We are reflecting on Why They Left: Listening to Those Who Have Left Churches of Christ
Yeakley next deals with the complaint of many former members that “Churches of Christ teach that we cannot know that we are saved.”
Yeakley responds that, yes, we reject Calvinistic perseverance of the saints, but “a doctrine of ‘If saved, barely saved’ is just as wrong.” Indeed, he is exactly right.
He continues,
It is only if and when we turn away from Christ that we fall from grace. Christians, therefore, can know that we are saved. If we had to be perfect in our obedience to remain in a saved condition, then there would be no hope for any of us.
Amen. But he declares that this is “what most Churches of Christ believe.”
Well, he’s the statistician, but my observation is that most Churches of Christ teach that we cannot know we are saved — because they impose a long list of tests of fellowship/salvation and refuse to make an end to the list. Seemingly, every year, the conservative periodicals produce a new issue that damns.
So long as the Churches declare that instrumental music damns but women not wearing a head covering does not, and can’t explain why one damns and the other does not, intelligent members will realize that, under this theory, it’s impossible to know whether you’re saved because it’s impossible to know what errors damn and what errors don’t!
Years ago, back when my congregation thought this way — that salvation is uncertain — I passed out an anonymous survey on various Church of Christ issues. You know the list.
It was in the format of a true-false test, except I asked the students to answer which issues were sin and which were not. And nearly all responded to all the questions. We in the Churches of Christ don’t hesitate to brand sin sin!
I then asked them to circle Y and N for whether the issues is (Y) or isn’t (N) a salvation issue. 90% of the class marked no circles either way. You see, they’d never been taught how to tell the difference — other than to read a Church periodical, I suppose.
A friend of mine tried the same exercise in a non-institutional church. He got the same reaction — lots of opinions about the right answers; no opinions about what is or isn’t a salvation issue.
And yet our editors and preachers seem to have it all figured out. Maybe one day they’ll share their secret wisdom with us.
In the meantime, we need to be listening to those who are leaving us — mostly our own children. Declaring that our salvation is sure all the while damning anyone who disagrees with us on certain hot-button issues only proves us to be hypocrites. Saying the right words while doing the wrong thing is running our children away.
Being angry with your brother can be a salvation issue. Saying “You fool!” can be a salvation issue. (Matt 5:22). So it seems that pretty much any sin can be a salvation issue.
The problem with conservative doctrine IMO is that it calls things sin that the scriptures don’t.
“It is only if and when we turn away from Christ that we fall from grace. Christians, therefore, can know that we are saved. If we had to be perfect in our obedience to remain in a saved condition, then there would be no hope for any of us.”
The church of Christ’s problem with most of those leaving is their belief that we are not Spiritual enough. Baptism for the remission of sins is not enough for those looking for an emotional endulgence with the Spirit.
I have not read Mr. Yeakley book, but I know in my library I can find a reflection of what he is bringing to the table. The church of Christ has always been in a battle with those leaving for one reasonor another since Pentecost. Number one on the list of those exiting is for a more Spiritual lift.
The Holy Spirit is a promised GIFT to the baptized believer, but only as a GUEST.
He will never overpower your will. If God was going to overpower man’s will He could have done this in the garden. He is looking for son’s who are in the image of His dear Son. Romans 8 is clear on the subject.
The church of Christ is in the teaching business, not the entertaining. How are we to stop the effluent? Get into the meat of the Word and out of the milk business. This idea of having the Spirit in your innards saves is a theory conjured up by Augustine and carried out into a five point doctrine by John Calvin and the Reformers.
The reason many who leave the church of Christ do not know the difference between the GIFT of the Holy Spirit as taught by Paul and the Regeneration of the Holy Spirit as taught by the Reformers.
I work with a young lady who is the daughter of an elder. She has told me that she worries often, to the point of tears at times, that she will accidentally worship incorrectly, or commit a sin she is unaware of and go to hell.
Something is wrong when that is the norm in CoC churches in North Alabama.
My father, who was an elder at the time, said after going to a Mid McKnight seminar, “If what he said is true, I do not have a chance of going to heaven.”
I know many good, faithful people who feel the same way. Why do they feel this way in such great numbers? Could it possibly be because they have been taught that way?
I have tried in my teaching to give hope instead of this uncertainty. Yet, it has often been an uphill battle. Again, Yeakley seems to be out of touch with the majority of the people in the pew.
Jay – Thank you for this ongoing review – your comments are hitting the nail squarely on the head, and have been very consistent with my experiences.
Looking forward to the next post…
Teaching people to love the church of Christ and to follow it’s traditional precepts is a far cry from teaching people to grow in grace and in knowing Christ.
When people who don’t know any better are active participants in congregations for 60 or more years and near the end of their lives don’t know if they will go to heaven or not, the problem is not with them, it is with those who taught them garbage. Why would younger people want to stay in places where at best hope is questionable? I wouldn’t and they don’t in increasing numbers.
It’s hard for folks to say what is or is not a “salvation issue” when our understanding of what salvation is is so horribly flawed. It’s like trying to sail across the ocean using a compass which has five cardinal points: R, Q, Z, G, and 29. Where else can we wind up but lost? Until some of the most fundamental errors are admitted to exist, and then are addressed consistently and insistently, folks will continue to live in a morass of doubt. We cannot move from saying “being a Baptist will send you to hell” to saying “Well, I wouldn’t say that’s always the case” and then STOP! That’s like changing our vote on slavery from “AYE” to “ABSTAIN”. It won’t change anything.
Some of the more crippling errors–
1. Salvation is an eventual reward, not a current state.
2. Sin damns the believer just as it damns the unbeliever.
3. Even if the grace of God put us in Christ, we are responsible to keep ourselves there.
4. Being in Christ is an intermittent state: If a believer does well, he’s in. If he does badly, he’s out. If he repents, he’s back in again. But you can never be totally sure which part of this lather-rinse-repeat cycle you are in at any one point in time.
5. To be wrong is to be damned.
6. To associate with those who are wrong is to be wrong yourself. (See #5, above)
7. Those who challenge the status quo are wrong, by definition. (See #5, again)
8. The Holy Spirit is now the Holy Bible; if not theologically, then functionally.
These faith-eating monstrosities have to be fought early and often, until these doctrines become the rare exception among the immature, rather than the basic understanding of the group at large.
These destructive errors are like weeds: if you don’t hoe, they just grow.
Have a beloved family member who was an Elder for many years who once said that “if I make it to heaven it will be by the skin of my teeth”. Is Grace really that insufficient? I don’t think so.
Apparently, the data being discussed has been available for quite some time. The real issue is the inability of the Church of Christ to deal with what the data is telling them. We used a book by Kirk Brothers, “A Glimpse into God’s Heart”, several years ago in a men’s wednesday class. The data that he compiled from only his congregation showed that when those he identified as active and committed members were asked the question “If you died right now, would you go to heaven?”, 38% answered with one the 3 negative options: 1) No 2) I don’t know 3) I think so, but I am not sure. Teenagers answered 74% negatively and 37% of those over 65 years of age (averaging 51 years as a Chritian) answered negatively.
Another book we studied, ” The Great Commision Part II” by Steve Cummings and Glenn Newton referenced Andy Wall’s doctorial dissertation on why church members in Southern California had left and where they relocated. Mentioned were a “lack of concern for a lost world and to much concern for ingrown and outmoded traditions”, Worship services and Ministries that were out of touch with the world, and “churches of Christ that had become too “ingrown, concerned only about “their own” rather than meeting the needs of the community”. Then Cummings and Newton amazingly responded that “We in no way condone their departure for what were in most cases community churches.” In other words, they identifed a real problem and then turned around and said that all of these departing people ought to have just stuck it out in the Churches that were disapointing them. True to form, in our discussons of this book, we steered a wide berth around words like these and didn’t discuss them in any length. I concluded at the time that the Church of Christ apparently was using a “stick your head in the sand” approach to dealing with their member departure problem. Yeakley seems to following what appears to be the official Church of Christ approach to crisis management?
Personally, whenever I doubt my own salvation, it is not because I have been disobedient, but it is those time when I start to question God’s existence. I know he can and will save me, but there are occasionally fleeting moments when I start to doubt He is real.
There are also times when I can see myself heading down the road to rebellion. Thankfully He holds me close and has always brought me back.
Thanks for all the discussions. Really appreciate them.
I have an impression on these reasons why they left. At least the last two posts in the series had typical Evangelical beliefs as reasons:
Faith/Grace only and (more or less unconditional) eternal security.
It’s my impression that people who gave these reasons were people who left the churches of Christ for an Evangelical church; and to me it is natural and logical that their new faith urges them to take a more critical view on their former one. Even more so: They will sometimes even misrepresent church of Christ teaching in order to (whether they are aware of it or not) justify their leaving to their own conscience. (I went through this after I left the Evangelicals myself).
I remember very well an older sister who left the churches of Christ for the Evangelical church I was part of back then. She gave us the impression that the church of Christ was sooo legalistic. Now I am in this very congregation of the church of Christ and have yet to find any legalistic person there. I hope this illustrates what I wanted to say in the last paragraph.
So it is about different understandings of the Christian Faith. Churches of Christ were never Evangelical, but rather somewhere in the middle between Catholicism and Protestantism.
Charles compiled a list, I’d like to comment on. These words are typical for how Evangelicals would view us or our understanding of salvation:
1. Salvation is an eventual reward, not a current state.
There is a truth in it, since salvation has also a future aspect. Eternal life is called a reward in some places, isn’t it? And those who remain faithful to the end, who run the race, who hold fast to the faith will be saved, as scripture frequently stresses. Yet this does not mean, that we are not saved today. When we are in fellowship with christ through our regeneration we truly are God’s children. Yet, the Spirit we received is an earnest, not the full measure of our salvation. We still live in hope, have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Such statements were nonsens, ift here wer not a risk to miss the goal in the end.
So the statement itself is in error. It’s not “Salvation is an eventual reward, not a current state” but “Salvation is an eventual reward, and a conditional current state
2. Sin damns the believer just as it damns the unbeliever.
Why not? Has God changed the rules? No, He will judge us according to our works. Our faith in Christ and repentance from sin secure us Christ’s forgiveness, but if we return to the mud like the sow after she has been washed (baptized) our end will even be worse. Sin dams us, unless we repent, and the door to repentance is open. Sins are not automatically preforgiven as some Evangelicals claim. Prepaid, yes, but not preforgiven. And forgiveness can be taken back, also. Forgiveness is conditional (as salvation is).
3. Even if the grace of God put us in Christ, we are responsible to keep ourselves there.
Yes, there is a co-responsibility that the vine requires from His branches: Remain in me! If salvation is by faith, faith needs to be maintained, doesn’t it? If calling Christ Lord does include obedience, then steadfast obedience (not perfect obedience) are essential for remainuing in Him, such as eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Charles, the NT is full of exhortations to remain in Christ, to remain faithful. Many Evangelicals sum all of this up in this term “works” and shy back. they want a salvation that does not demand anything of them except that they once took Christ as Lord and Savior.
4. Being in Christ is an intermittent state: If a believer does well, he’s in. If he does badly, he’s out. If he repents, he’s back in again. But you can never be totally sure which part of this lather-rinse-repeat cycle you are in at any one point in time.
That’s an exaggeration. Judgement will be on judgment day. A fish is in the boat once it is caught, but the clean and the unclean fish will be sorted at the end. So today we can hear His voice and either harden or soften our hearts. This today is everyday as long as God gives us grace to repent, even after our baptism. Yet, because our salvation is tied to the conditions (aming which are obedience and remaining in Him) many Evangelicals view this as insecurity of salvation. But once you are in the boat (or on the Vine) you are saved. But not finally. This was just the beginning of a journey. Being in the boat does not guarantee that you’ll end up as a clean fish. Having received the seed, does not guarantee that the seed will stay alive, grow into a plant and bring fruit.
5. To be wrong is to be damned.
That’s an exaggeration. To be wrong is nonetheless something we ought to correct, yet it is natural because we are all disciples and not masters. Persosting in our wrong attitudes, understandings or practices MAY lead to damnation, but not necessarily. We are not saved because we did and understood everything correctly.
6. To associate with those who are wrong is to be wrong yourself. (See #5, above)
That’s also an exaggeration. And while shunning heretics is scriptural, we should be clear about the distinction between simple errors and deliberate heresy. Anway, this is a very problematic attitude the way it is stated.
7. Those who challenge the status quo are wrong, by definition. (See #5, again)
Very problematic. But it might be an overreaction to “change agents”.
8. The Holy Spirit is now the Holy Bible; if not theologically, then functionally.
That’s clearly wrong.
So what i see is that there are certain conviction that are not Evangelical, but nonetheless represent a better understanding ofthe conditional nature of the Gospel. On the other hand there are statements that are clearly exaggerated and an overeaction to errors that are viewed as a threat. The threat, however, is real. Evangelicalism is in some central areas quite off base.
Alexander
I just don’t believe that anyone who has been a Christian for years and years can look back over their life and KNOW FOR CERTAIN that God NEVER considered him or her to be “lukewarm”.
Unless you can accurately explain the precise point in which God considers a Christian to be “lukewarm”, you cannot KNOW a person is saved.
It gets even tougher factoring in the fact that God expects differing things from differing people (much given much required).
Who here is able to adequately explain who, at which point, and for what reason(s) God considers a person to be “lukewarm”?
I, for one, would love to know. Because, I have a bad feeling that more Christians are considered by God to be lukewarm, than we’d care to know.
It sure feels a lot better proclaiming that when John wrote that we “may know” we are saved, he meant that none of us would ever be considered lukewarm by God. Just not sure if that is true….
aBasnar,
That was very well said, I believe you are right.
I appreciate Alexander’s detailed responses to my list, and he does bring some shading into the picture which I wish appeared more in traditional practice. I drew the lines more harshly. I won’t enter into a serve-and-volley on every point, as that would soon become an essay contest. (Great for face to face discussion, but not so good for swapping posts.) But a few notes:
There is no such thing as a “conditional state”. This is an oxymoron. A “state” is the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time. You may be one thing now and another thing the next minute, but you are not “conditionally” ANYTHING right now. That is a bit like saying your wife is “conditionally” pregnant, depending on the test results. Actually, traditional CoC soteriology clearly argues not for a conditional state but for a situation wherein the believer crosses back and forth between two states (saved and lost) which is the concept of “intermittent salvation”. It is clearly established and agreed that repentance is what moves the lost believer back to a saved state, but the CoC is awfully vague about the other side of the transaction. That is, there is no clear consensus on exactly where the crossover point lies that changes one from being a “saved believer” to a “lost believer”. This point is wobbly and subjective at best and completely invented at worst.
As to the penalty for sin, if the rules have not changed for believers, then what did Jesus really accomplish? If Jesus paid it, the believer doesn’t have to. If he didn’t pay it, we have to. Too many believers are being coerced into trying to make payments on a debt already paid. God does not destroy his children for disobedience, he disciplines them. As I have said elsewhere, what I hear is not the idea of being “bought with a price” but of being put on spiritual layaway by a generous down payment and left to redeem ourselves by paying off the balance. Here, “Jesus Paid It All” changes to “Jesus Paid A Sizable Chunk Of It; Here’s Your Bill For The Balance”.
And this idea that God may just decide to rescind our forgiveness is simply wrong. He “will remember our sins against us no more” unless he decides to pull up the old records and once again lays our old sins to our charge? That is not forgiveness at all, it’s simply parole.
When I say that “to be wrong is to be damned”, Alexander opines that this is an exaggeration. I will admit that taken universally, this statement is a reach. But it IS a generalization with which we are saddled because there is among the CoC a long and constantly-changing list of “errors that damn”. Let me be clear that here we are talking about errors among believers who claim Jesus as Lord. The CoC tells us that there are doctrinal errors that damn believers (they just can’t agree on exactly what they are) but that not every error will damn a believer. This leads us to the unavoidable conclusion that there exist two classes of error, “mortal errors” and “venial errors”, the former damning the believer but the latter not. I am going to suggest that Alexander believes he knows at least some errors which fall in each class– his own version, anyway. The single consistency among ALL the various CoC lists is that the fellow holding the list will not find any of his own errors in the “mortal” column. No, every one of HIS errors (if ever he admits one) is of the venial variety. An interesting coincidence, I think. It is not the particulars of this list that are at the heart of this dangerous doctrine, but the invention of such a clearly non-inspired list in the first place, by which we justify our own separation of the sheep from the goats.
This all goes back to the split between two doctrine extremes: Calvanism and Arminianism. The Calvanists teach “once saved always saved” and the Arminians teach “if saved barely saved”. There are scriptures to back up both perspectives. The truth lies in embracing both perspectives together. In one sense we can be assured of our salvation (Jude 24) and in another sense we should remain diligent in our Christian walk (Jude 21). I am afraid that the majority in the Churches of Christ still heavily lean towards the Arminian perspective.
We might say that “works” does not save, but when we look at Jesus’ teachings, we see that every thing Jesus said leads to just one thing. Yes just one thing we can do that determines whether we are accepted or denied our salvation depends own it, that thing which our soul depends upon for salvation, is what we have called “The Golden Rule”.
Matthew 7:12 – Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Luke 6:31 – And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
NLT – Mat 7:12 – “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.
As scripture says this is what it all leads to. This is my philosophy, and I do
believe the philosophy of Jesus. (treat others the way you want to be treated)
“This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.”
Yes we can look at this as a very simple thing, just one rule, but we are faced with this rule many times every day, and I am afraid many times we disobey this rule, even though it is just one rule, and a simple one, it is not complicated.
