’s throne is in Jerusalem, if Jerusalem is in heaven, and Jesus is in heaven, it only makes sense to picture Jesus as seated on David’s throne in heaven.
After all, that throne has not been in the earthly Jerusalem since the exile began. Indeed, we’re told that the New Jerusalem is prepared for us in heaven. And what kind of Jerusalem would it be without David’s throne?”
No circular logic nor unnecessary inference there 😉
Hesed,
Randall
Hmm…
Good questions from Laymond and Randall.
Jay, your answers seem like string theory to me – the kinds where someone strings together a bunch of verses (almost always taking a literalistic view of prophetic writings) and tries to build a foundation out of their strung-together-verses. I sense something is wrong about it, but I cannot right now lay my finger on just exactly what it is.
Could it be that there is more to “seated on the throne” than just planting yourself in that chair? Could it be that God was not talking about Jesus sitting down at all?
I like string theory … but not THIS KIND of string theory.
Just musing it over out loud ….
Grizz
Grizz, Laymond, and Randall,
I stand accused of being too literalistic, of supporting Foy Wallace, of circular reasoning, of unnecessary inferences, and of “string theory,” all because I believe Jesus sits on David’s throne in heaven.
Think about what the words mean. What is the “throne of David” to which the prophets refer? Well, it’s the kingship over Israel. The king of Israel sits on David’s throne, whether or not he sits on the literal piece of furniture on which David himself sat. (I doubt that piece of furniture lasted until the Exile.) It’s a metaphor (and I’m the one being accused of hyperliteralism!)
What is “Israel” today? Well, God’s kingdom.
And who is the King of Israel today? Jesus.
It is therefore a very conventional scriptural metaphor to refer to Jesus as sitting on David’s throne. That’s why the scripture writers use exactly that metaphor.
Why do the apostles say there is a “New Jerusalem” in heaven even today? What does that mean? Well, what’s important about Jerusalem?
Jerusalem was the home of the temple, where God was worshiped. Heaven is now where God is worshiped as he was worshiped in the Temple (see Hebrews and Revelation for extended metaphorical treatments of the theme), and therefore Jerusalem is now in heaven — because that is where God is.
But Jerusalem is also where the king of Israel sits on his throne and rules his kingdom. It’s the City of David. It’s the City of the Great King (Psa 48:2).
Therefore, for the apostles to say that the New Jerusalem now exists in heaven is to say that God is now worshiped in heaven and that the true King of Israel rules from heaven.
Let’s see. Jesus is king of Israel. The king of Israel is said to sit on David’s throne. Jesus reigns from heaven, in the “heavenly Jerusalem,” which is the capitol of Israel. The metaphor seems pretty straightforward. (Grizz, I’m not stringing together an extended syllogism. Rather, there’s just a lot of evidence, and it accumulates. And it all fits very nicely together.)
The scriptures say the Jesus sits on David’s throne. They say that Jesus reigns from heaven. They say that Jesus is seated in heaven, where he reigns. Kings sit on thrones. Oh, and they say Jesus sits on a throne.
To say that Jesus is heaven, seated on David’s throne, is to state what would seem to be obvious. It’s a metaphor, of course, but not a new one. It merely means that Jesus is king of his kingdom — the spiritual Israel — and that he reigns from heaven.
Why is this even a little bit controversial?
“To say that “Jesus is the Christ” is to say that “Jesus is the King of the Universe sitting on David’s throne in heaven.””
Actually Jay my question was a little different from that of Randall.
I was going to ask why you gave the throne of David equal authority with that of Christ.? I don’t recall David ever being over all God’s creation, do you?
Yes you are right a king sits on the throne, as long as he is alive and is king, no matter where he stands or sits. Actually the throne follows the king, not the king following the throne. The throne represents the king’s authority as well as the crown.
Laymond,
The language is part of what defines the “Messiah.” A key part of the Messianic prophecies is rooted in these words of Nathan to David on behalf of God —
(2Sa 7:12-16 ESV) 12 “When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'”
The reference is clearly to Solomon immediately, but the prophecy speaks of David’s “throne” being established “forever.” Of course, the throne of David — his dynasty — ended with the Exile. Therefore, the Jews, believing God’s words, anticipated another king to come, in the physical line of David, to again sit on David’s “throne” so that the kingdom of David would continue forever.
