But God’s desire that we be organized in congregations — assemblies patterned after the covenant-making assemblies of the Israelites in the desert — is also about “love one another.”
You see, it all fits together. We cannot love strangers, not in any way that truly matters. We cannot be in God’s image without being united with others — because God exists in community: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So must we — to be truly renewed in God’s image.
And “love” as applied to the community must be interpreted in light of God’s purposes.
(John 17:20-23 ESV) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”
To understand how fellow believers are to be “one,” we must consider how it is that Jesus and God are one. That’s the standard, and so we have to at least think about it, as imponderable as that may be. We can’t just skip over it. It’s part of our mission as followers of Jesus.
And rather than pulling out Greek words and the ancient fights over the nature of Christ’s divinity, we do better to keep it simple. The important lessons were intended to be comprehensible.
Therefore, I start with mission. God and Jesus are one in that they share a common purpose and mission. They have different roles in accomplishing the mission, but it is but one mission.
(Mat 26:39 ESV) 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Jesus’ mission was, of course, ultimately accomplished on the cross and by the resurrection. It was part of God’s cosmic plan. And it required submission by Jesus — perhaps at his most human — to God’s will. And yet Jesus was then and there also at his most Divine, because there is nothing more like God than submission.
Therefore, to be one, we must submit to leadership. We must give permission to be accountable to one another. If we aren’t willing to be accountable, we aren’t on mission; we’re dilettantes. We’re just fooling ourselves.
Indeed, among humankind, there is nothing more uniting than a shared mission. Think of the military. Men and women who served in combat together share a bond unlike any other. Of course, it’s not just the mission but paying a high price to accomplish the mission. Seeing friends injured and killed.
Therefore, if we would see ourselves as sharing mission with Jesus, as being on the same team with him, as participating in the same war as he, then we’d be united not only with him and God, but with all others who share that mission.
Indeed, one of the greatest failings of local congregations is a loss of mission. We are bad to redefine ourselves in terms of housekeeping — conducting worship, preserving doctrine, balancing the budget — and soon become a social club rather than an army.
The biggest difference between an army and a social club is not the weapons but the purpose. And God’s army is charged not only to defend the borders but to extend the borders of the Kingdom. We are on a mission of conquest.
And our weapons aren’t lobbyists and PACs, but love: submission, service, and sacrifice. It’s a strange kind of army, made up of royal priests who serve at God’s temple by sacrificing themselves, knowing that the ultimate victory comes by the hand of God.
Like Israel conquering the Promised Land, it’s much more about whether God is present in the camp than who has the best weapons or largest number of soldiers.
I’m sorry. I thought we were talking about the necessity of faith in Jesus. We seem to have gotten very far afield. I mean, it’s good material and all, but aren’t you way off the point?
I’m getting there. Here’s the connection. You cannot be part of a loving community that’s united on mission unless you know who is part of the community and what your mission is.
Our faith answers both questions. Without faith, we have no idea what we’re here for. It’s faith in Jesus that tells us that Jesus is King and that we are his subjects at his beck and call. It’s faith in Jesus that tells us that we’ve been added to God’s ekklēsia to hear his word and obey his commands together in community.
Without faith in Jesus, there is no body of Christ and no participation in the mission of God. Indeed, if God were to save without faith, he might bring a few people into heaven with him, but he’d not accomplish his larger purposes — to create a community, a veritable army, prepared to spread the gospel by proclaiming his Son and by living as Jesus lived.
God’s purpose includes restoring people to right relationship, which is not just by love in some abstract sense but teaching them to love as Jesus loved, so they can support each other in the difficult journey that life is — not just to survive but to expand the Kingdom’s borders, to transform the world into the Kingdom of God.
We tend to think that our singing is so good that God desperately wants us in heaven. It’s almost an ultra-Calvinistic view of salvation — that we’re so very special that God is delighted just to have our company on Sunday mornings and, one day, in eternity.
And that is both horribly self-centered and entirely contrary to God’s plan. God saves us, not merely to get us into heaven, but to restore us into his image and into right relationship, all so that we’ll do the good works prepared in advance for us to do — including saving others and doing good for those in need.
Salvation is hardly beside the point, but it’s not the point. The point is transformation. The point is mission. The point is community. The point is living a life of Jesus-like love.
If we do this, our churches will be previews of the afterlife. We’ll assemble to do together the things we’ll do together forever before the throne of God — to worship God. We’ll enjoy a foretaste of the heavenly banquet when we eat together in love in each other’s houses.
And we’ll delight in sharing stories of what we’ve seen God doing, as he pursues his mission on earth and we participate in it.
The local church is not a burden. It’s a preview of heaven — for those with faith in Jesus.
“We tend to think that our singing is so good that God desperately wants us in heaven. It’s almost an ultra-Calvinistic view of salvation — that we’re so very special that God is delighted just to have our company on Sunday mornings and, one day, in eternity.”