We are very busy preaching “know the scriptures, teach the scriptures, spread the gospel” but when all this is said and done, none of it matters, if we ignore “The Golden Rule”
I wonder if there is eventually going to be a chapter, or a mention, about people who left the COC over its overwhelmingly right-wing economic and political stance. Now before anyone gets the wrong idea, I’m pro-life. So my political stance is not about that sort of issue. However, I was fed laissez-faire capitalism = Christianity relentlessly, and through the 80’s it only got stronger and stronger. Milton Friedman was hammered into our skulls, maybe in part because at that time it was thought that Communism = anti-Christianity. I know this chapter is not about this aspect of things…but I eventually decided the Methodist church seemed more in line with what Jesus held most important than the COC was, with the Methodist emphasis on helping the poor and the Methodist stance on many world issues. This is very far from the COC culture. But I know I’m not alone. In fact I took that survey because I heard about it on Facebook. I bet my voice gets drowned out because people are more concerned with the worship style, whether infant baptism is OK, whether bishops are OK, etc. But I bet there are a lot of younger people these days who are *realllllllly* not buying the right-wing political stance. And it is all but impossible to be in the COC and disagree with a very hard-right stance on every issue. I was told flat out that a Democrat cannot be a Christian. I think mostly they meant abortion but I just got too much anti-environmentalism, hate for poor people, and that sort of thing and I did not think that was like Jesus. My nephew’s in his 20’s and his generation is not buying the hard-right political stance. Again, I’m not talking about abortion or social issues like that. I don’t want to do those things. I’m largely talking about war, justice, power, empire, laissez-faire capitalism. Maybe a lot of us left the COC because we’re Jimmy Carter types. I heard so much hate hissed about Carter in the COC in the 70’s. It seemed to me the COC = economic selfishness. I’ve heard all the arguments why laissez-faire capitalism and hard-right economic policy and militarism are supposed to be more Christian….not buying it. If there were more room for Democrats in the COC then more young people might stay. Dunno. I bet this issue never comes up in the book.
Alexander,
I was blessed to read your humble and informative reply to Charles. You clearly and cogently said the things that were racing around my skull begging for a chance to get out. I guess my new maxim will be read twice write once.
Charles,
Were Ananias and Sapphira saved prior to being struck dead? Was their demise a rod of correction or a gallows of judgment?
While I may write with an air of sarcasm, my intentions are always, or most always, pure. You might have surmised that I have a conservative bent and to be sure, I do. However, please believe me when I say, I am teetering.
I full well recognize the absolute truth behind the reasons that many are leaving what has festered into a “Church of Christ Denomination”. I have felt them and seen them up close and personal. I have been (am) guilty of many of them. The accusations and condemnations of Christ as found in Matthew 23 frighten me to my core.
I am guilty of taking a widow’s window box herbs. I am guilty of holding fast to the “practice of faith” without being faith FULL. I fear that my heart is full of dead man’s bones and I am finding precious little illuminating fire.
However, I am equally afraid of abandoning the orthodox ideals and understandings of God, holiness, and worship that have been the bedrock of my life for so long. For me, for now, the ideologies and “freedoms” that you seem to claim as the birthright of every believer are just too subjective and open to individual interpretation.
Our God is not a God of confusion, so what does that say about me in my current befuddled state? I wish I were raised a Baptist or Presbyterian at times. It would have made things soooo much easier.
Phil said
Were Ananias and Sapphira saved prior to being struck dead? Was their demise a rod of correction or a gallows of judgment?
Phil are you willing to accept that Ananias and Sapphira might be in heaven, that they were punished for their lie in a manner short of damnation as a lesson to the church?
We make the assumption of damnation, but does our God not at times discipline without damning?
Johnny,
Well of course I am ready and willing to accept that both Ananias and Sapphira could be in Heaven at this very moment. I am not the Judge of their eternal destiny. I am nowhere near qualified and the position is already filled.
However, if the punishment for a fundamental rejection of the Holy Spirit is the cessation of earthly toil and the beginning of Everlasting Glory then where do I sign up? What was the lesson of their deaths to those brand new 1st century Christians? Was it not “Fear”? (Acts 5:11 Greek Word phobos ; fear, astonishment, awe reverence). Just what were they supposed to phobos?
This use was in reply to Charles’ assertion to me (in another post stream of late) that the believer need not fear the gallows only the rod of correction.
another thought just crept in….
I guess that the argument could be made that Ananias and Sapphira really were not saved to begin with and thats why Satan was able to enter their souls. As such I am sure that tulips were appropriate at the funeral. 🙂
My problem with tulip is that while it gived assurance to theology it cannot give assurance to the individual. IOW to state that those whofall away or sin unto death were never saved to begin with puts me in a strange situation: What if I fall away in the future? Then all my faith today is an illusion! There is no security for me unless i persevere to the end – even in Calvinism! Once saved always saved is of no help if you cannot be sure to be saved until you have crossed the Jordan River.
A recponciliating side remarke therefore: Calvinists and Arminians are sitting in the same boat therefore, not knowing (ultimately) whether they’ll make it to heaven until they are there. But Arminians have assurance of faioth TODAY, because they know that the faith they have today is saving faith, while Calvinists cannot know that until they have persevered unto the end. If Calvinists protest and say: “Of course I know that I am saved”, I’d ask: How do you know that? Scriptural promises apply only to those with saving faith. The testimony of the Spirit within us is very subjective and sometimes merely emotional – there are times when you “feel” it stronger and times where you feel terribly alone. And to be sure: I claim to have thgis testimony as well. I think, being in a group that is strong on this kind of assurance, all will have these feelings and claim to be saved assuredly. How about our works? Aren’t they a proof for our salvation? Well, how many of them? All of these igns/proofs of our salvation are relative not absolute. So Calvinists cannot have absolute assurance of saving faith, if saving faith is only forthe elect who will persevere to the end. Worse for Calvinists: Because all depends on election, there is nothing you can do to change your destiny …
Anyhow: Both for Arminians and Calvinists ultimate salvation will be at the end, and many who call Christ “Lord, Lord” will be rejected for obvious reasons. Ananias and Sapphira are like Lot’s wife for us. Look at them, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Alexander
The “promise” of Acts 2:39 is still in affect. I can find no scripture that says that this promise has been rescinded. I can not find in the text that either Ananias or Sapphira were judged “lost,” but dead.
Were these two baptized believers? Must have been. They had to have been “added” according to Acts 2:41;47 to be in the church of Christ in Jerusalem. The text reads: “their spirits were yielded up,” not sent into purgatory for refinement or “into everlasting punishment” (Ma. 25:45).
Were they not disciplined for lying to God and the church, under apostolic authority?
(Acts 2:42)
Note that “fear” came into the hearts of those who heard the words of Peter
( Acts 5:5).
How about it, when you leave the church of Christ to “another doctrine” (Gal. 1:6) have you not lied to the Holy Spirit?
Revelation tells us there are two books (Rev 20:12). One records every deed we have done. The other is presumably the Book of Life (Rev 3:5), which simply records the names of the redeemed. If your name is in the Book of Life, you will be saved. But still, you will be rewarded according to your deeds (Rev 22:12) as written in the books.
So our reward is not simply pass/fail. There are greater or lesser rewards depending on our deeds. It really does matter what we *do* in this life.
Royce asked, “When people who don’t know any better are active participants in congregations for 60 or more years and near the end of their lives don’t know if they will go to heaven or not, the problem is not with them, it is with those who taught them garbage.Why would younger people want to stay in places where at best hope is questionable? I wouldn’t and they don’t in increasing numbers.”
(hope is never questionable, we all have hope, Jesus saw to that)
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Royce seems you have no need for hope, “but hope that is seen is not hope” and no tolerance for patience either, you don’t seem to want to wait until “judgment day” in my opinion you seem to be in a hurry to know for certain how you stand with Jesus, now. Or either take the judgment out of Jesus’ hands.
What we received by grace is “hope” hope of salvation. If we receive salvation by grace, then that eliminates judgment. If Jesus forgives sin simply out of “his graciousness” what determines who he gives this grace to? you claim works play no part. What you are preaching plain and simple is universal salvation. The bible tells a different story.
Shouldn’t we all be glad that “the Word took flesh and dwelt among us”? Jesus understands completely our ways, our failings, our fleshly inabilities. What some might label as lukewarmness, I label as just being human. We are all at different places in our spiritual life, some more advanced than others, and this difference comes into play when we look at lukewarmness. When I had to face that a loved one of mine was diagnosed with a serious and persistant mental illness, my faith took a hit. I couldn’t deal, at that point in my life, with what I saw as God’s unfairness in that persons life and I suppose that for a while I was lukewarm about God’s love. Did Jesus understand? I think yes, he understood and if I had been present at an intimate dinner with him, knowing that he knew what I was feeling and thinking about God, I still believe that I would have still felt greatly loved. My salvation was never in danger because of a shaken faith, never! Those who preach a 100% faith, all the time and everywhere, preach something very close to heresy IMO. Jesus understands us and still is our Savior.
Wonderful comments all. Thank you brothers.
BTW Alexander, I apologize for the lame attempt at humor regarding tulips and Ananias / Saphirra. The totality of their actions and faith and God’s Grace have sealed their respective fates. It is a good thing that thery are falling into just and merciful hands.
I don’t agree with Laymond’s statement: “Yes just one thing we can do that determines whether we are accepted or denied our salvation depends own it”. Our salvation does not hinge on a “thing we can do”. Our salvation is 100% dependent upon the grace of God. Our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. As Paul said, he was the worst of sinners. If salvation depended upon a thing (aka our behavior), then Paul clearly would have been lost. Fortunately our salvation does not critically hinge upon our perfection or our performance but upon the mercy of God.
Skip, if nothing you or I have done in this life weighs on Jesus’ decision, why would he accept you, and deny me? As you said not many have committed the sins of Paul, yet he seemed to think Jesus had forgiven him. Why, was it something Paul did, or was it just that Jesus felt sorry for him?
Lamond, the operative word from your prior statement is something “we can do”. My disagreement is with your focus on what we do. In scripture, our salvation lies in whom we believe not in what we do. Deeds are not meritorious. Faith is the focus. Deeds are a consequence of faith not the source of our faith. Jesus saves because we first believe.
Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Say, Skip, what does that verse really mean?
The man who sits around but trusts God, who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Rom 4:5 adapted)
Is that the message you get fromthis text? Or is it not – seen in the light of its context – about circumcision and the Mosaic Law? Like that:
The man who is uncircumcised and not following the Law written in stone but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteosness. (Rom 4:5 according to its context)
To have faith in God is all but sitting around, because saving faith works. Paul speaks about obedience of faith from beginning to end (Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26). So this “who does not work” cannot possibly mean “Who just sits around” or “who does absolutely nothing”, but the works refer to the Mosaic Law. THIS was the big issue as soon as gentiles were added to the church. The background to this discussion is Acts 15 and Gal 2).
Alexander
Surely there is a difference between obedience being a reflection of my faith and obedience being a determination of my salvation. If not, then please let me know what the percentage of obedience must be maintained in order to merit grace. If you don know then it’s clear why you live in fear.
As long as you base your understanding of faith on a misunderstanding (“Faith is something different than works” – instead of: “Faith works”) you’ll never be at peace with this question, Price. In other words: Stop kidding yourself! Faith that does not work is not saving faith. It’s not about a percentage, but about an attitude. An example: Either you grow a beard or you don’t – counting the whiskers or determining how long it must be to be counted as a beard are misleading questions. It’s an attitude: If someone just stops shaving for three days he#s not groeing a beardm but simply lazy. Gernerally all are able to say whether a man has a beard or not, and yet the dimensions of the beards vary.
Alexander
And BTW: God created men to grow beards not to shave them off … 🙂
aBasnar, There is a subtle distinction between faith that leads to works and saving faith. I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ and no amount of works I perform are meritorious. In Matthew 9, a paralytic is brought to Jesus laying on a mat and Jesus says, “Take heart, your sins are forgiven”. What works did this man perform to merit his salvation?
If you can answer this then you will understand my perspective.
Skip…Alexander knows that was my point, that’s why he avoided really answering the rhetorical question because if he does then he has to provide scriptural support for what amount of obedience saves and what amount of obedience damns. Works based theologians must know if they are to have any assurance this side of judgement. Those who don’t know whether they are saved or not apparently don’t have an answer to the question of the correct amount of accountability for one’s sins. It’s salvation totally reliant on one’s self and the worst news ever since no one could ever live that well.. Perhaps that’s another reason people are leaving the CoC…
On the other hand, I would accept that there are some that think Grace is some sort of covering of intentionally doing whatever one wishes to do and that is obviously the wrong approach to Grace. However, I can’t think of a believer that I actually know who acts this way. If I took the hard line view of many CoC doctrinalists, then I must believe that ALL who don’t wish to work their way into heaven must be abusing Grace to do whatever they want. That’s a sham. And, it very near sacrilege…
One huge challenge withIN the traditional CoC is a total failure to understand Biblical grace. If I truly understand grace then I will work hard to please God out of gratitude. All the while I understand that no amount of work merits the grace I receive. I fear that many in the CoC have a Catholic view of grace where grace is earned by works. As Paul says in I Corinthians 15:10
“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.”
Hi, Phil–
I have no idea whether or not Ananias and Sapphira were saved, and any idea I could have would be extrabiblical. But I have no doctrinal problem with the possibility that they were saved, and died, and now continue to experience eternal life. Physical death may be an extreme action in our view, but it is NOT eternal. Even among unbelievers, if God kills one, THAT is not eternal death. And it is NOT the ultimate judgement. One might apply a similar question to Enoch and to Moses.
As to being confused, Phil, always remember that while God does not author confusion, WE certainly can. The fact that I am unsettled in my understanding does not mean Satan has entered the process, any more than Satan is involved when my daughter gets Byron and Keats mixed up at school. In the case of spiritual things, it is much more likely that any such confusion is merely the product of our not clearly hearing the Holy Spirit in a particular context at a particular point in time. That’s an aspect of our constant learning, and of His lifetime project of taking what is of Jesus and making it known to us. If we take confusion to mean we have left the path, we can never learn ANYTHING of which we are not already dead sure. There is no surer way for us to stop ourselves dead in our developmental tracks. The Holy Spirit is living and active in us. He can be trusted, even if our own confidence in our perception is limited.
I like the song that says as best I can remember:
Standing before God, my sins were presented and I said GUILTY.
Then mercy walked in, and called as a witness Gods Amazing Grace, then the blood was presented that saved my soul, etc.
We all make mistakes but God is understanding. We get a small taste of that when we discipline our children as God will discipline His.
My question is: Do you really love God?
I ask because the God so many of us from the old line COC were taught a God that could only be feared, not loved.
Some of the most afraid of death have been the COC that on their death bed were worried if they had done enough.
I have not seen that fear among the denominational folks that worshiped a God they loved and knew loved them.
That love confidence and trust that it is going both ways is something we all seek.
AL John… Paul said, I have fought the good fight (done my best), finished the race (I hung in there to the bitter end) and I kept the faith (I never quit trusting in you Lord).. “Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.” II Tim 4:8
I don’t see anything in Paul’s statement that claims he has perfect understanding, perfect obedience…he just did what he thought was the right thing to do…and he was CERTAIN of his salvation… The same man that struggled with sin as we do, the same man that had arguments with his peers, as we do… The same man that had to be changed in his theological orientation, as we often have….Was CERTAIN of his standing before God. Absolutely CERTAIN…
Somehow he was able to obtain what some still search for… Blessed Assurance.. Might make a good song 🙂
@ Skip and Price
There is also a subtle difference between forgiveness and salvation. Being forgiven is the first step of salvation, but salvation is fulfilled at the end.
Faith, brothers, includes a change of allegienaces. As long as faith is solely focussing on forgiveness, it’s only based on a fraction of the Gospel. saving faith is not: “I believe that Christ died for my sins”, but “Christ is my Lord, because He bought me with his bloood, so I am His servant.” To those who were forgiven, Christ sometimes said: “Sin no more!” (John 8:11) – even more directly:
Now, wasn’t the man saved?
When the tax-collector was justified in the temple, he first repented and resolved to change his life. He did not change it yet, but he showed his attitude. That’s why he went home justified. He did not return to go on with a corrupt life “fueled” by a whole lot of forgiveness, but to make dramatic changes.
So, can you really quantify obedience, Price? Can you quantify repentance? If you change course, you change course, you don’t ask how many steps you have to walk in that new direction. You just walk until you are there. Changing course, enteringthe narrow gate, walking the narrow path is not quantifyable – yet it is a necessity to reach the goal. It’s not enough to just believe in forgiveness. That’s not what saves us in the end. It’s a start, it’s necessary for reconciliation with God, but God expects fruit, obedience.
I’d like to stress that this is not about simply falling away from faith, but about Christians that remain fruitless, because they don’t remain in Him. What does that mea? Again Christ’s words:
Protestantism with its “faith only”-dogma has the seed of lawlessness in it, producing Christians who belittle the necessity of obedience, focussing on an understanding of Grace that is being reduced to forgiveness. Questions like “How much obedience” simply show that they haven’t understood Christ.
Alexander
P.S.: Quantifying works/repentance/obedience is from the flesh who abhorrs all of that. “Just tell me how much – or better how little – or even better how nothing I have to do.” The Spirit of God never leads to such questions.
A great lesson Alex. forgiveness/mercy alone does not save, it only prepares one for the walk they must walk. I have often told people that baptism is like Noah getting on the boat, it shows faith, but if Noah had abandoned the rest of the instructions God had given, I have no doubt that boat would have sunk.
10-4 Price
Price said — Paul ….Was CERTAIN of his standing before God. Absolutely CERTAIN….
Paul also laid claim to a personal conversation with Jesus Christ, are you laying claim to the same, are you saying Paul was saved without works?