The theme is picked up in —
(Psa 89:35-37 ESV) 35 “Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. 36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. 37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah
Isaiah re-affirmed God’s promise —
(Isa 9:7 ESV) 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
(Isa 16:5 ESV) 5 then a throne will be established in steadfast love, and on it will sit in faithfulness in the tent of David one who judges and seeks justice and is swift to do righteousness.”
Near the beginning of the Exile, Jeremiah picks up the theme —
(Jer 23:5-6 ESV) 5 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’
After Jerusalem was rebuilt by Nehemiah and Ezra, Zechariah wrote,
(Zec 6:12-13 ESV) 12 And say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who shall build the temple of the LORD and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule on his throne. And there shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”‘
At this point, we already know that the throne — kingship — will be that of David’s dynasty. Only a descendant of David can be the legitimate king of Israel (because of God’s promises to David). And so the Messiah is necessarily one who sits on David’s throne.
Therefore, the fact that Jesus sits on David’s throne is an indirect statement that he is the Messiah — the prophesied King of Israel.
Luke picks up the story, when the birth of Jesus is announced to Mary by an angel —
(Luk 1:32-33 ESV) 32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
Of course, by this time, any Jew would recognize this language as promising that Mary’s son would be the Messiah — the long-promised king of Israel in the dynasty of David, about whom the prophets had promised so many things.
Therefore, at Pentecost, when Peter preached the gospel, he preached Jesus on the throne of David —
(Act 2:30-31 ESV) 30 [David] Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
There are, of course, many other passages that we could consider.
Now, you asked, “why [I] gave the throne of David equal authority with that of Christ.” But “Christ” is simply the Greek word for Messiah. Why give the “throne of David” equal authority with the Messiah? In the language of the prophets, they are the very same thing.
I believe right know the kingdom is figuratively the church founded on Pentecost. But when Christ comes back his kingdom will be consummated and become literal in the restoration of all things(new Heavens and new Earth). Although after destroying his last enemy, he will surrender his role of mediation to the Father, yet still Jesus’s kingdom shall have absolutely no end(as Isaiah and John declare).
Thanks Jay, for settling that controversy so convincingly. 😉
I guess folks like Alexander Campbell (postmil), Moses Lard, David Lipscomb, James A. Harding (all 3 premils, I believe) were just a little dull on the subject.
I don’t believe I accused you “of supporting Foy Wallace” though I did suggest you may have sounded a little like him. I think his attacks on Boll’s dispensationalism, and subsequently on all premils are responsible to a significant degree for the CofC being so adamantly amil today. Seriously, I doubt five in a 100 in the CofC have considered the issue in any depth. It simply became the default position of the CofC during the 1930s -1950s, except near Kentucky where Boll was influential. – And I am not supporting Boll’s dispensationalism.
Hesed,
Randall
Jay,
After sleeping on it and mulling it over a bit I still see what you are saying – even though you don’t appreciate my ‘string theory’ characterization – and it still seems stringy to me. Perhaps I am being a bit dense? Could be. Would not be the first time. Still, isn’t Jesus King of kings? David was not. Is Jesus only king of Israel? Seems to me He is King of all creation. Was David that kind of King?
You restated your position well, but it still seems to fall short – even in the light of a new day.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying you are still a bit short of saying it well and fully. Perhaps you just had a lesser point to make from this aspect of Jesus’ reign. If so, I haven’t followed the point you were trying to make.
It is what it is – which is to say that it still seems to fall short of putting the pieces together for me. Maybe I can come back to this later and have something more. Maybe what I have said here will trigger an insight from you or someone else.
Blessings,
Grizz
Price writes:
“Hank….He said they don’t try and tell everybody what they’ve been taught is wrong…they just teach the truth and let the Holy Spirit do His job.”