“And that is both horribly self-centered and entirely contrary to God’s plan.”
Jay, what is even more self-centered is to claim we know we are saved, before Jesus has Judgd us saved.
The reason people are the way you describe them, Is because you teach, they need not fear God, because they are above Jesus’ Judgement. They are already saved, I don’t know how many on this commenter list have told me this very thing. That is absolutely not the teachings of Jesus Christ.
“You see, it all fits together. We cannot love strangers, not in any way that truly matters.”
What!
Jay, maybe I can get Jerry to explain what you said, and why you said it 🙂
Jay wrote:
How true! We get bogged down in the minutia of maintaining a congregation, fighting a rear-guard battle trying to close the “back-door” to keep the current ‘flock’ with the “front-door” for new converts almost growing cobwebs! Why? Because we have forgotten (if we ever knew it) our mission!
Laymond, I don’t know your problem. I have not seen anyone on this blog saying we have nothing to do. I see many saying we are to be doing “the works prepared for us beforehand.” Jay stresses this constantly. What people here do say is that it is not those works that “save” us – but that those are the works we are saved (by grace through faith) to do. Yet, we too often bypass the works God has prepared for us to be doing to busy ourselves with the “housekeeping chores” of maintaining a congregation. We become so busy with “church work” – the four hours of classes and worship each week – that we have little to no time for the real work of the kingdom of heaven.
Instead of actively preparing ourselves for heavenly activities and relationships, we are busy defending the faith against other believers who have a few opinions that differ from ours. Instead of charging the gates of hell, which Jesus said cannot prevail against us when we assail them in His name, we lock ourselves into “our” assemblies and our fellowship and try to bar the door against the forces of darkness. We curse the dark without lighting candles – or rather letting the candle that God has lit within us shine so that men may see what God is doing in us and learn to fear Him.
Jerry said; “What people here do say is that it is not those works that “save” us”.
OK Jerry I will concede that is the way they say it. But that is not what the bible tells us. Unless you can show me where it is said that we can gain heaven without doing any of those works, they are soul saving works.
That is kind of like throwing a drowning man a life preserver, and he decides not to swim the few feet to reach it, is that preserver a life saver if he does not swim toward it.?
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
I agree there would be no way for man to appease God on his own, but in my understanding, that is exactly why God sent his Son, in the form of a human being, to show us how to do exactly that “save ourselves” from this untoward generation.
Yes we have to have faith in Jesus Christ, first that he was who he said he was, and second that he spoke the word of God. The truth. He gave us many , many instructions on how to please God, not only that but many commandments to obey in order to even be considered for salvation.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You are also dead if you don’t swim toward that preserver. Whether you believe those swim strokes saved your life or not. They would.
This suggestion that the only reason a believer would actively obey his Father is because the Father is threatening to kill him otherwise is a sad commentary on the theology some have been taught.
To adapt the words of Jesus, “I, being evil, am a better father than that. And a better son.”
In other words Charles, you don’t accept the story of Sodom & Gomorrah,
as factual. – maybe just a lie about the nature of God.
By the way Charles, I didn’t speak the words you placed in my mouth.
you did.
To hear a believer say “I hope so” to the question “Are you going to heaven” is truly sad. I have heard that response more in the CofC than in any Church that I have frequented. We are meant to have life and have that life more abundantly. What kind of life is it that we live when we are unsure of our eternal life?
Laymond wrote,
As my Calvinist readers will gladly attest, I’ve repeatedly asserted the possibility of falling away after salvation. I do not teach once saved, always saved. I never have.
But I do certainly teach that Christians are presently saved. What does the Bible say?
(Eph 2:5 ESV) 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–
(Eph 2:8 ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(2Ti 1:8-9 ESV) 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
(Tit 3:5 ESV) 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
In Eph 2:5, for example, the verb is a perfect participle, a tense which “stresses the state brought about by the finished results of the action.” Zodhiates.
Therefore, if Paul can speak of Christians as having been saved — as a finished result — so should I. And if your doctrine doesn’t allow for this understanding, well, I have to go with Paul’s understanding.
It is, of course, also true that the scriptures use other tenses —
(1Co 1:18 ESV) For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(2Co 2:15 ESV) For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15 are both present participles, indicating continuous, contemporaneous action. That makes sense. God has saved us but he is also saving us. After all, we continue to sin. He has forgiven us and he forgives us. Both are true.
Our place is to conform our understanding to the apostolic understanding — and not the other way around. I’ve laid out my understanding in considerable detail many times. We are saved. God continues to forgive our sins. But we can rebel and so fall away.
Works therefore are a product of our salvation, and not the ground of our salvation. But they are the necessary result of our salvation. Therefore, the absence of works indicates an absence of salvation. But that truth does not reverse the arrow of causation.