If so price follow in Paul’s wake and see if you think he did work.
Price, It don’t seem to me that Paul placed his salvation above all others as some do today.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
NLT – Rom 9:3 – for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters.* I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.
“Quantifying works/repentance/obedience is from the flesh who abhorrs all of that.”
>>>
Abhors repentance or abhors quantifying it?
I like it when someone gets a rational question about his doctrine and then responds to the question by saying, “ONLY AN EVIL MAN WOULD ASK ME THAT!”
Here we have just another rendition of John 9:34…
Paul did to the Christians what he did out of faith that he was doing what God wanted to be done. He was being faithful to the available light of his knowledge of God. So did many others like him like the ones coats he held. What was their judgment? Paul was one lucky, blessed man.
He was chosen and didn’t have to operate by faith as it takes no faith when you have been picked out like he was. He said he was not disobedient to the command. That means he could of been.
What would of happened eternally to Paul if he had not been chosen and continued killing Christians or holding coats? WE would say burned in hell, but that is up to God.
Its what he did after being chosen that we all know a part of and respect him for.
Notice I didn’t say worship him!
Alexander. I almost wholeheartedly agree. It’s why it puzzles me greatly to see so many brothers and sisters in Christ who have changed their ways, focused on a life of trust in Jesus as Lord…then argue and throw stones at each other over the “how far, how much” that you say is of the flesh…. That was the reason I asked the question….It’s undefinable and in most cases probably unscriptural to judge one another so viciously. Yet it’s a significant reason why the CoC has the reputation and rapid deceleration of growth. They can’t get along amongst themselves much less with other “believers.”
@ Price
Yes, you discribe a very sad situation. But the solution – though completely understandable – is not to leave for an Evangelical Gospel, reducing the conditions of salvation until we arrive at “uncoditional eternal security”. As Flavil Yeakly says, this is one of the reasons they leave. I am quite unhappy with the status quo among many conservatives who split and damn over issues that are merely inferences. But letting go of clear commands is no option either. As you can say: Where there is no law there is no sin – this does not mean that there really is no law or that you can loosen it or put it aside. Neither can one say: When there are no specifics on how to “do” NT-church there are fewer obstacles to unity, therefore let’s pretend there are no such.
And that’s the problem I see. Some seek the solution in loosening the commands of Christ and the conditions of salvation, creating a defensive overreaction that (in my opinion) led to the attitude of many churches of Christ of making each and every command a salvation issue.
Making a list of commands and stating, you have to keep each one of these is not only overwhelming, it’s not the way Christ taught His disciples. He said which direction to go, not precisely how many steps. He said we should LEARN to keep ALL of His commands, but did not give us a systematic or exhaustive list. We shall grow in obedience and love towards Him. Still, it is a serious matter, a narrow way. Some of His commands are very well known to be hard to swallow (His words on divorce and remarriage for instance), and deliberately transgressing them and teaching others that yopu can skip those indeed can become a salvation issue if we don’t repent. Within a local congregation, this has to do with church discipline. On an “intercongregational” level, we sometimes have to draw lines of fellowship. It can become a necessity – yet not based on inferences, but on positive and clear commands of Christ.
As I said, the conservatives overreacted, but there were certain actions that led to these reactions, therefore progressives cannot plead “not guilty”. You can also trace their actions as reactions to other actions and so on and so forth, of course. Somewhere along the way something vital got lost – on both sides.
Alexander
@ Charles
You seem not to get my point. It’s the flesh that wants to know the exact number of commands to keep, and that for two reasons:
a) It strives for the minimum. The flesh will not do more that is absoilutely necessary.
b) It tends to negotiate the numbers, asking each time: “Is this really necessary?”
On of the flesh’s favorite questions is: “Is this really a salvation issue?” And hear you see our indwelling attitude of disobedience. We need to be aware of it, because quite often such questions are clothed in religious language full of “grace”. the answer is not to number and list all commands, but to get our hearts right through God’s Spirit, so we rejoice when we can do something we know God has delight it and not murmur over “yet another burden”.
That’s why I say: To ask how many commands we have to keep is wrong, is carnal I don’t mean it to evade the question, but point in the right direction. Some questions arwe so wrong that each direct answer is equally wrong. Should I really have answered with a number? Or a list? I found a list yesterday or the day before yesterday: Look at it and see for yourself whether this is helpful – yet each f these commands is valid! List of NT commands
Alexander
Alexander….Love got lost. Though I can speak in tongues and unknown languages, without love I’m just a lot of noise. Though I receive edification, exhortation and encouragement directly from the Holy Spirit to share with other believers, without love, I am nothing. Though I follow all the rules and make exceptional sacrifices in the name of Jesus, without love, it profits me nothing…
I don’t wish to jump ahead but I’ll be curious is Yeakley looks at the “branding” of the CoC… Jesus thought it was important.. He asked Peter, “Whom do people say that I am.” You have to be pretty comfortable in your own skin to ask that question. I wonder how many CoC’s have actually hired somebody to go out into the community to find out what the other groups of believers think of them? My guess is that not many have done that or would even care to. Most congregations I’m familiar with are sort of like hippo’s. They are entertaining to watch, make a lot of noise when they are together, but are basically removed from all the other animals and have no obvious practical purpose.
Price said, “They can’t get along amongst themselves much less with other “believers.”
Oh, I so wish we had some video of the early church meetings 🙂 I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said he didn’t come to bring peace, but to set one against the other. To start a great discussion. (about God) as long as we talk about God we can’t be thinking about the devil.
Alexander, You mentioned, “There is also a subtle difference between forgiveness and salvation. Being forgiven is the first step of salvation, but salvation is fulfilled at the end.” This sounds good but it is an unbiblical concept. What is the meaning of Luke 19:9 where Jesus says, “Today, salvation has come to this house”. Jesus did not say “Today, forgiveness has come to this house”. If we are only saved at the end of our lives then we never can be secure in our salvation. Hence this breeds the perpetual insecurity found in many CoC members. In II Corinthians 6:2 it says, “Now is the day of salvation”. Paul doesn’t say salvation is in the future but it is NOW.
Well, what does Luke 19:19 mean?
Has Zachaeus been resurrected that day?
No, not even born again, because Pentecost was yet to come!
He repented of a wrong way and started out on the way of life.
Ans what about 2Co 6:2?
This is a quote from the OT, spoken to a congregation of already baptized believers. read the verse before this one as well, Skip:
In other words: Don’t loose again what you received! Did they receive salvation? In a sense, yes, but not in its fullness yet. Because NOW is not only the day of salvation but also our journey through the wilderness. Remember how many fell in the desert? This “NOW shows, that repentance is not just something that lies in the past, but it a lifelong attitude. And salvation is not just tied to an event in the past, but something we need to take hold of “now” also.
Canaan was a long distance away, when the Israelites were saved. They were truly slaved from the slavery and power of Pharao, they were truly saved into a living relationship with god in their midst. but they have not reached their inheritance yet. They were on a troublesome way, their faith was put to test frequently. And this, because many missed the “Now” or “today” and hardened their hearts.
Therefore I can no longer hold to this idea of “the sinner’s prayer (or baptism) is the exact point in time when we are saved.” I speak of first steps, then of a way to go, then of our coming and full salvation at the end. Take this one for instance:
Aren’t we already in the Kingdom? And yet, the Kingdom is to come, and we will enter it in the future. Aren’t we already saved? Yes, and still salvation is to come:
I believe these voices to be heard in the future, when the last period of deception starts, when the beast comes out of the sea for 42 months to receive power over all nations, only to be destroyed at the coming of our Lord. But note also: Even this “Now” is an anticipation of what will be fulfilled only 42 mionths later, when again we hear:
But even more convincing to me is what the Holy Spirit is to us:
In pledge of a full payment. Here we have the future aspect of salvation which is conditioned to a faithful walk with Him (our righteous deeds – outr white clothes and wedding garments). Let us therefore not play with our salvation, but strive earnestly to be found among those who are admitted to the wedding feast. Otherwise we will have received Gods grace in vain (2Co 6:1).
Alexander
Alexander, No need to quote whole scriptures in their entirety. I have a Bible. In Philippians 2:12 it says we “work out our salvation”, not “work for our salvation”. I believe I am saved now but that I can’t take my salvation for granted and continue to work out what I already have. You believe you aren’t saved yet and must work hard hoping to secure it when you die. I believe my position is easily supported by scriptures. You believe your position is easily supported by scriptures. We will leave it at that.
No, I am saved; but salvation is a process.
Try this analogy: You start as a apprentice in a company. Are you enlisted in the company’is payroll? Yes. Are you finished? No.
Alexander
You are born, but you are not grown. You do not become “unborn” just because your growth is delayed, or even stunted.
I already have eternal life. It is not a possession, it is the life I NOW live and will continue to live — wait for it– ETERNALLY.
I am adopted by God Himself. As an adoption specialist, I am reminded of who I am every time an adoption is consummated. At any consummation, the court or the attorneys ask the parents something along these lines: “Do you understand that once you adopt these children, they are yours, just as though they had been born to you naturally? That there is no difference between your adopted child and your natural child? That you will not be an “adoptive parent”, but simply a parent?”
Now I understand your perspective. You previously seemed to advocate that no one knew they were saved until judgement which seemed to contradict all the promises. Using the employee analogy… If I am an employee I enjoy all the benefits NOW and I get paid NOW. I still have maturing to do but I am securely on the payroll and securely a member of the company. I have to quit the company or get fired to lose all the current benefits. Thus I am saved now and benefit from that now but I can walk away from Jesus in the future. The analogy breaks down in the sense that I can’t work to receive my pay (grace). Grace is extended before I do any service for the Lord. Otherwise grace is not grace.
Acts 2:47. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. We’re they or we’re they not being saved? Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Price, Bingo. Great verse.
This still allows for understanding salvation as a process, BTW. Yes, Skip, I think we get closer. You got the idea of being an apprentice, that enjoys all benefits and payment from the company, but still can be fired.
We are disciples (something similar to apprentices). We are being disciples for a higher goal: To reign with Christ as His Bride. As soon as the apprentice has finished his training (and absolved the tests) he is a real professional. As soon as we are completed (and passed judgement), we are no longer disciples, but we will be as He is. There’ll be a significant change.
How does an apprentice reach his goal? By working out his profession.
How does a disciple reach his goal? By working out his salvation.
How can both miss their goal?
Exactly: By NOT working out their profession/salvation.
And this, Skip, is what it means to have received the Grace of God in vain. This has nothing to do with works-salvation. But with a correct understanding of salvation, that includes discipleship as integral part of God’s redemptive work in us. This is an understanding of salvation that is not limited to forgiveness, but looks at the bigger picture of the Kingdom of God and our place in it. We are not saved, so we have eternal life. We are called to become a Holy People, a Bride suitable for Christ and to co-reign with Him. Forgiveness and Cleansing are just important first steps in the process of or transformation through discipleship. We need to focus on the goal of these, not just simplify the Gospel to “The debt is paid, once and for all – I go to heaven” SMS.
Therefore I say: Unless you are there, don’t boast as if you were there! This is like the disciples arguing who will get the higher positions in the Kingdom – they WILL get a position there, IF they humble themselves and keep the faith till the end. IF we complete our “training” as disciples we will be crowned with glory and life.
If we otherwise believe halfheartedness or selective obedience or tithing mint and cumin (while neglecting the weightier things) or serving two masters will also do, we will be shocked to learn at the end, that Christ really meant what He said. The question – let me repeat – is not “perfect obedience” of “quantifyable obendience”, but the overall attitude of faith that (by the Spirit) will prompt us to do what is pleasing in His sight. Any divieded loyalty shows a wrong understanding of faith, e.g. a faith that settles for the minimum that is required (going to the extreme of “faith only – no works”) or a reduction on outward obedience (pharisaic approach, list approach) – both (and other extremes) do not reflect the heart of a disciple. Maybe they don’t qualify to be classified among “Believers” (but that’s a matter of the heart which only God can judge).
Perhaps that’s what you’d have said anyway. The reason I use so many words on this are other discussions I had and my own past as an Evangelical. I went through a major paradigm shift on this, and I know how terribly hard it is to get to grips with the Gospel Christ has preached.
Alexander
I can boast that I am saved by the grace of God and because of his abundant mercy on me a sinner. The longer I live as a Christian I can become more mature but I cannot ever become more saved than I am right now. We fight from a position of security not for a position of security. Alexander, in your zeal to prove that we have to work hard on being accepted into heaven almost implies that we can’t be fully secure now. This is what I am arguing against.
II Timothy 1:12 “Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.”
“The analogy breaks down in the sense that I can’t work to receive my pay (grace). Grace is extended before I do any service for the Lord. Otherwise grace is not grace.”
Skip please explain the grace shown to Noah, explain grace in any case in the bible.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Skip this is the very first time the word grace is used in the bible, and there is an explanation, as to why and how Noah deserved this grace, over all else.
NIV – Gen 6:8 – But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
What did Noah do that gained the favor of God?
But I cannot boast as an apprentice as if I were a master – I have a long way to go; and many – MANY – others who started the training did not finish it or failed. The same is true for disciples of Christ. Even Demas, a co-worker of Paul, fell in love with the world again.
A good advice therefore is:
Those who claim to have eternal life assuredly, because they once committed themselves to Christ, do pronounce judgment before the time, don’t they? Paul himself applied this advice to himself (see next verse).
I just ask you, Skip, not to ignore the lessons from the Exodus! How many started out with faith in the Passover lamb, were baptized in the Red Sea and the Cloud – and how few of those arrived in Canaan! At least twice (1Co 10 and Heb 3 and 4) the Israelites are presented to us as a warning not to fall back, not to lack grace, not no lose faith, not to stop obeying what God has decreed.
A similar question as Laymond’s (which is an excellent question, please don’t skip it, Skip!) let me propose: Who will live by faith? (Hab 2:4)? And what has this person in common with Noah? Can you give a description of what this qualification means? And: Who will not inherit the Kingdom? (Gal 5:19-21) These questions are more challenging than you might think at first, they can cut right through our bones (Heb 4:12).
Alexander
Alexander, Paul said he had fought the good fight, he had “kept the faith” so therefore a crown was awaiting him… We are saved not by works of our own (grace). Praise God for his mercy and grace. Without that we are all surely lost. Without Jesus even our faith is in vain. Yes, faith must be maintained but that is much different than performance. Those who lose faith are surely not concerned about salvation. But those of us with a mustard seed of faith are confident. Not in ourselves but in Jesus who truly saves. There may be an award ceremony but we know if we are getting a crown. We are saved by grace through faith. That seems to be present tense. Paul was more than confident in that
Aleander, you seem to really shy away from being able to pronounce yourself as being “saved”. I can understand that reluctance because I have had my faith greatly shaken and in one case was only holding to my faith with a slender thread. If I had given up at that place in my life, I believe that I would have been lost. But, I didn’t give up and instead hung on to the slender thread of faith that I had left. I believe that while in that place, even while only capable of holding on to my faith by my fingernails, I was still saved. There’s certainly the ideal of maturing in the faith but between being a milk drinker and a meat eater, there are many ups and downs. It is not Gods intent to condemn but to justify and I believe that the blood of Jesus covers me while my faith is small just as much as it does when it is large. I just can’t totally give up.
Price, you seem to confuse grace with mercy. Yes we all could very well be saved by “God’s Mercy” as it seems the thief on the cross was saved by Christ’s mercy. But that is not what the bible says. We will be saved by being in the grace/favor of God as Noah was. Being in the favor of God, simply means you are approved by God. How can one be approved, if not by their actions? read your bible closely, and tell me where it says Jesus will approve those who God does not approve. If we are accepted out of mercy, why would you be accepted and another turned down, did God not create us all?
We are talking inheritance, something handed down by God. As I read the bible there will be many disinherited .
Doug,
Do you believe that there are Christians who are considered by God to be “lukewarm” today?
If so, do you believe that “lukewarm” Christians are saved?
Are you able to know and explain who (and at which point) God considers one to be “lukewarm”?
If so, could you explain it here?
Thanks.
BTW, just because Paul proclaimed that he had “fought the fight” and “kept the faith” does not mean that whoever reads that can rightly proclaim the same about themselves. Just as when he said that BECAUSE he had learned to be content in EVERY situation, he “could do all things through Christ” does not mean that whoever reads that has also learned to be content and do all things. In other words, just because certain disciples made certain claims does not mean that whoever reads them can rightly make the same claims about themselves.
Remember the churches at Sardis and Laodicea. Many of them THOUGHT that they were alive (saved) but did not actually know that many of them were actually considered by God to be “dead” and that others were “about to die”.
My point is that I am certain that there have been lots of Christians who THOUGH that they were holding on to a slender sliver of faith when at the same time, God considered them to have wandered away.
But, unless you’re living like Paul… you can’t just say what he said – in my opinion. Plus, he was inspired.
Doug, just as Price is confusing two words, you might be doing the same, when you say “I am saved” in my opinion you should be saying “I am safe” with the caveat ” as long as I stay where I am. If Noah had jumped ship, I am sure he would have been lost.
Alexander,
I think you consistently miss my point. While we are weak and struggling or while we are strong and faithful our salvation doesn’t not depend on how weak or strong we are but on God’s grace and mercy. Obviously, if we deliberately keep on sinning we will lose our salvation. But as long as we are fighting and trying we are saved now and will be saved in the end but our salvation isn’t based upon our effort but upon God’s mercy.
Romans 9:16 “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Grapple with this scripture first before you respond again.
The thing is we do the best we can and should leave the judging of each other to God.
What we think and who and how we judge doesn’t make any difference anyway so why do it?