I don’t “…try and tell everybody what they’ve been taught is wrong…” either.
However, IF/WHENEVER ANYBODY is going to actually “just teach the truth”, it necessitates saying certain teachings (and teachers) are wrong.
For example, if somebody is going to teach the truth about how the Lord adds sinners to the church (the body of the saved) once they by faith are baptized into Christ, and that there are no Christians/members of the church who have not been immersed (like the Bible teaches)… It requires the willingness to say that the teaching that claims that their are un-baptized (immersed) Christians is wrong?
Price, you just cannot teach the truth without the willingness to say that everything other than the truth…is false and wrong.
IOW, a person cannot teach that faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel is essential to salvation without the willingness to also say that all sinners who have not believed in Christ and obeyed his gospel is lost.
You see, a lot of people here argue like this:
“A sinner MUST believe in and obey Jesus to be saved…. UNLESS they never heard of Jesus”
“A sinner MUST be baptized (immersed) into Christ in order to be added to the church by the Lord… UNLESS they are added by the Lord without being baptized into Christ”
So, they teach a truth and then immediately contradict the truth with an unbiblical statement.
Basically Price, truth is exclusive. And whoever refuses to say “X” is true and that therefore EVERYTHING other than “X” is false… is weak.
Those who struggle with the lack of identicality between David’s throne and that of Jesus may be forgetting that the shadow is always less than the fulfillment. David’s throne did not originate with David, but with the Father. The house of David was established by One far greater than a primitive king of a small Middle Eastern realm.
Randall,
You seem to be talking about various theories regarding the Millennium. I’ve not studied the theories well enough to understand what you’re talking about. I have no idea why my reference to Jesus as sitting on the throne of David puts me in or out of someone’s millennial theories. However, any theory that presupposes that Jesus is not yet on David’s throne is mistaken, in my view.
I have no idea what camp that puts me in. I’m just trying to read the prophetic language in light of the Gospel.
Charles,
Thanks for that note.
David’s throne is only of utmost importance because God chose to covenant with David to make it so. Saul’s throne did not receive the same blessing! It is God’s choice, not the amount of real estate ruled, that makes the distinction.
God’s covenant with David creates one of several prophetic themes that converge in Jesus. “Christ” means “anointed one” (as does “Messiah”) and is a reference to the process by which Samuel made David king — by anointing him with oil.
Now, Jesus is king of the world, but most of the world is in rebellion to him. Thus, the “Kingdom” is that part of the world that submits to Jesus. It will ultimately be the entire world, because those who remain in rebellion will be destroyed. “Israel” is another name for the “Kingdom,” because Israel includes all those loyal (faithful) to the king.
(Gal 6:15-16 ESV) 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
(Rom 9:6-8 ESV) 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Hi Jay,
In my limited experience I have not encountered anyone except amils that taught the prophecy of Messiah ruling from the throne of David was fulfilled in Jesus ruling from heaven i.e. that in some “spiritual” sense David’s throne was located in heaven and Jesus was sitting upon it.
Hesed,
Randall
It is one of the most common and unfortunate habits of men to observe a circumstance and presume that their observation applies to the entire universe. One attends an old-line Pentecostal meeting and hears women with long hair speaking in tongues in a hysterical pitch. He is amazed later to find that a woman with short hair might speak in tongues as well, and in calm, measured tones. That same man hears several fundamentalists hold forth on the importance of the scriptures and is later surprised to find a Presbyterian who also holds the scriptures dear to his own heart.
Such presumption from limited experience is a drag on our learning. For when the next experience comes along, not only do we have to add this new experience to our catalog, we have to first un-learn our previous presumption to make room for a new fact. Sometimes this task is so onerous that we reject the new fact in preference to the old assumption. It seems somehow against our nature to see the limits of our own understanding until the reality is thrust upon us.
One other comment that relates in some way to the confusion over the throne of David is the lack of an inclination by amils to distinguish between Israel and the church. Granted, dispensational premils may make too great a distinction between the two groups, but amils sometimes confuse them to an amazing degree. I had heard (and read) of Gentile Christians referring to themselves as Jews and it is not uncommon to find amils calling the church the new Israel and similar terms. Not all who are of Abraham are believers and not all believing children of Abraham are Jewish.