In symbolic logic, p -> q (p implies q or if p then q) is exactly that same as ~q -> ~p (not q implies not p). Therefore, if salvation implies works, no works implies no salvation. But that hardly means that works bring about salvation! Indeed, you can do good works and not be saved.
This runs contrary to the logic of legalism, but makes perfect sense in relational terms. If I love my wife, I’ll do good things for her. But doing good things for a woman does not make her my beloved wife or even beloved. I might have entirely different motives. On the other hand, if I do nothing good for her, I don’t love her.
Hence, James speaks the truth. So does Paul. There is no contradiction.
Doug where does it say you are deffinantly saved.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost:—–
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Did the members of the first century church, Know they were saved?
Jay said “Indeed, you can do good works and not be saved.”
I say indeed, but you can not be saved without good works.
Jay, said ” And if your doctrine doesn’t allow for this understanding, well, I have to go with Paul’s understanding.” Jay I know you go with the doctrine of Paul, and I prefer the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus the king seem to me to place more value on good works, than does Paul.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Laymond,
1. Any interpretation that begins with the premise “I am smarter than Paul” or “I understand Jesus’ words better than Paul did” is false teaching.
2. Jesus himself taught —
(Joh 3:16-18 ESV) 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
It seems that the red letters also include salvation by faith. And yet somehow or other we must reconcile Jesus’ very strong ethical teachings with what he says about faith.
Of course, Paul himself speaks of the necessity of good works. His ethical teachings are just as strong as Jesus’.
The key is to find an interpretation big enough to hold all these truths and to carefully refuse to pick one over the other. Who are we to impose our preferences on the words of Jesus and the apostles? We approach the text with humility.
I would commend to your reading N. T. Wright’s excellent book on Justification, which wrestles with these very questions.
Laymond,
I’ll defer to Jay’s excellent response to you for an answer to your first question.
If Annanias and Saphira were among the believers that received the Holy Spirit, then they rejected His leading and paid an extreme and immediate response. From my reading of the text, it was Satan that fiiled them and not the Holy Spirit. They were not true believers in other words. I think this act of capital punishment was done decidely to get the attention of the other believers. But, they could have also been imposters and never received the Spirit and that would have also been grounds for the penalty they paid. Either way, their story has little to do with a believer who is earnestly following the Holy Spirit’s leading. We don’t always follow His leading, of course, because killing our Spirit and replacing it with God’s Spirit usually takes some time and effort but as long as we have God’s Spirit in our hearts, there is no reason to worry.
Laymond,
I realize that what I said is difficult to accept for anyone who does not accept that they have the Holy Spirit in them. No need to debate that…
Doug said “We don’t always follow His leading, of course, because killing our Spirit and replacing it with God’s Spirit usually takes some time and effort but as long as we have God’s Spirit in our hearts, there is no reason to worry.”
I don’t really understand what you are saying about ki;;ing one’s spirit, but it seems to me you are saying “once saved, always saved, and if you fall you were never saved anyway” something I have heard for many years, and never believed.
Jay, I don’t understand how one can read Matthew 25, 34-46 and say good works is not a salvation issue. It saves by good works, and condemns on the lack of good works.
Laymond,
What I am saying is that we, like God, have a born with Spirit. Our born with Spirit is rebelleous against God (blame it on Adam and Eve if you wish) and as long as that is our Spirit, we will never please God. We must be born again, born into Christ, and we will receive His Spirit but we still have our born with Spirit too and these two are fighting within us. If we allow the Holy Spirit to take control over our Spirit, that’s when our born with Spirit is killed and that’s when we begin to live as God would have us live. God’s rules are written on our heart and we obey God’s rules not out of just a sense of obedience to God but because His Spirit leads us to obedience. Christians who try to live in obedience to rules, with their mind being their only guide, are usually unhappy as Paul describes in Romans 7. What I am describing above is what Paul is talking about in Romans 8. Romans 8:1 says “There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives you life has set you free from the law of sin and death”. No condemnation means no condemnation… not now, not in judgement, not ever.
Laymond
In reading Matt 25:34-36 we find that, yes, it is essential that one do good works, but I think we can also read about the mind-set of those doing and not doing the good works. The sheep did the good works not knowing they were doing them for the King and thus, were not expecting a reward. The goats did not do the good works because they didn’t realize they would be doing them for the King, and thus, they thought they would get no reward for their work.
I think even this passage bears out what most on here are saying. We are saved so that we will be recreated in Christ to naturally do good works out of love and compassion, not out of expecting to be rewarded with salvation. Having said that, I think the Bible teaches that those who are most zealous for good works will receive extra “stars in their crowns”.
“In other words Charles, you don’t accept the story of Sodom & Gomorrah,
as factual. – maybe just a lie about the nature of God.”