Hank,
You’ll have to define “Lukewarm” better as I might consider lukewarm to be one thing and you another. Without knowing exactly what you mean by “Lukewarm”, I would only say that it is likely that no two Christians are ever in exactly the same place spiritually at the same time. So, one might be less warm than the other at some point in their life. Does that make the lesser lukewarm? IMO, not necessarily! Consider someone that you know who is a “Super Christian”… doing great things and apperently spiritual in all his ways. You might consider yourself a lesser Christian even though you are doing the dead level best that you can do… are you still lukewarm? Different talents my friend and we don’t get to know who has what when it comes to talents.
No one can earn his our her salvation, Skip, that’s how i understand Rom 9:16, but then it is about remaining saved or abiding in Christ. A few chapters on, Paul also says:
So, I can validly say “I am saved” in the sense of having been brought out of Egypt. But I have to continue in faith in order to reach the Promised Land. If I got you right, I think we agree on this. Our differences are mainly due to the direction from which we arrived at this point. Coming from Evangelicalism I phrase my convictions differently than someone who came out of permanent unsecurity. Having been shaped by pour past we warn against different (even opposite) exaggerations, andt this, brother, is entirely commendable, as long as we stay balanced.
Alexander
Doug,
You just made my point!! It does not matter how I define “lukewarm”. It does not matter how YOU define “lukewarm”! The ONLY definition that matters is that of God himself.
Not think about this for a minute. Either, you can adequately define and explain which people God considers to be “lukewarm” (and at which point he considers them to be as much), OR you will have to admit that you do not know exactly who and what God considers to be “lukewarm”.
Of course, Jesus was/is the perfect example. He had no house or any other worldly possessions that we know of, and he never did anything other than what was the most pleasing to God. The apostle Paul was a pretty good example of following him. But, can you honestly say that you or I are giving God our “dead level best” (as you put it) when we have homes, cars, savings, vacations, and recreational activities while we KNOW people are lost, have no Bibles, food, or friends?
How do you know that God does not consider you or I to be “lukewarm”?
Again, either you need to explain exactly WHAT and WHO God considers to be lukewarm, OR you need to admit that you do not know. And if you admit that you do not know AND admit that lukewarm Christians make God sick – well, you’ll be admitting that you do not know whether or not you are making God sick yourself.
Right now, I’m smoking a turkey and watching the game. Yesterday, I went fishing and then out to dinner. I know that there are more spiritual things I can be doing with my time and money. I trust Jesus and pray for God’s mercy, but I do not KNOW that God does NOT view Christians like me lukewarm.
If you do know exactly who/what/when God considers one to be lukewarm – please share with us.
Alexander, I think we are in agreement. I have come from both the Arminian perspective in the distant past and the Calvinistic perspective more recently. I believe that we can be fully secure in our salvation now AND we must be diligent in the pursuit of our Christian walk. Either extreme gets us in trouble. The Bible clearly teaches on security and clearly teaches on responsibility and somehow both are harmonized when understood together.
Skip, You are precisely correct.
The flawed thinking by some people is that we are given two options and we can decide which side we want to be on. That is not the case however because as you state, both are taught in Scripture so in reality both are God’s sides. So, our only choice is to believe both even when logic seems to be over ruled.
It is no different than Peter saying to the Jews to whom he preached the first sermon after Pentecost that they were murderers and at the same time that it was just as God had planned long before. Both are true and both are to be trusted and believed.
What is abhorrent is for one side to not only accept and believe only one view but to damn another who disagrees. It happens…
Let’s recall a decisive moment in which both Price and Skip seemed to revel, this was their moment of glory, proof certain they were right, in claiming salvation, without a doubt.
Price says: April 27, 2012 at 11:58 am
Acts 2:47. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. We’re they or we’re they not being saved? Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Skip says; April 27, 2012 at 12:09 pm
Price, Bingo. Great verse.
Alex, is this really the best vs. to back what they are arguing? let’s take another look at what was said. ” And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.” ” those who were being saved.” “being saved” sounds like the beginning of a process to me, not the finalization of it.
Hank, you seem to be quite concerned about the level of your good works and that might be the Holy Spirit at work, I don’t know. But, when I think about God spewing a “believer” out, I would think more about that believers good AND evil works. If a believer is doing some good works but also engages in sinful and evil works, I see that as being more in the range of being lukewarm than a believer who is doing good works below their capacity for good works. As I already said, I don’t know how to gage the level of good works that makes a person “hot” but I think it would certainly be related to the individual and not to some arbitrary standard. I see that as between the individual and God. But, if a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ is engaging in activity/works that are not Jesus-like… well, I think that probably meets the defintion of lukewarm and that person might be in trouble.
Doug, you wrote:
“But, if a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ is engaging in activity/works that are not Jesus-like… well, I think that probably meets the defintion of lukewarm and that person might be in trouble.”
What do you mean by “activity/works that are not Jesus-like”?
Is SIN “Jesus-like”?
If not, and if whoever is involved in activity/works not “Jesus-like” is “in trouble” – then doesn’t that mean that anybody involved in sin is “in trouble”?
And what do you mean by being “in trouble”?
Could you explain a little better? Are you saying you know who and when God considers a person “lukewarm,” or not?
Matt 7:22 has people prophesying (speaking God inspired words), taking control over demons, and evidencing acts of power and yet Jesus says that he will say “I never knew you.” I wonder if it is because they said “WE” did it… Works theology apparently isn’t a great way to impress Jesus… These people were taking credit for what God was doing through them. On their own they could do nothing yet it was “I” or “WE” that they claimed had done incredible deeds worthy of salvation… Wrong.
Laymond… I’m sorry, my Bible says that the Lord added to the church daily, those that we being saved…not mercied… Don’t think I’m the one confused or worried… I’m saved by Grace through Faith… I’m pumped. Excited. Joyful… Exuberant. Grateful… Live how you choose but don’t try and impose that kind of fearful, unknowing life on me.
Hank,
I won’t put myself in the place of God. He judges, not me. All I am saying is a person who claims to belong to Christ but continues to knowingly engage in their favorite sins on the side might find himself in trouble on judgement day. But, I believe in grace and won’t make any claims to know how a person like that might fair. Some will apparently escape through the fire, just barely. Obviously, it’s better not to continue those sins we know we love but some sins aren’t well planned, like cussing when you hit your finger with a hammer.
Do you think that God will find a person lukewarm and damn them to hell because they haven’t performed enough good works? That seems to be what you are trying to say without actually saying it. If that’s the case, you better quit fishing and cooking turkeys.
Doug… Don’t go meddling with Hank on hunting and fishing…that’s too broad a brush…that gets me !! LOL
Water freezes at 32…boils at 212… What is lukewarm? Surely it has to be defined so that we can live at least a degree above that in order to feel anything than utter panic that we are going to spend the rest of eternity in the fires of hell… Lord, what a horrible way to live.
Price,
This is a tangent, but one I think you will enjoy. You raise a point about miracles [demonic IMO] and human works from a great verse (Matt. 7:22). I agree with your point, the people were focusing on “self.” Going deeper, however, Jesus does not say he would know them and then stop knowing them. Rather, he makes a proclamation that to whoever Jesus is speaking about, on judgement day he will have NEVER known them. “know” is used here and in many other places as a deeply intimidate salvific relationship. I praise God that he is at work in US [christians] “to will and to act according to his good purpose” – Philippians 2:13. Sorry for the tangent from the conversation. I pray you are doing well.
Price,
I have a Ranger Bass boat in my garage and have always lived by the saying that God doesn’t count the days we spend fishing to our appointed days. 🙂 I tried hunting but finally decided I was a much better fisherman.
I wonder if it is because they said “WE” did it… Works theology apparently isn’t a great way to impress Jesus
Price , is that what you read from this, well that is a long way from what Jesus said. can you show me where, Jesus tells you to prophesy, and cast out devels. no the reason Jesus said he did not know them, was because they were not following him, his advice was to do the will of the Father, not go out on your own and do what you think is right.Do the work God tells you to do, not what you want to do.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
You can tell if a person follows Jesus by the works they do.
Price added this to the scripture (speaking God inspired words), Have you ever heard the words “false prophets”? I’m not to sure they were casting out devils either, I know they said they were , but whether they were or not they weren’t doing what they were told to do. Not all works you do counts for you, some count against you , that is called sin.
Ohhhh… now Hank is going to make me feel bad about owning a bass boat when I could sell it and give the proceeds to the poor.
Ain’t going to happen, Hank!
HG, could you please point out in the Bible (or from any other source for that matter) just when miracles ceased as signs of God’s presence and were handed over to demons to dispense? (No specific date needed, just get me within a decade or two.) Competing spiritual powers go at least as far back as Moses’ serpent eating the serpents that Pharoah’s magicians produced. But now, apparently God has retired from the field entirely, leaving miracles to the Devil. Sounds specious to me, but I’m sure you’ll clear up this handover of the miraculous to Satan with just a few verses.
But this is nothing new. The Jews said that Jesus cast out demons by the prince of demons, and this is just another verse to that song.
“Live how you choose but don’t try and impose that kind of fearful, unknowing life on me.”
You heard him Peter, don’t try and pull that stuff on Price, he ain’t a-goin fer it.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:
Laymond…I Cor 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. I Cor 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy…. It’s always interesting to read your personal interpretations of the text…
Doug asks,
“Do you think that God will find a person lukewarm and damn them to hell because they haven’t performed enough good works?”
Doug, I have repeatedly said that I DO NOT KNOW precisely who (and at which point), God considers a Christian to be lukewarm! My point is that you do not know either – because if you did, surely you would break it all down for us.
Instead, you keep making statements that you don’t even believe yourself! And then when asked about them, to explain your own words, you start talking about the Ranger bass boat in your garage.
Allow me to try again:
Doug, you wrote:
“But, if a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ is engaging in activity/works that are not Jesus-like… well, I think that probably meets the definition of lukewarm and that person might be in trouble.”
What do you mean by “activity/works that are not Jesus-like”?
Is SIN “Jesus-like”?
If not, and if whoever is involved in activity/works not “Jesus-like” is “in trouble” – then doesn’t that mean that anybody involved in sin is “in trouble”?
And what do you mean by being “in trouble”?
Could you explain a little better? Are you saying you know who and when God considers a person “lukewarm,” or not?
—————————————————————–
As far as whether or not I “…think that God will find a person lukewarm and damn them to hell because they haven’t performed enough good works?”, I would reference Mat 25 and ask whether or not YOU think Jesus will actually tell people —
“‘…Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So actually, yeah, I do believe that certain people will go to hell for not doing enough “good works” (assuming giving food, clothes and company to the needy are “good works”)
HG… I’ve used that point several times…NEVER having known them… My opinion of that is this… without some kind of supernatural empowerment, no one was going to drive a demon out, or prophesy accurately, or do any type of “dunamis” work… Either the empowerment was of God or it was of Satan. I don’t think one can conclude from the statement that the empowerment was from Satan so it had to have been of God. It seems that the supposed followers were trying to justify themselves before God by claiming responsibility for works they had done which were really God doing it through them. Seems odd…
Perhaps the story is just more of an illustration than an actual event. If so, it seems to me, and perhaps to me only, that Jesus was being critical of someone who would offer up works of ANY kind as an “invoice” to be paid (salvation) as if it was due them. Perhaps that is why he said He never Knew THEM.. They THOUGHT they knew Jesus and even if they did, again, it isn’t what they do that matters….it is what Jesus does…. Seems to be a central theme throughout the Bible… hidden from the those that still believe they earn any of it…
Glad to see you are still stirring up the dust !!
Laymond, I don’t revel in anything but the Grace that God graciously extends me through faith in Jesus. I’m sorry you feel required to live in fear of the unknown but I don’t feel so inclined nor would I encourage anyone to live such a horrible existence.
Did you go to your Greek Lexicon to see if “being saved” was present, past or future tense?
Price and Laymond,
The Greek for “being saved” is a present, passive, accusative participle.
In this form, present indicates continuous or repeated action contemporaneous with the main verb: “added.” Thus, salvation was occuring repeatedly as people were being added.
Charles McLean,
Wow… what can I say? This is why I quit posting so much; very few people read before posting a response. If you had bothered to read my post, you would not have needed to comment about it. In my quick point trying to add to what Price said, I did not say anything about miracles ceasing. That was not even under discussion. Rather, I said the people of Jesus’ story were empowered by Satan. Furthermore, I said, “it [miracles being of Satan rather than God in this verse] is my opinion!”
In essence, I agree with Dr. Jack Cottrell who gives a good summary at http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=200633175616
I have no idea where the questions or objective of your post comes from.
Price,
Thank you for reading my comment and noting my opinion on the matter. I added a link on the issue by Dr. Cottrell roughly two responses above. I would add some specific points as to why my opinion that the miracles of Mt. 7:21-23 are Satanic, but that is a further tangent. I agree with you that we should boast in the work of God in us, not ourselves. It is good to be around.
Laymond, please note Jay’s comments on being saved. I fear that both you and Alexander misunderstand the argument that Price and I are making. We are saved when we are forgiven AND we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. You seem to only argue for the fact that we are forgiven but don’t know if we are saved until the end. Since the greek for “being saved” is a present, passive, accusative participle, I am confident that it means I am saved now AND I am working out my salvation for the rest of my life. I believe both are true and you apparently don’t believe the scriptures on being secure in Christ that I see in the NT.
Hank,
You always ask me questions, so if you don’t mind… You said: ” I do believe that certain people will go to hell for not doing enough “good works”. Would you please tell me what is “enough”? You see, what I see you doing is setting the stage where people are always unsure about their salvation because they question if they have done “enough”. I don’t deny that Christians need to be doing the things you listed from Matthew:25 but does the individual Christian need to doing all of them, some of them or just one individual work? After all, Christians are meant to live in community so what seems apparent to me is that the community needs to be doing these works communionally, not that the individual be doing all of them. Jesus certainly didn’t want his followers to live in the painted corner of fear where you seem to be trying to put them.
Also, my comments about bass boats were directed to Price, not you. That was a little of base IMO.
Doug, you wrote:
“Also, my comments about bass boats were directed to Price, not you. That was a little off base IMO.”
Really, seems like it was directed to me when you wrote – “Ohhhh… now Hank is going to make me feel bad about owning a bass boat when I could sell it and give the proceeds to the poor….Ain’t going to happen, Hank”
Unless you also also call Price “Hank”, the comments were clearly, to me.
But don’t keep changing the subject. DO you know precisely who it is and at which point God considers one to be “lukewarm”?
Rather than answer the simple and fair question, you prefer to make jokes about it. But, I thought I read here sometime ago that the people here are supposed to try and address the questions of each other? On another thread Jay took the last 4 questions I asked him, point by point, and gave his answer (although I don’t agree with them all).
I mean, you won’t even answer the questions asking you to explain your own self. Again, you wrote:
“But, if a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ is engaging in activity/works that are not Jesus-like… well, I think that probably meets the definition of lukewarm and that person might be in trouble.”
And again, I ask, what do you mean by “activity/works that are not Jesus-like”?
Is SIN “Jesus-like”?
If not, and if whoever is involved in activity/works not “Jesus-like” is “in trouble” – then doesn’t that mean that anybody involved in sin “might be in trouble”?
And what do you mean by “might be in trouble”?
Could you explain a little better? Are you saying you know who and when God considers a person “lukewarm,” or not?
“I believe both are true and you apparently don’t believe the scriptures on being secure in Christ that I see in the NT.”
Skip, I do believe one is secure/safe in Christ, if they remain in Christ. I believe Noah was safe/secure from the flood as long as he remained on the ark, I believe Noah was saved from the flood as soon as the water receded and the ark was safe on the ground. I believe you will be “saved” when Jesus returns you to God.
Price said, “I’m sorry you feel required to live in fear of the unknown but I don’t feel so inclined nor would I encourage anyone to live such a horrible existence.”
Price, I don’t live in constant fear of hell, I do my best, but I am not so arrogant as to declare, I know the future either. I do believe Paul addressed this very thing.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Hank,
The comment about a Ranger bass boat in my garage which you referenced was written to Price not you. The later comment was written in jest, if I offended you I apologize. Now,
DO you know precisely who it is and at which point God considers one to be “lukewarm”? No, I don’t and since it’s not me who makes such a determination, that doesn’t concern me very much. I really think I had pretty much answered this question in earlier comments. I reject the notion that my inability to know this precisely means that I should live my life in fear of God’s condemnation. It is Jesus work that has saved me, not my own. My works are simply in response to what Jesus has done for me. Since the bible doesn’t give an equation to determine what quantity or quality of works that gets one above the lukewarm level, I don’t see this as something a Christian should be concerned about. A Christian who is living a double life is a different matter.
What do you mean by “activity/works that are not Jesus-like? I meant willful activities that are not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus and/or His Apostles.
Is SIN “Jesus-like”? No
And what do you mean by “might be in trouble”? I meant that Jesus might not recognize some persons who refer to themselves as Christians as His sheep.
Your turn to answer some of my questions … I really don’t understand where you are trying to go with this conversation? I have written some comments relative to that which I thought might answer that question but I really don’t know if they were correct. Maybe you just enjoy debating and there is no point to the conversation?
Laymond, part of the reason so many of my friends who grew up in the CoC have left the CoC is because of this Fiery God who looks to damn someone at the slightest hint of incorrect behavior. The Eternal Task Master, The Keeper of the Key of Hell…. Well, you live how you wish… I think of God as my Father..not my Tormentor… Is He more than I could imagine and certainly capable of tossing my behind in hell…sure. But, did he bring Jesus into my life to destroy me? No.