Hesed,
Randall
Jay referenced this as one of many proof texts.
(Psa 89:35-37 ESV) 35 “Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. 36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. 37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah
(as long as the sun, and moon are before me)
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
(as we see forever does not always mean for eternity)
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
(I don’t see any mention of David’s throne, in the new city)
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
When we state that david’s throne will last as long as the sun, and moon, I believe that means as long as the earth stands.
Hi again Jay,
You may recall the four part series you did on the millennium back during September 2010. In part 1 you wrote: “Having laid out a fairly extensive argument for conditional immortality, I guess it’s fair for readers to ask how this fits into the 1,000-year reign. Well, I’d never really studied the 1,000-year reign. I did, after all, grow up in the Churches of Christ, and we avoid eschatology and the Revelation. Foy Wallace, Jr. taught that getting these things wrong will get you damned and disfellowshipped, and so we just kind of avoid the topic altogether. At least, that’s how it was where I grew up.” You also wrote: “Now, I’m no expert on the Millennium. This is the first time I’ve studied the issue seriously.”
By part 2 you wrote: “These observations eliminate all Premillennial and many Postmillennial theories.” You seem to have put yourself in the amil camp so soon after beginning your study, much to the consternation of some of your readers that comment on your blog. I believe the comments are still there to be read.
Yet above I read: “You seem to be talking about various theories regarding the Millennium. I’ve not studied the theories well enough to understand what you’re talking about. I have no idea why my reference to Jesus as sitting on the throne of David puts me in or out of someone’s millennial theories. However, any theory that presupposes that Jesus is not yet on David’s throne is mistaken, in my view.”
This may suggest you feel your understanding of the subject matter is too limited to understand any implications as to the location of David’s throne (or the meaning of the term) but sufficient to say that any view other than the one you propose” is mistaken.” Perhaps Jesus is upon his own throne or simply at the right hand of the Father.
Hesed,
Randall
Randall,
You have seen the fruit of my studies of the issue. All of them. And if you’ve read them, you know that they do not address this “throne of David” issue.
I have, however, studied the Prophets and the New Testament. For reasons entirely independent of the 1,000-year reign, I’ve reached what to me is an obvious conclusion. It never occurred to me that I might be treading on someone’s 1,000-year theories. And I still don’t know why my interpretation is even a little problematic. It’s a very surprising result to me.
I’ve not read Left Behind. I have no plans to study the issue. In fact, I was pushed into the studies I did, and have not returned to them. But I do enjoy my readings in the prophets.
Hi Jay,
I am NOT a dispensationalist and I am NOT encouraging you to become one. Please do not think of me as a fan of the Left Behind series. In the CofC there has been so very much inherited thinking and theology from the early to mid 20th century that I suspect much of the way we think about scripture seems to be “common sense” when it isn’t.
I do think it may be worth your time to read Bobby Valentine’s blog that I referred to in one of you earlier posts on Amazing Grace/Baptism series. I’ve copied a brief paragraph below:
Bobby Valentine’s most recent post on his blog – http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/ Alexander Campbell – “Hermeneutier” of the Word – Rough Thoughts – may be of interest to you and your readers. Not just b/c of its relevance to this series but b/c of its relevance to nearly all CofC theology whether “conservative” or “progressive.”
Hesed,
Randall
Hi Jay,
In your comments you seem to be unaware of any relationship between the concept that Jesus is reigning from the throne of David and the amillennial view and seem not to grasp why your view might be controversial to anyone other than a committed amil. If that is the case you might try Googling *throne of david amillennialism* and see strong the relationship is.
Most Covenant theologians (Reformed/Presbyterian) are amils and this view (Jesus reigning from David’s throne) is held almost exclusively by amils. Besides dispensationalists, many of us that consider ourselves somewhat eclectic on the covenant/dispensation theology issue remain unconvinced. I hope you have the time to check it out since you advocate it so strongly.
Hesed,
Randall