>>>>
Laymond, I’m still trying to figure out how you got here from what I said. It’s a leap of such magnitude as to make Evel Knievel jealous. But I suspect that this is just another bit of your ill-considered hyperbole drawn from fatally-flawed presumptions about statements other people make — statements which you do not bother to understand before branding them as heretical. Nothing new there, I’m afraid. “Lather, rinse, repeat.”
L: “By the way Charles, I didn’t speak the words you placed in my mouth.
you did.”
>>>
C: Very well, Laymond, if you will point out the actual functional difference between what I said and what you believe, I will make sure I don’t attribute that viewpoint to you. But let’s please not just parse words, but address the realities those words convey. Calling a duck a mallard does not make it any less a duck.
Charles, you suggested that I had said God threatened us with death if we did not obey his commands, First off I don’t believe God makes threats, he states facts, then I mentioned the incident at Sodom, as proof that God means what he says. I am sorry if you didn’t understand what I said, I can’t state it more simpler.
Doug said; “Our born with Spirit is rebelleous against God (blame it on Adam and Eve if you wish) and as long as that is our Spirit, we will never please God.”
Doug , are you saying that we are born with an evil spirit , and instead of that spirit being changed, it is replaced.? I am just asking.
Norton said, I think the Bible teaches that those who are most zealous for good works will receive extra “stars in their crowns”.
Norton, I believe the reward recieved was more than increasing the jewels in a crown.
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
Laymond,
I am saying that we are born with a human spirit that is very flawed when it comes to doing the things that God would have us do. Try as we may, we just can’t accomplish that. I don’t think we ever replace our spirit, God gave it to us so why would He take it away? But, the Holy Spirit working with our spirit can change us internally so that the desires that our spirit lead us to, the things that make us unlike God are taken away. With Paul, that seems to have occured almost instantly. With me, it has been a long drawn out process. I just know that some things that used to tempt me no longer are a problem and I didn’t change myself. If I could have changed myself, I would have made the change long ago.
Doug, I have to disagree with most of what you said, the spirit/ the psyche is the totality of the human mind. And the human mind is mostly influenced by things outside the body.Yes our body is controlled from within, but our mind is influenced from without.That is why Jesus warns us over and over about becoming like the world around us. And that is why Jesus sent messengers (in human form) out to speak the gospel, and influence people from without to change within. You mentioned Paul, he was influenced to change his mind, from events from outside his body.You either have a mind that desires
“ungodly things” influenced by things of this world, or one that desires “holy things” influenced by a promise of a better world to come.
And as Walter Cronkite used to say Good night folks ” And that’s the way it is.”
Laymond, I disagree with your view of the human spirit as just being the totality of the mind. More and more we are understanding the mind/brain as being an organ that works using electrical and chemical means, there’s nothing spirit like about that, it is flesh. I asssume this is another CofC teaching that I just haven’t heard about before. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are good sources for tlearning about he Holy Spirit.
Doug, said “More and more we are understanding the mind/brain as being an organ”
Doug another statement I have to disagree with completely. Yes the brain is an organ within the body, but the mind and brain are far from being the same thing, the mind is contained within the brain, Our mind is what is recorded on the brain. Our brain is our computer, our mind in the operating system we have chosen to use.
Oh by the way Doug, you now live in a time of understanding, that Nee & Lee could only dream about.
Laymond,
The mind, what’s been recorded on the brain in your words, can be manipulated by neurosurgeons using electrical stimuli. If that’s what you think the human spirit is, it can be manipulated by external means. That’s not Spiritual at all. I contend that only the Holy Spirit can affect the Human Spirit and that’s spiritual. I guess that’s about all I have to say to you about this. I’ll leave you and your mind to change yourself into the likeness of Christ.
“I guess that’s about all I have to say to you about this.”
If that is all you have to say, I guess that’s all I want to hear. 🙂
I’ve heard some students of Carl Jung opine that what we call the “spirit” and what they call the “creative subconscious” may be the same thing. Interesting. This theory about the spirit actually being the mind in totality seems to parallel the ideas of spiritual revelation and self-actualization. This concept is not original with Maslow; Hinduism and Buddhism hold a similar central theme with “enlightenment” leading one to “nirvana”.
Laymond does present an important truth, that we are being regenerated– changed– by the work of the Spirit upon us, separate and apart from our own efforts to change ourselves. This does not preclude our own efforts and self-discipline; it merely reminds us that such things are not sufficient to form us into the likeness of Christ. The proof is often in observing ourselves after a trial, wherein we responded like Christ. If we are wise, we can, in all candor, then admit that “Wow, that was not like me at all!”
And be grateful.
Charles, I think it was me rather than Laymond who said “that we are being regenerated– changed– by the work of the Spirit upon us, separate and apart from our own efforts to change ourselves”, Laymond seems to believe more in mind over matter.
Doug, you failed to convince me, now try your theory on Paul.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.