“Come to me all ya’ll that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls…For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” Matt 11:28-30…
I guess we each choose to see what we want to see… I see unmerited Favor; indescribably love and compassion; I see Abba Father… I see Big Daddy with a smile on His face…
Do you think Paul agrees with you? That you “are” saved or does he say you are back in the grace of God, and you “SHALL” be saved.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
we have now received the atonement. we shall be saved by his life.
WE can live our whole long life doing good and living right but slip up and curse or make a slip and then die the next minute and be sent to hell.
OR
We can live a life of sin with no knowledge or concern for God or righteousness and in the last hour of life change, repent, and ask God for forgiveness and die heaven bound.
The first is what was taught in the COC and still is by most, but thankfully today not all.
AJ,
Do you honestly believe that most people in the cofc teach that one can live his “whole long life doing good and living right but slip up and curse or make a slip and then die the next minute and be sent to hell”? Seriously, from where do you gather such information?
To those who may not know any better, your allegations against most members of the cofc is at best misleading, and at worst a lie. Has the Barnard group conducted such a study or is that just what you wish to believe?
For by works and faith are you saved and that depends on yourself, not on Christ alone.
There should be no surprise that near the end of their lives many people who have been taught works based salvation would ask “Have I done enough..?” or “Have I been good enough?” Since there is no firm answer to questions based on a lie there is no assurance.
Only faith in Christ our Lord alone will bring peace and assurance.
Price said, “part of the reason so many of my friends who grew up in the CoC have left the CoC is because of this Fiery God who looks to damn someone at the slightest hint of incorrect behavior.”
First off let me confess, I never in my life attended a CoC like you describe, but I never attended an Alabama CoC either. Arkansas, when I was a kid, and Texas from then on.
Price, I fear you might be exaggerating the situation some, but if you are not then I surely can understand why you feel the way you do, and am sorry you were treated in such a manner. but that said we have to rise above the past, and live for the future, because that is what we have left. And no matter how we were treated in the past, God is still the creator, and we the created. We cannot demand anything of God, we can work to please God with the hope we will be acceptable to him when we are brought before the judge. Vengeance is mine said the Lord. I am a jealous God.
Christianity, following Jesus is just to hard for some, Jesus never said it was a rose garden.
” Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? ”
I am sorry your friends judged God to harsh for them to worship, but what was it God asked Job something like “Where were you when I created the universe?” (who are you to judge me?) We can’t recreate God in our image, he created us in his.
I pray you can let go of the past and look to the future, relish obedience , and reject rebellion. it has been informative, but I’m through God bless.
Amen Royce. I have met more good CofC Christians in the 7 years since joining a Church of Christ who tell me that they aren’t assured of a place in heaven than in the previous 52 years of my life in the Church. That has to come from somewhere, some teaching that they have had in the Church of Christ.
Ogle said, “Since there is no firm answer to questions based on a lie there is no assurance.”
“Only faith in Christ our Lord alone will bring peace and assurance.”
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
We have to fight the good fight until the end, We can’t just be baptized, and become lethargic, lazy, lukewarm and not expect to be spewed out of his mouth. God does not lie.
hank said,
Do you honestly believe that most people in the cofc teach that one can live his “whole long life doing good and living right but slip up and curse or make a slip and then die the next minute and be sent to hell”? Seriously, from where do you gather such information?
Hank I do not know about most, I can only speak for my small area in North Alabama, but in this area it is the a view that is widely held. So much in fact that I know of Elders 20 year old children who have told me they worry that they might “accidentally” sin, not know it, and forget to confess it, thereby going to hell.
I have also been told that they are afraid that they might worship incorrectly without knowing it, and damn themselves. It is a real issue at least in my area.
Good grief! When you came up out of that watery grave you became a “new creature in Christ Jesus”…2 Corinthians 5:17. Paul said that “old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.” What is it about this passage is it that you do not understand?
Peter said at Pentecost to those three thousand who repented and were baptized for the remission of sins that the PROMISE is to you and to your children and those that are affar off.” God backs His words with a promise. Your subjective feelings are as worthless as a three dollar bill! God is not interested in how you feel about His sacrifice of Jesus dying on a cross for the sins of mankind. He did not send out a questionnaire asking man what he thought of this unblimished sacrifice.
It takes professional help to miss the plan of salvation, If you do not want to accept God’s gift and “promise” on His terms I suggest you walk with those leaving, because you are an enemy within the camp of the righteous.
Hank,
One of the examples used is the rich young ruler that Jesus saw coming and loved.
He had followed the commandments all his life and wanted to be with Jesus.
Out of his life, he did one thing wrong. He was unhappy about having to sell all he had to follow Jesus and its taught he was lost because of it right then.
( I have a different take)
As Johnny said, that is the teaching around here. To teach otherwise will get you withdrawn from quickly. Well, you would not be allowed to have that in your class outline in order to teach a class.
Going down front at the invitation and getting forgiven is hard to put off until we meet again.
Wonder why so many are leaving?
Johnny wrote: “Hank I do not know about most, I can only speak for my small area in North Alabama, but in this area it is the a view that is widely held. So much in fact that I know of Elders 20 year old children who have told me they worry that they might “accidentally” sin, not know it, and forget to confess it, thereby going to hell.
I have also been told that they are afraid that they might worship incorrectly without knowing it, and damn themselves. It is a real issue at least in my area.”
Yes…my experiences (in a different state even) was just like Johnny’s. These are the hallmark teachings of a CofC.
Alabama John, said,” its taught he was lost because of it right then.”
John, if they teach this, they are wrong.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus went through all the things God had commanded us to do to be saved.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Look at the question that was asked of Jesus–“what good thing shall I do”, that I may have eternal life? Well since he had done everything else, he was lacking this one thing, if he had done this he would be saved by his on good works, he would have been perfect in God’s eyes. but he was lacking, just like the rest of us, so he could not get there on his own, he needs Jesus. I don’t see where this story said this man was lost and had no chance of being saved, just that he couldn’t do it on his own.
I’m not saying you guys haven’t come across some people with some drastic beliefs, but to claim that such is a Hallmark teaching of “most” of the cofc is absurd.
You speak of things as if they are certain while having no real way of substantiating your claims.
No more absurd and unsubstantiated than your position denying it Hank.
What evidence can you provide that refutes what we are stating?
Hank,
From our latest tar-baby discussion together, I asked you these questions… “Would you please tell me what is “enough”? You see, what I see you doing is setting the stage where people are always unsure about their salvation because they question if they have done “enough”. I don’t deny that Christians need to be doing the things you listed from Matthew:25 but does the individual Christian need to doing all of them, some of them or just one individual work? After all, Christians are meant to live in community so what seems apparent to me is that the community needs to be doing these works communionally, not that the individual be doing all of them. Jesus certainly didn’t want his followers to live in the painted corner of fear where you seem to be trying to put them. ” So I had almost concluded that you had what you now term as “drastic beliefs” and I’m suprised now to hear you argue that few in the Church of Christ believe this way. What your beliefs concerning the security of a Christians salvation?
And, if you respond with a list of questions for me…. I’m withdrawing from the tar-baby.
I’ve been associated with seven different CofC’s during my lifetime (and I figure I’m more than 1/2 way through maybe more) and they all taught the same doctrine. Some more aggressively than others, but nonetheless everyone was on the “same page” about these doctrines. These beliefs were not considered drastic. Drastic beliefs in my neck of the woods were beliefs like one cup, no Sunday school, not supporting children’s homes, etc. The congregations I was associated with were considered mainstream.
You are right though, since there are no printed tenets, it’s just my understanding against your assertion. Based on what I’ve read on this blog alone, I’m thinking I’m not alone.
Let me weigh in too. I have been involved in 7 different churches of Christ over 30 years and I can attest that the vast majority of the teaching is on pure doctrine and behavior. In the course of my time I taught 2 classes on grace and both times I had numerous people come up to me and say they NEVER have heard a class on grace in the entire Christian life. At one church when I taught the class, one of the deacons rebuked me because I was teaching grace. I don’t know about all churches of Christ but I do know out of the 7 I attended, little grace was present. And based upon some of the responses on this site I can several several individuals who don’t understand grace.
“It takes professional help to miss the plan of salvation…”
>>>
Just like what it takes to cobble together such a “plan” out of a concatenation of disparate scriptures while ignoring other inconvenient passages which are plainly on point.
Nancy, my experience is as yours. I experienced both the NE Arkansas/Harding group and the Greater Atlanta group. It is only in the last few years that my CoC friends have even begun to speak of grace and fellowship with other groups outside of the CoC.
Usually when a CoC community has to try and convince other CoC communities that they really aren’t what everybody believes them to be, they usually are very much what their reputation suggests. However, the incredulity experienced by the CoC communities pales in comparison to that felt by the faith heritages outside of the CoC.
I can only imagine that it must be incredibly difficult for those whose salvation is based on performance to admit that they might have been wrong. If only they could move past the feeling of shame and condemnation of their mistakes to feel the compassion, love, mercy and Grace of the One who died to forgive them in advance.
Once a man tried to reason with a pig about astronomy. There is a reason it didn’t go well.
Price wrote: “I can only imagine that it must be incredibly difficult for those whose salvation is based on performance to admit that they might have been wrong. ”
That’s the rub…if you’re salvation is based on your own “rightness” then there is no room to be wrong. You have to be right.
Royce, you’re right.
Laymond… Think about what you are saying before you say it… The Romans 11 passages… Why should I be afraid of God…Only if I completely turn my back on him and go off and worship another God and totally disregard His teachings.. Isn’t that why Israel was cut off? Isn’t that why they were sent off to captivity ?? If you’re thinking daily about abandoning any hope whatsoever in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit…perhaps then you should be afraid.. But, I “consider the kindness of God” and put my complete hope in Him. “Of whom shall I be afraid? If God is for me, who can be against me?” Did God come and die for us so that He could take revenge on us when we made a mistake.. Are you really thinking this through?
On a positive note:
You can’t attack and solve a problem unless you are willing to recognize and identify the problem.
More and more I see folks openly stating the problem and that boldness is catching.
Some just move to a church a little more liberal and some make the big jump to one far more liberal and they react like the women on TV that have left a cult. Still, others remain because of family.
The good thing is all are admitting they were wrong and that is step number one.
Good change is coming and sites like this one is sure helping.
All of you on here have sure had a part and far more are copying your posts and passing them around than you realize.
Thank you Jay for this forum where people can openly say what’s on their hearts and read others saying the same thing!
As a practicing minister from Tennessee, Mississippi, Texas and Virginia I can say that when counseling with older Christians – especially facing their end – there was much more fear and uncertainty than surity of their salvation. Now I am not sure that this is because we taught that they needed to be worried, but I do think it was because we seemed to demand so many things as necessary for salvation that any thoughtful person would get concerned that they had missed one or two.
We may not have taught a need to be worried to the last minute but we also seem not to have taught any reasonable standard of “blessed assurance” which could provide comfort for those journeying the “valley of death.”
Surely faithfulness to Scripture requires us to balance the need towarn others to be “faithful to death” with the knowledge that they possess salvation now because of what Jesus has already done for us.
Lamond,
Are your serious? Do you really believe we are arguing to support laziness and lethargy. Our position on grace leads to more motivation than fear could ever accomplish. Paul says in I Corinthians 15:10 that grace was his prime motivator.
Besides, you quote Matthew 10:34 out of context. Jesus was referring to the disruption in families when one member believes and the others don’t. Jesus is not referring to a fear based relationship with God. You not only have misunderstood our grace arguments, you appear to be pushing fear and insecurity as our primary motivation.
Laymond,
You know I believe the young ruler was unhappy because he came wanting to follow Jesus NOW just as the Apostles did. They didn’t have to wait, just dropped the nets and walked off. He on the other hand had a lot to sell and so he was still obedient and went back and got rid of everything. He came running back to Jesus naked with only a linen (expensive) cloth about him after being obedient to Jesus. Mark 14:51-52.
What an injustice we have done this young man in my opinion.
The fear in many of our older members of being lost is a real thing and will not be helped by pretending the situation doesn’t exist. The false teaching that God is going to either allow or disallow people into his heaven based on how good or bad they have lived, if they were members of the right church, if they believed all the right stuff, and were “faithful” can only lead to fear and uncertainty. There is no objective standard for self achieved righteousness, thus one can never be sure. If the traditional teaching is indeed true why did Jesus come and die the death he died?
We sing of a far more loving God than we preach.
Todd, I have to admit that the time in my life at which I clearly recall being the most angry was when I was a CoC preacher in West Texas. I was sitting at the bedside of one of these dear saints as she left this earth. I held her hand and listened to this godly sister fret and tremble as she said over and over, “I just hope I’ve done enough to get into heaven…”
I wanted to leave the room, get in my car, track down the first preacher of our denomination I could find, and beat him senseless with his own Thompson Chain Reference.
I make no excuse for that ungodly emotion. But with all the opportunities I have had to get angry about things I experienced in life and in the church, over injustices real or imagined, this is absolutely the only time in my life I ever found myself trembling with rage. When our doctrines bear such ungodly fruit as to steal the very comfort of the arms of Jesus from a dying sister who has been “faithful unto death”, these teachings and their pompous proponents deserve more fire than I have wood to kindle.
Royce, your observation reminds me of a story:
A physics professor sat on a park bench next to a pigeon who had a damaged wing. Absently, he began to explain to the bird in great detail just WHY he could not fly. He talked about lateral instability preventing controllable flight, explained the reduction in essential power-to-weight ratios and the crucial nature of feather rotation in creating lift, and wound up his lecture with a quick summary of Bernoulli’s principle. The bird looked at him quizzically, then beat his wings frantically, got awkwardly off the ground and lumbered into the branches of a nearby tree with a bit of a crash. The professor said, “Stupid bird.”
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This does not mean you can live a sinful life and be saved through the blood of Christ. You will be judged on the fruit you yield.
Royce Jesus , the Son of God was sacrificed, so that mankind could start anew, have a second chance, live a different life a sin free, start. but if you think Jesus accepts sin any more so than his Father you are wrong. Yes we will all sin, it surely needs to be unintentional, deliberate sin is a no-no God forbid. When God forbids a thing and you deliberately do it, you will pay the price, one way or another. You can pay the small price of a repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness, or the wages of sin death.
Charles said, “I held her hand and listened to this godly sister fret and tremble as she said over and over, “I just hope I’ve done enough to get into heaven…”
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
quote again, “I wanted to leave the room, get in my car, track down the first preacher of our denomination I could find, and beat him senseless”
Charles I bet Paul was quaking in his sandals. Yeah there are times when being a preacher is not all that much fun. But if you lie to a person on their death bed, I don’t know how you will ever ask their forgiveness.
Laymond, you appear to overreact. No one is arguing you can sin it up and go to heaven. No one on this blog is advocating cheap grace. What many of us are saying is that a) No one is good enough to earn forgiveness (Our righteous deeds are as filthy rags), b) We are saved only by the grace of God (not by works lest any man should boast), c) The churches of Christ have missed this message for decades, d) Many CoC members live in constant fear and/or guilt worrying if they have done enough.
Recall Matthew 7:2 “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” If we are given to drawing lines and judging the works of others, God will use the same standard with us.
You appear scared to embrace grace for fear that you are somehow compromising.
Laymond said: “When God forbids a thing and you deliberately do it, you will pay the price, one way or another. ” You will pay the price?? No, Jesus has already paid the price. Your appropriate response is to gratefully accept that your debt has been paid for by someone else. Laymond, you might not be able to accept that Jesus has paid for even your deliberate sin but what an amazing peace will be yours if you are able to do this. The acts of a “repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness” once again places the debt payment on us, not Jesus. God and Jesus already know if we are repentant or not because they know our hearts. These acts of contrition seem to be more for us than for God and His Son. Placing a demand upon Christians to repent, pray and confess for every intentional or unintentional sin is a legalistic approach to the forgiveness of sins and it is not that for which Christ died. Amazing Grace… how sweet the sound.
I left a word out of the following sentence and it should read as follows:
Laymond, you might not be able to accept that Jesus has already paid for even your deliberate sin but what an amazing peace will be yours if you are able to do this.
I’m thinking we need a post on evaluative judgment. Yes, there are consequences for our sin(s).
Skip says:
Laymond, you appear to overreact. No one is arguing you can sin it up and go to heaven. No one on this blog is advocating cheap grace.
Skip maybe you should read Doug’s last post. sounds like you can sin without any cost , to me.
Doug says:
Laymond said: “When God forbids a thing and you deliberately do it, you will pay the price, one way or another. ” You will pay the price?? No, Jesus has already paid the price. Your appropriate response is to gratefully accept that your debt has been paid for by someone else.
Laymond,
Of course there are costs associated with sin. When I work with people who are Christians who have previously lived a sinful life, the costs are both physically and mentally evident. I have costs in my life because of sin and most any Christian, if they are honest, will admit that they have paid or are paying a price for their sinful activity. But, they can still live a joyful life without fear of a vengeful God waiting to pounce on them because they omitted or forgot to repent for a sin. The ONLY was that you can live life in this manner is if your costs are already paid. Your and my pitiful attempt at paying the for the cost of righteousness isn’t going to cut it. How you can read anything that I wrote and claim that I said a person could sin without cost, either in this life or the next, is absurd.
The relationship of a true believer to God is that of Father and son (child). Now when Father has to take the child out to the woodshed, he doesn’t kill him or boot him out of the family or his inheritance isn’t taken away. No, he lovingly disciplines his own, for their benefit.
Of course this analogy only applies to those who actually believe that a Christian is only one who has been born again (from above) and is literally a child of God. Those who see God as a hot tempered tyrant who will damn a subject over the most trivial error will not understand the family relationships of the people of God. Note: Because a thing is spiritual it is none the less real.
Royce…good illustration. Heb 12:6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Doug…it’s the flaw of the Merit Salvation System… Do bad merit Hell…Do good, merit Heaven.. But, since the formulation of how much sin damns or how much good saves is totally missing from scripture, they must live in constant fear. They think that at the judgement it’s going to be what they’ve done to merit salvation that’s going to get them in… I don’t know how in the world they derive that from scripture but they do. It’s Judaism light. Jesus only saves you if you have a score of 75% or above on your sin final exam. Jesus came to seek and save those that barely needed saving… If you REALLY have issues, well, you might as well hang it up…
I like Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith(not works), we have peace (not fear) with God through our Lord Jesus Christ , through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not merit) in which we stand (not guess), and rejoice (not moan) in hope of the glory of God. (my addition)
(my addition)
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Price,
I wasn’t aware of how pervasive this “merit salvation” thinking was in the Church of Christ when I placed membership in one. But it didn’t take long until I began to see it. One of the first instances occurred while talking to a deacon at my church. He told me that he just didn’t know if he had done enough to go to heaven and that he just wasn’t sure that he would make it into heaven. And, he said this with great sadness. How can the Church of Christ expect to grow and flourish when the leadership feels this way? That is why we are talking about this in the first place. It appears to me that a whole generation or two of church leaders might have to disappear before the Church of Christ can right its’ ship and begin to grow again. as a group. If Jay is correct, the Progressive side of the Church has about cannabilized as much as it’s going to get so it appears the membership of the Church of Christ could continue to dwindle for some time to come.
Maybe, the progressives can progress some more and then “cannibalize” the current progressives? Just a thought…
“Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.” — Mark Twain
THE BIBLE,
A simple story made complicated by man.
Bible simply means book, The Holy Bible is a book of stories and instructions. The bible tells of mankind’s struggle with “Good and Evil” . Man had no such struggle as long as they were exposed only to God. But God being God, a mighty God , left open one way in which he could judge his creation, as to whether it was a good creation or an evil one.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
But when one judges their own work , naturally it will be judged “good” or it could not be judged completed.
So instead of God making the final judgment, he let his creation judge itself, self judgment, and he gave them the tools by which to do so.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Yes God equipped man with “freewill” the ability to obey what he had been told, or not. As we see in chap 3, man chose to disobey. And the battle guidelines were set. Man against God, Now comes the stories of man fighting with god, well we know how that will eventually turn out, now don’t we. We have examples of that happening in stories like, Jonah, Noah, Moses, Sampson, Sodom and Gomorrah on and on it goes.
All this started because one man disobeyed one command from God. God won’t make the final judgment this time either but , he has appointed one who will, and the Son, will be looking after his Father’s interest.
So yes, I take intentional disobedience very serious, and maybe others should also.
Laymond’s words about people going to hell are not nearly so troubling to me as the deep sense of satisfaction that is evident in them.
Charles, what I think, and what satisfies me, shouldn’t even be on your radar. I speak for me. Where do you think I said I was happy you are going to hell. Tragedy never makes me happy. And the state of the Church, is tragic, it makes me very sad when I sit and think about it.
Charles do you think Jesus is happy with the results of his sacrifice?
As someone said up the chain,( we don’t owe God anything, Jesus already paid us out, so enjoy it) Doug May 1, 2012 at 2:56 pm.
Laymond, you are so imbued with legalism and merit based salvation that you interpret blog comments as a license for sin. I have known members like you before. You have a high standard for Christian performance that you want to lay on others but you probably don’t live up to it yourself? 1) Do you obey this command in scripture: “Confess your sins to one another”: When was the last time you confessed your personal sin to someone in the Church? Do you do this on a regular basis since it is a command? 2) “Go and make disciples”: When was the last time you met a non- Christian, shared the plan of salvation with them, and baptized them into Christ? Do you do this on a regular basis since it is a command? 3) Matthew speaks of clothing and feeding the hungry and poor or going to hell: When was the last time you went to a homeless shelter and fed and clothed someone?
My guess is that you have lots of theories about being a Christian and like to blog about them but you don’t comprehend the ramifications of your one sided twist on scripture.
Skip,
I do believe Jesus is speaking to the Apostles here. If you show where this applies to me I surely will start out.
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father —–.
I don’t see anything about homeless shelters either– just give to the poor, there are many ways to do this, and I try.
I confess sins every night, sometimes during the day, to the one against whom I sin. whether it be God (most of the time it is God) but I ask forgiveness of those who believe I sin against them.
It seems fair to me to say you may have sinned against both God and me by your judgment of someone you do not know. Forgive him Lord he knows not what he does it is just the guilt and anger speaking..
I don’t believe I personally have ever judged anyone here as going to hell. I only repeat God’s words which will be our judge at the end. I don’t believe I have ever said “I do all things right” if I knew that, I could be as confident as you are that you are saved, no matter what you do. I am not the judge, but I have hope. as Paul said that is what we have. Hope.
And as for my one sided twist on scripture, there is only one side to scripture, we don’t get to pick and choose. I don’t see any maybes, or buts in there
Laymond,
I think Jesus is very happy with the results of his sacrifice. 1000’s worldwide are being saved daily especially in countries like India. Can we all grow more? Sure. Does a sovereign God understand that many will never be saved and many will be lukewarm? Sure. Is Jesus satisfied with his sacrifice? I believe his sacrifice is full and complete and he is satisfied. Does he expect us to be sinless? Of course not.
Skip said, “Does he expect us to be sinless?” and then he answered the question. ” Of course not.”
These are just a few scriptures that readily come to mind.
Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Skip, I can’t vouch for what Jesus thinks, but I know what he said, do you think he said ” sin no more.” just as a flippant thoughtless jester.?
And this was before he had to die because man had sinned. It seems to me he might be even more adament now.
Alexander said, “You seem not to get my point. It’s the flesh that wants to know the exact number of commands to keep,”
>>>
And we continue to keep talking past one another, I fear. You attribute this motivation to my question by assumption, instead of just asking me “Why do you ask such a question?” I know that would take a lot more humility, asking me what I think instead of telling me, but it can be a surprisingly good way to get to the actual truth of the matter.
When a fellow keeps telling me what underlies what I say without ever asking me what underlies what I say, I want him see his mind-reading credentials.
Laymond, So you actually believe that someone can live a sinless life today? There has never been a person in history who was sinless! Yet you believe Jesus expects, believes, and anticipates that we will be sinless now. I guess God and Jesus have their hopes dashed every second. I believe it is God’s will that we don’t sin but I also know that God is omniscient and thus knows we will sin otherwise we will outgrow our need for Jesus. Thus God does not expect us to be sinless because he knows we will fall into sin the rest of our lives. Perhaps you misunderstand what I mean by “expect”. I believe it is God’s will that we sin not but I also believe that God knows we will sin and thus God does not expect that anyone will live a sinless life. Hopefully we grow in purity and in holiness but that doesn’t mean we will be sinless. Surely you understand that.
These verses seemingly contradict yours so I guess in a scripture quoting contest we are tied. Hopefully that is not your goal. It certainly isn’t mine.
Proverbs 20:9 “Who can say, I am without sin”
John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
I John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
Hey Laymond,
Don’t forget to repent and confess about misquoting me before you go to sleep tonight. That could be the sin that does you in.
Hey Doug,
Don’t worry about how you come across, its not like God’s grace wont cover it..
Hank, I hope I come across as having a sense of humor. Still waiting for you to answer my questions. -:)
Doug, I must admit that I was paraphrasing with what I said, but please tell me the difference in meaning from what I said to what you said.
Verbatim quote, “No, Jesus has already paid the price. Your appropriate response is to gratefully accept that your debt has been paid for by someone else. Laymond, you might not be able to accept that Jesus has paid for even your deliberate sin but what an amazing peace will be yours if you are able to do this. The acts of a “repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness” once again places the debt payment on us, not Jesus”
,( we don’t owe God anything, Jesus already paid us out, so enjoy it) .as you might notice I placed parentheses around my paraphrase, not quotation marks.
Skip asked, Does he expect us to be sinless? and I answered with a yes, and scripture to prove Jesus expects us to “sin no more” Skip begins to hem-haw and change his question. Maybe you should make your questions clear from the beginning, and we could get to the answer sooner.
Laymond, Please explain this in light of your view that God expects us to be sinless. Paul says,
I Timothy 1:15 “Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.”
Paul says that he is the worst of sinners – present tense. Then Paul says,
II Timothy 4:8 “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing”
Paul acknowledges he is the worst of sinners and at the same time fully expects the crown of righteousness. If your view is correct that God expects and demands sinless perfection then how do we ever get that crown since we are always sinners? Thank God that we are justified by the blood of Christ and not by our perfection.
Skip, it seems you can’t quote me without adding your words to mine.
“If your view is correct that God expects and demands sinless perfection then how do we ever get that crown since we are always sinners?”
Where did I say Jesus demands sinless perfection?
Skip, can you explain what committing a sin means in you opinion, and do you think God will accept those who willingly commit sin after sin after having been forgiven past sins. Please explain how you could claim being “in Jesus” if one is doing this on purpose. does Jesus allow intentional sin within his body?
do you say unrepentant sinners have a path to heaven? as Doug seems to say (my understanding of what he wrote.) about intentional sin.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Seems to me that Jesus thought not all people were sinners.
Laymond,
The difference between what I wrote and what you paraphased is this:
You said “we don’t owe God anything”… I did not say that. I would never say that. I believe that we owe God and Jesus much more than we could ever repay no matter how great our works in His name.
You said ” Jesus already paid us out, so enjoy it)”. I did not say that either. You imply here that I said a Christian could do nothing in response to his debts being paid by the sacrifice of Jesus. I said “Your appropriate response is to gratefully accept that your debt has been paid for by someone else”. That means that Jesus has already paid the debt you owe and not only that but it is paid in full, once and for all. Greatful acceptance also means that a Christian begins to live a faithful life reflecting Jesus and yes, that means he/she does work that reflects Christ in her/him. But, the main point I was trying to make is the debt you and I owe because of sin in our life has already been paid by the sacrifice of Jesus over 2000 years ago.. no amount of “works” or repentance/confession by us can change this fact. You might see some connection between our works and this fact but I don’t. I see this as wholly the work of Jesus, not us.
Doug,
If you could ask your questions clearly, I would be glad to address them. I re-read what you had written, and it was difficult to know exactly what you were asking.
Doug, I believe I have referred you to this scriptural verse once before, but it seemed not to make a difference in what you believe.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I do believe I am fighting a battle in futility, but I am a stubborn old cuss, especially when it comes to the salvation of a soul.
If we accept the sacrifice of Jesus as our salvation, and Jesus as our lord, as he asked why do you not do what I tell you to do.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, (warning added) and doeth them, —-.
You see what we do counts , or do you still not believe that.
Doug, I believe what you are describing is written about in rom 8. Particularly vs 3-4. We couldn’t do it right so god sent Jesus to fulfill the requirement on our behalf. Our duty then is to focus our attention on the things of the spirit and not the flesh. However the debt/righteous requirement has already been paid in full. Yea God.
Laymond,
Most bible scholars and commentators say that Hebrews 10:26-27 is not refering to an occasional act of sin but rather to a complete falling away from God. That is, a willful rejection of God and His provision through Jesus Christ for a Christians salvation. I agree with them on this. If a person rejects salvation through the spilt blood of Jesus, God isn’t going to provide some other means for them to be saved. This is completely diferent and in a totally different category than a Christian committing an occasional act of sin.
Laymond,
Too many issues to cover them all but I will address a couple: You said, “I do believe Jesus is speaking to the Apostles here. If you show where this applies to me I surely will start out.”
Jesus is speaking to the apostles and he says “teach them to obey everything I have commanded you”, therefore we are also commanded to go and make disciples. So you better start out.
“I confess sins every night, sometimes during the day, to the one against whom I sin. whether it be God (most of the time it is God) but I ask forgiveness of those who believe I sin against them.” The James 5:16 verse doesn’t say only to only apologize to others but to confess sins to others.
My whole point in the illustration with the above scriptures is that we can’t ever live a life of sinless perfection because we are human and in a fallen world. We can always be perfect in God’s eyes through the blood of Christ. This has been my argument all along. You seem to communicate that we should be accused and burdened with the pressure of being sinless. Isn’t it better to be absorbed with the love of Christ than trying to satisfy a spiritual performance check list daily? I may have misread your intent but you seem to push a guilt driven form of Christianity over the blissful peace that Christ promised.
“Jesus paid us out, so why not enjoy it?” is an error in thought already clearly addressed in scripture. Paul covered this directly in Romans 6, and he did so without limiting the reach of grace, and without retreating to a “grace, only if you do right” sort of doctrine. Laymond, how would you summarize Paul’s answer to this old, and still foolish, idea which you are attributing to Doug?
I heard a story once that illustrates the difference between the grace motive or the guilt motive. Two boys stood with rocks in hand in front of an empty house with many windows. They were debating whether to to break the windows. One boy said, “If I break a window, my dad will kill me.”. The other boy said, “If I break a window, it will kill my dad.” The first boy refrained because of fear. Obviously the second boy refrained because of his Father’s love. The high Christian road is to live my life deeply in love with a gracious God who has redeemed me with the blood of Christ. My love will guide me towards a holy life. The low road is to live my life with a pervading sense of guilt always fearing that I am falling short.
Let me say, I am not just picking on Doug, Skip and Price seem to agree with Doug whole heartedly. (IMO)
Doug says: May 1, 2012 at 2:56 pm
“The acts of a “repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness” once again places the debt payment on us, not Jesus. God and Jesus already know if we are repentant or not because they know our hearts.” (is this saying there is no need to pray for forgiveness?)
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Laymond,
You quoted me correctly this time:
“The acts of a “repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness” once again places the debt payment on us, not Jesus. God and Jesus already know if we are repentant or not because they know our hearts.”
Then you said: (is this saying there is no need to pray for forgiveness?)
In the context of what was being discussed (the necessity of a repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness… Laymond’s words), what I said means that a Christian doesn’t need to live in fear that some occasional act of sin which is forgotten and not repented of through prayer will result in him/her going to hell. You can’t reach any other conclusion than this from reading Romans 7:13 – 8:11. In fact, if one reaches another conclusion, they are in danger of living by law or walking according to the flesh because they place their trust in their own deeds instead of in Jesus’ saving sacrifice. If Paul couldn’t do it, then Doug and Laymond can’t do it either.
Charles asked me to comment on Romans 6.
Charles, I believe I have already refferenced Romans 6.
laymond says: May 1, 2012 at 9:34 am
Let’s look again at what you first said,on May 1, 2012 at 2:56 pm
The acts of a “repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness” once again places the debt payment on us, not Jesus. God and Jesus already know if we are repentant or not because they know our hearts. These acts of contrition seem to be more for us than for God and His Son. Placing a demand upon Christians to repent, pray and confess for every intentional or unintentional sin is a legalistic approach to the forgiveness of sins and it is not that for which Christ died.
Let’s look at what you now say to condone what you said.
In the context of what was being discussed (the necessity of a repentant heart, the bended knee and the tongue asking forgiveness… Laymond’s words), what I said means that a Christian doesn’t need to live in fear that some occasional act of sin which is forgotten and not repented of through prayer will result in him/her going to hell.
Doug I doubt that any rational grownup would see these two statements as meaning the same.
Laymond… Huh?? I think they say the same exact thing.
Charles, our boys made contact today! Seems that your young fellow taught my son’s “speech” class last year so they were already acqainted. Please encourage your boy to rope mine and his fiance into assemblies on Sundays. They’ve had difficulties connecting.
Doug, if that is what you really believe, that explains alot, we will never be on the same page.
If someone does not understand grace then they can’t fathom being forgiven for sins they haven’t yet confessed.
Laymond, What I wrote is obviously what I believe. I do practice repentence, confession (even to other Christians sometimes), and prayer for forgiveness. But, I don’t carry around a notebook in order to keep a list of of my sins and I don’t fear death. I know I don’t fear death because I once thought my time of death was rapidly upon me and I was ready to go. And, I wasn’t trying to recall any sins that I hadn’t prayed about, I was just wondering what was next. That was over 20 years ago and that experience opened me up to a lot of different ministries than I had ever anticipated. Blessings…
“ever anticipated” should have been “never anticipated”
Whoever that said makes the same mistake as the ones who try to “quanztify” their works. THey ask How many works are enough to save me, and the same way: What’s if I miss out on a confession. Both are valid concerns in the sense that we never really do everything we ought to do, and some sins we do without even knowing it.
Yet even for these sins – as soon as one became aware of them – the Jews had to offer a sacrifice for reconciliation.
If we however use such questions is order to belittle obedience and confession of sins, then we use our eakness as a weapon against God’s word: “He knows that we can#t do it, so He does not really require it from us.” This is to say: God does not mean what He says, and His conditions are not really conditions, but rather … an exaggeration (?).
Reading scripture this way may affirm our desire for more or less unconditial security, but they ignore the wording of God’s word. I cannot go that way. I strive to take my Lord as seriously as He expressed Himself, taking His word for granted be it a blessing, a promise, a curse or a warning, a condition or a gift.
Christ is very clear, for instance: If we don’t forgive others, we won#t be forgiven either. He said that so often, illustrated it with a shocking story, that I cannot but understand that as a foundational condition for salvation. If we miss that, we miss everything. And there are a few (!) more such conditions, that I cannot paint over with a softer theology. Call that leaglism, if you want – I call it reading abilities.
Alexander
Alexander…. so you’re saying you will burn in hell for all eternity for that one sin of unforgiveness ? I mean if you say that because Jesus said he wouldn’t forgive you then you can live an otherwise absolutely perfect life, be angry at someone and refuse to forgive them and live forever separated from God.. Just clarifying my understanding of your argument… One sin=hell
We are not reconciled to God by how effectively or completely we forgive others, pray, repent, etc. We “were” reconciled to God by the death of Jesus (Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Colossians 1:22) We “are” now reconciled to God by the death of his son. So now we can appeal to sinners to be reconciled to God through Christ alone. There is no reconciliation of a sinner to God any other way. Man has no platform, no defense, no merit of his own. That is why there can be no boasting by those who are saved. They have nothing to boast about because they didn’t do anything to effect their salvation which is God’s work.
Royce, how can one be reconciled through Jesus Christ, if they don’t care enough to do as he asked?
Alex, as you said these people are not arguing with you and me, they just don’t take the bible that seriously, if the bible is to be believed, then what Jesus said is also. The grace only crowd says people who believe in what Jesus said, just don’t understand grace. And “grace only” is exactly what some folks on this comment section is arguing. Alex I believe you understand grace and what it entails, and so do I. I know we can not earn the death of one of God’s sons to save others. That would be placing many sons, over the one. which is not the case as a matter of fact it is just the opposite, how was Jesus placed in charge, He earned it. How are we to receive the OK by Jesus on that faithful day ? we will earn it through obedience to Jesus,Just as Jesus earned it through obedience to God. Jesus earned the position he now holds, and you will earn the position you receive, good or bad.
Todd, that would be my nephew, Seth. (His dad’s the white sheep, I’m the other one.) I’ll try to pass the word along. Quaker Avenue has some truly thoughtful folks in leadership, not the usual Texas Hardshell variety. But it’s a non-Sunday school group, go figure.
Thanks, Laymond, I went back and read your comment. Apparently, we are reading different books. Sorry for the confusion.
NOOOOOOOOOO
Stop qunatifying obedience, Price! You simply don’t understand, what it’s about!
It’s about attitude! It’s a huge difference, whether I overlook something or whether I DELIBERATELY IGNORE/REJECT something.
We have to take God’s conditions VERY seriously – if we don’t, we might fool ourselves into “sancified lawlessness”. After all: If I once decided not to forgive, how obout twice or three times? When is there an end to grace? Got my point? It’s about a TOTALLY wrong approach.
Alexander
Alexander, I wrote the paragraph that you referenced initially in your post. It was in response to what Jay said about Yeakey’s book and the Church of Christ teaching that christians cannot know if we are saved.
If you’d read my post of 5/3/2012 @10:24 you’d see how I put this into practice. I’m not saying that Christians should ignore obediance and confession but rather that God doesn’t require perfect performance in these things for salvation. We live by grace and not law. Your reference to Jewish law is unconvincing to me.
It seems to me that many on this blog like to take things to the extreme. They would say, if a person believes in salvation through the grace of God that means they don’t believe a Christian should have works or practice repentance, confessions and prayer. I haven’t said or indicated that. However, my bible tells me that salvation is by the grace of God not by my personal works or the perfection of my confessions, repentance or prayers. God knows me better than I know myself so my works, my obediance, my repentance, my confessions, my prayers seem more designed to help me than to inform God about what I have done or left undone. He already knows all of that… of what I have done and what I have left undone. Indeed, the prayer of David in Psalms 139:23-24 conveys this very thought. We are the ones who ask God to show us our weaknesses, we don’t have to tell Him about them… He knows.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Do you remember the Columbine High School massacre. that occurred on Tuesday, April 20, 1999.
I know that is asking a lot that far back. But I still remember one specific story that came from that godless act. I remember this young lady, who was asked by one of the killers “do you believe in Jesus” she answered “yes” and then he shot and killed her.
If these killers had been taught to believe in Jesus and the word of God this awful incident would never have happened. But that said, I have no doubt what-so-ever that young lady will see God through Jesus Christ. Now I do believe all who claim belief and trust in Jesus have to obey his commands just as this young lady did, and to the same extent. give your life for Jesus if ask, he gave his for you.
No Christianity is not always a smooth road, but we can’t avoid the rough spots just because we don’t like them. we can’t make up our own rules, and play in the same game as Jesus and this young lady plays in, just can’t do it. If you don’t like the rules of the game, and you take your ball and go home, you wind up with a ball, and no friends.
Alexander wrote, “Stop qunatifying obedience, Price! You simply don’t understand, what it’s about!
It’s about attitude! It’s a huge difference, whether I overlook something or whether I DELIBERATELY IGNORE/REJECT something.”
>>>
So we are only damned for one INTENTIONAL act, Alexander? Or one ungodly attitude? You are not helping your argument. Oddly, the fact that some of us do not buy your argument does not mean we lack the capacity to understand it. I do understand it. I have heard it for decades, and I used to preach it.
I think the argument Price is making (and I have as well) is not quite clear to you. (No offense intended.) We ask for quantification of sin in the same way that one reads the Law seeking for justification. The only reason to read the Law is to understand that we CANNOT attain justification by it. The reason we ask about quantifying sin is to point out (successfully so far) that it CANNOT be quantified, in the sense of causing us to be saved or lost. This, then, tells us that it is sin–not the kind or amount of sin– which signifies in terms of our being lost. The cure is Jesus. Continuing to threaten believers with damnation for disobedience means we are ALL damned, for we all disobey. Anyone who says he never disobeys God intentionally is at best deluding himself.
Laymond, in the context of how this discussion started, i.e. that the Churches of Christ teach that one cannot know for sure if they are saved, let’s visit the Columbine story and add a twist. Let’s imagine that this wonderful young Christian girl had gone out the night before her murder with her boyfried and lied to her mother about where she had been. She was tired when she got home and went to sleep without asking God for forgiveness for the sin of lying. When she got up the next morning, she was in a hurry to get to school and forgot to ask for forgivness once again. So when she was murdered, she had this unconfessed sin. Was she saved? I think that there are Christians in the Church of Christ who would have a hard tie saying “yes” to that question. They would have a hard time saying “yes” to that question if it was their life and not some young girl that was being considered. At best, they might say that God will have to decide that. If you believe in grace, you say “yes” without hesitation.
“Anyone who says he never disobeys God intentionally is at best deluding himself.”
Charles, at least some of us ask forgiveness for it.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
NLT – Mat 6:12 – and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
NLT – Mat 6:14 – “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
No one here has claimed sinlessness we have only been accused of it.
Doug, since her last act on earth was to obey Christ unto death, I can’t imagine all those things that seem to invade your world. As a matter of fact I think it might be a sin if I envisioned those things against one without a thread of proof. so I can’t play the “if game” as you say some would say, I leave judgment to Jesus in who’s hands God placed that authority. as I recall the story the young lady was praying, was the cause for the demonic question.
I might be wrong Doug, but I bet you would be praying also, if you were in her shoes. I could be wrong you might have a welcoming smile on your lips instead, since you know for sure where you are going.
Was she a member of the Church of Christ? Baptized correctly? If not, down here, the answer would be she was lost as she was above the age of accountability.
Its situations and the questions it brings that we are experiencing in life that makes so many today questioning our positions between interpreting law and grace.
In hard times and terrible circumstances the questioning begins and that is good.
This discussing and reconsidering is changing many minds about what they have been preached and change for the better toward grace and accepting others that we formerly would of condemned is very good.
What you all are writing on this blog is having a big influence and for all posting to cause reconsidering, THANK YOU!
No one has argued that once we are saved that we can sin it up and still go to heaven. We all appear to believe that we can’t deliberately keep on sinning without repenting and still go to heaven. The difference between Laymond, Alexander and the rest of us seems to be about what does grace cover. I could be wrong on this but it appears that Laymond and Alexander tend to believe that we have to keep track of all of our sins and constantly be confessing them in order to be forgiven for each one case by case. In other words, if I lust, I must confess that. If I speed, I must confess that etc… It appears to me that we would need a recorder and keep track of our hundreds of sins daily and then have a long confessional prayer at bedtime before we are assured we are forgiven for the day.
I don’t see any scriptures to support keeping records of sin and confessing the whole record. Each of us probably sins dozens of times per day. It is a command to be joyful always. If we have 10 moments without joy we are in sin according this legalistic rule. It is commanded to pray always. If we have any times where we are not praying then we are sinning. Wow, with this legalistic approach to grace and forgiveness we would need to quit our day jobs and confess sin all day long. I like a life of grace much better. My guess is that the many who have left the CoC are also looking for a place filled with grace.
Laymond, I said: “At best, they might say that God will have to decide that.”
Then you said: “I leave judgment to Jesus in who’s hands God placed that authority.”
I think you personally just confirmed what I said. I am sorry that you just can’t say “Yes”.
This drumbeat about constant repentance keeping us out of hell reminds me of the boy who was constantly saying “I’m sorry!” when caught in disobedience, in hopes his father would not spank him. Perhaps, if Dad had threatened him with death instead of a belt, Junior would be a more penitent and compliant child? That seems to be the form here, as we attribute the following to our heavenly Father: “Son, keep on repenting or so help me I will set you on fire!”
Every man, who believes this presents himself as a more loving and tolerant father than is God himself. For we would never speak to our own children this way, much less carry out such a dire threat– but we claim that God does it.
I did get the point, Charles! This “quantifying” of obedience is a cunning way to make the demand for obedience seem like an absurdity. This is based on numerous wrong assumptions:
a) That the Law is only given to reveal our sinfulness (quote: The only reason to read the Law is to understand that we CANNOT attain justification by it.)
b) That no one can keep the Law anyway
c) Therefore we are saved without any Law-keeping
This is theology, Charles, but not Scripture.
Those, Christ did not admit into His Kingdom in Mat 7:23 are doers of lawlessness. Disobedient Christians. Obedience is the Rock in which the house is to be built.
And of course you have to ask: “What are all the commands we are to learn to observe?”. If you put your head in the sand and pretend Christ requires nothing, or only “love” (and else do as you please) you may come up with a nice theology, but not with Christ’s words. So obedience is a requirement for salvation, and we have to be specific about it.
Now, the reason I don’t want to make lists and quantify the commands is twofold:
a) There are numerous commands in the NT but no exhaustive or systematic list
b) We are to LEARN to keep them, which points to a process of education which also includes errors, failures and the like … as well as time and patience and growth.
That’s why I say it’s more about an attitide, about the mind and heart of a disciple as it is described in Isaiah (for instance):
Such a person will never question the need of obedience, and will not ask “how much is enough”, and neither “what if I just sin once?” – because that’s not what is on his mind. He strives to live pleasingly to the Lord, knowing that if he stumbles, there is a sacrifice for sin. But the sacrifice is not an allowance for a luke warm walk, nor is it in itself all that is needed for salvation. Because we are saved to be submitted to a King. And there is no dispute about ANY of the Kings orders, but swift and accurate obedience with a loyal and joyful heart.
All this talk about “how much is enough” comes not from the heart of a disciple, but from misled Christians who believe that faith is all that is required for salvation. It is not.
Alexander
Laymonds comment on May 4, 2012 at 7:23 am, is one example of the worst theology/doctrine imaginable by someone who claims to be a Christian.
Unless I have missed something Alexander and Laymond and other so called conservatives are putting forth this premise. “We obey Christ’s commands and do it to the degree that we will be accepted by God as having been obedient. On the other hand those who disagree with us do not honor the Bible, are not obedient to Jesus, at least not to the point they will be accepted by God in the end”.
It is the sort of historical coc dogma that makes Jesus’ atonement insignificant and meaningless. After all, anyone who is sincere can say and practice the right things about water baptism and singing in the assembly and be obedient enough otherwise to be accepted by God.
This sort of nonsense is unChristian and is Christ rejection couched in religion. Alexander, do you agree with Laymond’s view of Jesus?
I don’t know what you have experiences, charles, but this is neither a correct description of
a) God
b) a disciple
c) the scriptural teaching of conditional salvation
You make up a huge straw man, a Halloween-Ghost, you cry out and warn angainst at the top of your lungs, but – hey! – that’s not what we are talking about!
Alexander
Alexander,
Just wanted to thank you for your well thought out and logical comments. I am sure thar the discerning readers here are able to the truth through all of the smoke.
Its funny how the people who keep on accusing people of believing one unconfessed sin damns, get all bent out of shape when asked at which point sin is no longer forgiven.
They know that being considered lukewarm by God make him sick… but they aren’t able to explain who (and at which point) God considers one to be lukewarm. They just know that they are not? Oh, okay..
There is no degree or limitation, Royce. A disciple does not go for a required minimum, but for all.
And I did not set out in this discussion to condemn others either. But God will judge, as He said in Christ (e.g. Mat 7:23). All judgement in the NT is always based on works never on words. I have a bad feeling when Christians start debating the necessity of works/obedience/fruit for salvation; it simply does not fit the idea and description of judgment. We can postpone this debate until that day to see who is right; but we are called to call to repentance. Not just once and be done with it, but for a life that strives to conform more and more to the word and character of God (which is: continual repantance, change of mind – as described in Rom 12:1-2).
It is the sort of historical coc dogma that makes Jesus’ atonement insignificant and meaningless. After all, anyone who is sincere can say and practice the right things about water baptism and singing in the assembly and be obedient enough otherwise to be accepted by God.
I did not allude to these BASICS, Royce. Let’s rather point to the Sermon on the Mount as a beginning. there is enough to chew on.
As far as I can see, no. But it is an opinion, based on inferences drawn from scripture. I believe the Trinitarian understanding is a far better conclusion, and I hold to it, because that’s how I see it in scripture and that’s the way the ECF saw it, too. I regard it as the historic faith. Yet, fellwoship is based on the word of God and not on inferences (as necessary as they sometimes may be).
Alexander
Alexander,
You said, “Obedience is the Rock in which the house is to be built.”. This is totally false doctrine. Actually our foundation is our relationship with Jesus Christ from which flows obedience.
I Corinthians 3:11 “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ”
I now understand why you don’t understand our point of view. Your foundation is obedience. Our foundation is Jesus Christ. This is the classic dichotomy between the law and grace.
Alexander, If you go back to the very beginning of this discussion you’ll find these statements…first by Yeakley:
“It is only if and when we turn away from Christ that we fall from grace. Christians, therefore, can know that we are saved. If we had to be perfect in our obedience to remain in a saved condition, then there would be no hope for any of us.”
Then by Jay:
“Amen. But he declares that this is “what most Churches of Christ believe.”
Well, he’s the statistician, but my observation is that most Churches of Christ teach that we cannot know we are saved — because they impose a long list of tests of fellowship/salvation and refuse to make an end to the list. Seemingly, every year, the conservative periodicals produce a new issue that damns.
So long as the Churches declare that instrumental music damns but women not wearing a head covering does not, and can’t explain why one damns and the other does not, intelligent members will realize that, under this theory, it’s impossible to know whether you’re saved because it’s impossible to know what errors damn and what errors don’t!”
Now you come along and accuse Charles of “You make up a huge straw man, a Halloween-Ghost, you cry out and warn angainst at the top of your lungs, but – hey! – that’s not what we are talking about!” Well, what Charles was saying is exactly what we’ve been talking about. I’m not sure what you are talking about but the rest of us have been talking about Jay’s observation above about the Church of Christ’s teaching that places its’ members in a position where they cannot know that they are saved. So far, You, Laymond and Hank seem to be claiming that Yeakley is correct while Royce, Charles, Skip, AJ, Price, Nancy, Todd and myself (I might have missed a few)have made posts that seem to basically agree with Jay’s statement above. If this isn’t what you are talking about then you are off-topic and you need to tell us what you are talking about. 🙂
Romans 5:18-20 makes it clear how a sinner becomes righteous, “so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” Paul quoted Isaiah 53.
The obedience that sets sinners right with God is the obedience of Jesus. Until you grasp that truth and accept it you will not understand the grace of God. Anything short of God giving forgiveness of sins (all of them) and eternal life as a “free gift” is less than the Bible account of the worth and work of Jesus for sinners.
Take it to the bank, man centered salvation always disappoints, it does not engender love and good works, but rather fear, doubt, and self righteousness. Christ centered salvation is the opposite. Love and good works are the natural outpouring of God at work in us and through us, fear is cast out, and the righteousness of Christ is quite enough.
Alexander opined, “All this talk about “how much is enough” comes not from the heart of a disciple, but from misled Christians…
>>>
As opposed to the Christian who believes he actually CAN obey the Law, that the Law was made to keep, and who continues to judge the hearts of others without offering a single qualification for doing so. You are welcome to keep working your way toward a prospective eventual possible salvation, Alexander. Better you than me, mon frere. Once I realized I really was a son, and realized what I had, I vowed never to go back to seeing myself as a hired hand, working and waiting and hoping to qualify for something that had been given to me long years before.
I think I shall pass on playing the next round of Whack-A-Mole with you.
I do wish, however, that you would pull up a little short of your repeated assertions which boldly “discern the hearts” of other people. That’s just wrong. You’re clearly pulling on a pair of boots far too large for you, and the real Owner may take umbrage with your chutzpah.
Royce, say you are right, I have misunderstood what Jesus wants, that I don’t have to do good works, help the poor care for my fellow man, pray to God , try my best to do what I see as what Jesus said obey as closly as humanly possiable.
Do you think when I come up before the judge, he is going to say sorry, you just worked to hard, you loved me and your fellow man to much. you tryed to obey God just to closely. You thought a covenant was between two persons.
sorry “goodie-two-shoes” it’s the broiler for you. I will take that chance.
But if you are wrong, and you were supposed to do what Jesus said was necessary, and you have laid all the burden at Jesus feet, what excuse do you have? I won’t take that chance.
Whack-a-mole… Good one. I was calling it a tar-baby discusion but I like Whack-a-mole much better. The acronym would be WaM.
Alexander….you’re not being fair.. You make the argument that works are essential to salvation. Then you avoid quantifying the necessary works. It’s like a baseball player not wanting to strike out but having no idea of how many strikes he gets. I keep asking the questions to figure out what your rules are and you think it’s absurd. How can finding out how to be saved or lost be absurd? If you don’t know what the rules of salvation really are no wonder you live in fear. I find a plan of salvation based on an arbitrary set of standards to be absurd and indefensible.
It seems now you wish to argue for salvation based on having the proper attitude. So, now one feels free to ask…how much of a proper attitude qualifies one for heaven and how little qualifies one for hell? Surely you know if you are trying to teach salvation by attitude, right ? Surely God didn’t come up with a new plan of salvation by throwing away the O.T. rule book and leave us to try and guess correctly…Surely.
I agree with those that think the answer is obvious and clearly defined… Jesus. Putting my Faith and trust in Jesus allows me to receive the unmerited favor of God necessary for my salvation. For me, that’s really Good News.
What I don’t think the rules group understands is that God doesn’t need your obedience. You can’t improve God. YOU need your obedience. We ALL need the benefit of following the example of Jesus..It makes ME better. It makes the world better. It’s good for ME. The more I follow after Christ the more abundant life I have.
It doesn’t earn me anything. It helps me but salvation isn’t a debt owed by God to me for being 82.9% obedient.
For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Rom 5:17-18 I just don’t see how you can misinterpret this clear statement of fact !!
Laymond and others,
I wish you would quit pretending that I and others who disagree with you do not do the good works you listed and more. It’s really a silly position. Of course I and others here do those things. The difference is we are trusting Jesus Christ for salvation and not our works.
I know, Royce. You just have to understand that it sends a weird message when you write things like – sinners are saved before and without “one bit of obedience”. It makes it seem as though salvation is not dependant upon the obedience of man?
Correct me if I have misunderstood you, but did you or did you not write that sinners were saved before and without “one bit of obedience”?
I you have changed your position and beloved that a certain amount of obedience is actually required, could you explain how much is necessary?
Do you claim to know who it is (and at which point) Hod considers one to be “lukewarm ” and/or no longer ” walking in the light”?
Price, does this give you an inkling as to what, and how much is required?
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Everything you have belongs to God.
Laymond… An inkling ?? Surely Laymond if my eternal destiny is riding on it I need more than a hint. How much of my money buys me a house in heaven? What percentage of my income is neccessary to obtain eternal life ? Surely you know since you use it as a measure to judge others. Surely you have a Benchmark. Please share your unique acctuarial equation for eternal bliss with the rest of us so that we can be enlightened.
You know, I’m whack-a-moled out on this thread. Besides, apparently I can’t ask Hank a question properly enough for him to answer it so there’s no sense coming back to check for his answer. He sure gets bent out of shape when anyone else doesn’t answer him though… he’s a great question asker but not so good on answering them. By the way, this “faith only guy” is going to a local drug rehabilitation center tommorrow morning to talk to the guys about Jesus. He was also in Jail Sunday morning and usually every Wednesday night doing the same. Like Royce said, we “faith only guys” do work, we just trust in Jesus for our salvation.
Price
The reason I avoided the list is that the list approach is equally wrong as the ignoring of the list.
OK: There are numerous commands in the NT, and WE can make a list out of them. in fact: That’s what I am goint to present and to discuss in our brothers meeting this morning (we’re having breakfast, too). I’m going to ask, whether we are content when Christians after a few years are able to sit straight in the pews and can handle a hymn-book or whether there is more to the story of a Christian life.
What I suggest is the following: Let’s make a list of habits, works, attitudes (or commands) and give the sisters and brothers a chance to evaluate themselves:
E.g.
a) Fasting is dear to me and I practice it
b) I don’t know what fasting is all about
c) I’d appreciate some help to get me started on fasting
The list is not a check-list in the sense: If we haven#t starightened out everythingm, we’ll be damned. Why? Because we are pupils, sztuidents, disciples – we are on our way, LEARNING to obey all He has commanded.
So none of us has got 100% yet. Some are closer, some have a longer way to go. And I think none of us will ever reach 100% – That’s why we STRIVE for holiness. There won’t be a day in this flesh when we can say: NOW I have completed my pursuit of holiness.
That’s why I don’t go by lists. It can and does turn into a pharisaic approach to salvation which is AS WRONG as the lawless “Faith only” theology.
I hope, this helps. Discussions tend to force us into statements that are way out of balance.
Alexander
Oh, you poor mistreated Protestant soul, Charles. They lied to you all the way! They turn your head to the flesh and constantly hammer into your brain: “You are weak, you cannot do God’s will, your flesh is of no use, see you are totally depraved and wholly dependent on doing nothing but trusting in Christ as your savior …”
They lie while saying the truth. Each word is correct in what they say, yet what they leave out is what keeps you and most Protestants in the bondage of their flesh: The power of the Spirit! Read this:
See, THAT’s Christian Freedom! Not the freedom from any requirements, but the freedom from our sinful nature in order to be able to meet God’s requirements through His Spirit. That’s Gospel!
And – just to be a little more provocative – even unregenerated people (pre-pentecost Jews) could have the testimony of having kept the Law blemelessly:
This report and testimony alone shatters all Protestant tracts on our total depravity into thousand and more pieces! Yet those who are lied to, believe this is the truth they heard, and blame us – who believe in God’s Power to save us in the sense that He also empowers us to meet His requirements – of legalism and heresy.
I do admit that not all understand this and fall into opposite extremes as if we by our own strength had to save us – but that’s not what God said, is it? Meditate on Romans 8, come out of the Romans 7-prison into the freedom of children of God! A freedom from the flesh, not from the Law!
Alexander
Doug,
I am not sure which question it is you accuse me of avoiding. I already requested that you simply ask it again, clearly, and that I promise to address it. But, instead of asking whatever question it is you have… you prefer to not ask it, but accuse me of avoiding it.
I have been accused of a lot of things here but NEVER have I been accused of avoiding questions. I know it makes it seem as though you had something really tough for me to deal with in accusing me of dodging whatever it is you wanted to know. But, such is surely not the case. Just do the right thing and ask your question(s) clearly. I will answer them.
But enough with accusing me of not being willing and/or able to answer them. That ain’t right, bro.
Okay… I’ll whack-the-mole one more time.
Hank, See my posts of 4/29/2012 @8:47pm and 11:12pm for the latest questions I asked you which to date are unanswered. I really don’t think I can make the questions any clearer. Incidently, in the 11:12pm posting I answered four of your questions while asking you one. Also, I did not accuse you of avoiding anything, I just said that you seem to like to ask questions while not answering questions directed at you. You seem completely capabile of answering questions if you wish to do so.
Alexander, if meeting with your christian brothers counts as a work, you can add that one to my list too. We meet on Tuesdays not Saturdays so I hope that’s okay. I too have referenced Romans 8 (how could you not in this particular thread?). I see fasting as a Spiritual Exercise intended to strengthen the Holy Spirit in us. It is just one of many Spiritual Exercises that a Christian can use for that purpose, nothing particularily amazing about it except it is mentioned in the bible as a early practice of some. The whole point about Spiritual Exercises is they are intended to strenghen the Holy Spirits within us with the desired result being that we ultimately become the image of Jesus. If we could complete that goal and truly become like Jesus, then the need for this whole discussion would just vanish. We would do the works of Jesus, we would say only the things that Jesus said, we would think only the thoughts that Jesus thought. That would surely take away all fear of failing to “do enough” to acheive salvation. Unfortunately, you can’t read Romans 8 without first reading Romans 7 and in Romans 7:15-20, Paul literally agonizes over his abilty to become this Spiritual image of Jesus. I align myself with Paul on this. That doesn’t mean that I quit trying to become an image of Jesus and by exercsing the Spirit’s control over my spirit, I can make progress and run my race to completion. I’ll die trying in other words. But, the knowledge that there’s still going to be that part of me that the flesh controls is the ultimate point of this thread. Unless I erase completely all of the fleshly part of me, the only recourse for me is to depend on the grace of Jesus. What I can’t do, Jesus already has done. The magic, if you want to call if that, is found in Romans 8:11. I praise God that here I read that if the “Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you”. Now that is Good News! It is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us that gives us life. It is not the totality of our works, our confessions, our repentances, our prayers. All of these are Spirtual helps in strengthening the Spirit that dwells in us and much to our benefit but it is the indwelling Spirit that gives us life. I can see how the Church of Christ generated a merit salvation creed by teaching that the Holy Spirit was the Holy Bible and teaching that the Spirit does not indwell in a Christian. That teaching is wrong, wrong, wrong and ultimately it has resulted in people who are fearful of their salvation because they have unrepented sin or because they haven’t done enough to satisfy God. It breaks my heart to hear someone who has been a Christian for many years say “I just don’t know if I have done enough to earn heaven”. Of course, they haven’t done enough but Romans 8:11 should be taught every Sunday so that they can be assured of God’s desire to save them.
Alexander, it may not appear this way but although I disagree I’m trying hard not to be disagreeable… Here’s the conundrum… If a WORKS based salvation can’t come up with the exact list, then you have a terribly flawed system. It HAS to be detailed… If one operates from a GRACE based salvation, the one and only list item is Jesus…
Now, I was surprised that you went back into this Faith “only” description… Some might be confused by your description so allow me a brief explanation. Grace by Faith is indeed how we are saved according to Scripture… That does not allow for nor imply that those that agree with God’s design are encouraged to act any way they wish. As Paul said, “may it never be.” However, the fact that sin exists in all of us, no matter how bad we wish it didn’t, doesn’t condemn us because we are saved by grace through faith…not whether or not we were X percent obedient.. Anyone that tries to associate salvation by Grace through Faith with lawlessness needs to question their motives for making such an argument and go back and read Romans….or whatever else one needs to read to understand the impact of Grace.
All of this back and forth boils down to who is the better Christian, a sad state of affairs in my view. The fact is that before God not one of us has any merit that will cause God to see us favorably. The reason is this. All of us, given our very best, fall woefully short of God’s standard for righteousness, thus our need of the life and work on Christ for us. If even one of us can be good enough to be accepted by God Jesus death was not necessary.
Where is Jesus in all of this anyway? Shouldn’t He be the center of attention instead of us?
One final thing… The last several comments has raised the level of discussion to about the 6th grade. Sad but true.
Price, I guess my pointing out to you as to how others gave of themselves, and what Jesus said about it , was lost somewhere in transmission. Please reread my comment.
There is no set amount of money you need to give, there is no set amount of time we need to devote to the care of the sick, there is no set amount of time we should spend in prayer. Give all you can afford. From those who have more, more is expected. There is a set amount of love to give your neighbor, you set that yourself. Do for others as you would have then do for you.
It is really not that complicated Price, give all you don’t need, and then some, your neighbor might need it too, it is not yours anyway, you are just trusted with seeing over the master’s money, so do the best you can with it.
“Where is Jesus in all of this anyway? Shouldn’t He be the center of attention instead of us?”
Royce, believe it or not, it is all about us. even Jesus was about us.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
Doug, you asked:
“Would you please tell me what is “enough”?”
— “enough” is where GOD considers one “faithful”, “walking in the light”, not “lukewarm”, etc. I believe that “enough” may be/look different from one believer to another, for God expects/requires different things from different people. As soon as you can explain precisely who (and at which point) God considers one “lukewarm”, you will know what is “enough”. I confess, that I do not now exactly when God considers one to enter into the state of “lukewarmness”. You can mock that, but you don’t really know either.
You next asked: “I don’t deny that Christians need to be doing the things you listed from Matthew:25 but does the individual Christian need to doing all of them, some of them or just one individual work?”
I don’t claim to know this answer, either. Perhaps, it varies from one person to another? But, only God knows when such deeds meets his requirements. You admit that Christians “need to be doing” the deeds listed in Mat. 25 as well. You can’t answer your own question any clearer than I can. The difference is, where I say I don’t know…. you act as if you do. But, and again, you don’t know precisely what God expects from any given individual in terms of blessing others. If you did, you would lay it all out. Wouldn’t you?
Were there any other questions you had for me?
Alex said “I do admit that not all understand this and fall into opposite extremes as if we by our own strength had to save us – but that’s not what God said, is it?”
And I agree, It is not an individual effort that saves. God sent Jesus, Jesus taught us what was required, but our salvation is really up to us. We can accept, and live by what Jesus taught,and save ourselves or we can reject his teachings and die. As Peter said, Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
And I say now, save yourselves, by accepting Jesus Christ, in baptism and his teachings recorded in the bible. And living a Christian life. You cannot go on (deliberately) sinning against God and expect a “good reward” just not in the book.
You know what, I kinda think this thread might be like what church was like during Paul’s day,everybody got their turn to speak, and I have no doubt there were differences, and even disagreements, but it seemed to turn out alright, I am sure this will too. 🙂
From a different angle: Substitute faith by faithfulness or loyalty. That’s the meaning of the Greek word, and not just a “mental assent” or a “work-free acceptance of a gift”.
If you’d say: “We are saved by faithfulness to Christ”, we’d wholeheartedly agree; but since you cling to a limited understanding of faith, we have a hard time understanding each other.
Alexander
Alexander wrote:
“If you’d say: “We are saved by faithfulness to Christ”, we’d wholeheartedly agree; but since you cling to a limited understanding of faith, we have a hard time understanding each other.”
Indeed! When people interpret “faith” to mean trusting Jesus to save “without one bit of obedience” (as some have written), there is definitely a misunderstanding of what “faith” means.
But, the book of God declares that Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all them that obey him. Which obviously means we must obey him in order to be saved. Which makes co many wonder “If salvation is conditioned upon OUR obedience, then doesn’t that mean the “worth and work of Jesus was not enough”? If we MUST obey, then Jesus must not be enough?!?
Royce, are you saying we RAISED the discussion to 6th grade level, meaning it was previously below 6th grade level or we LOWERED it to 6th grade level? I can’t decide if I should feel good or insulted. 🙂 Maybe you could give us an example of High School level?
Hank, I didn’t ever claim to know the answers to those “enough” questions either. But you said on 4/29/2012 @ 7:02pm “So actually, yeah, I do believe that certain people will go to hell for not doing enough “good works” (assuming giving food, clothes and company to the needy are “good works”)”. So how do we reconcile this to Romans 8:11 where Paul tells us that it is the Spirit living in us that will raise us from the dead just like Jesus was raised from the dead? I believe that if we have the Holy Spirit alive in us we will naturally be doing the works of Mathew 25:31-46 and we will also be raised from the dead just as Jesus was raised from the dead. There is no discontinuity between Romans 8:11 and Mathew 25:31-46 and therefore we need not fear either death or judgement. From what you have written, my take is that you fear death and judgement. Maybe my take is wrong but that is what I have gotten from your written words. Am I wrong?
Doug,
Romans 8:11 (or any other verse) that promises us salvation is conditioned upon our “remaining faithful” (yeah, I said it), our continued “walking in the light”, and our not being “lukewarm”.
Like I said before, just because John declares that it was written that we “may know we are saved” — it does not mean that whoever reads that should know that about themselves. It is conditioned upon our remaining faithful.
Do you deny that in order to be saved, one must be (and remain) faithful? Either way, are you able to explain precisely who (and at which point) God considers one to no longer be “faithful”?
If so, please share here. And if so, we are in the same boat bro – neither one of us knowing precisely who (and at which point) God considers one to be no longer walking in the light”.
Do you deny that the Bible teaches that a certain number of Christians in the church will be lost? If not, can you explain precisely who (and at which point) such Christians become lost?
If not, we are in the same boat…
Doug, …down to 6th grade.
I’d be curious to learn from you guys (Hank, Alexander, especially..) why did Jesus die? What does it mean that he died “for us”? And, what if anything did his sacrificial death accomplish for the average sinner like me?
Based on what I’ve read the answer would be that he didn’t accomplish much at all. If God is saving you based on how good you can be why would you need someone to pay for your sins? I think Laymond’s view is that Jesus died to give us the opportunity to be baptized and be saved by doing good. Why couldn’t a fellow just do good, be baptized, if Jesus had not died or even if he had not existed?
People are grappling with the question why are folks leaving the coc? Maybe the nonsensical doctrine being taught by some people might contribute to that. What hope is there in running a race not knowing where the finish line is? Men loudly declare we must obey an illusive set of rules but refuse to say what they are. Well, the cross means something. Paul counted all his blameless law keeping and religious heritage as rubbish that he may know Christ. Is your personal righteousness better than Paul’s? Does your ability to follow the rules and do good exceed that of the scribes and Sadducees?
Another gospel is no gospel, it is a wicked lie.
Hank, during the course of this while thread, no one to my rememberance has promoted a “once in grace, always in grace” position. But, a Christian who is allowing the Holy Spirit to work with their spirit will be changing toward the image of Christ. Such a person should have no fear of judgement because they will have works to prove they aren’t lukewarm, they will be faithful and they will be be walking in the light. They will walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Some Christians aren’t even aware (or have not been taught) that they were born with a spirit or that the Holy Spirit dwells in them. They make no provisions or efforts to let the Holy Spirit do His work. A Christian can quench the Holy Spirit and therefore not change at all, i.e. remain in the flesh. I’m not saying that people who have done this shouldn’t fear judgement.
Alexander. It doesn’t seem to me that moving from salvation by works to salvation by attitude to now salvation based on faithfulness is different. You’re still saying the same thing as Laymond….that YOU can save yourself. What degree of faithfulness saves and how little condemns? No idea? I would agree that a person who has a sincere faith will want to be pleasing to Him. I agree it is more that an academic conclusion. I will never try to substitute any of my imperfect behavior for the at toning sacrifice of Christ. That would be sacrilege and IMHO a different gospel. We are saved by grace through faith….not by works… At all. Not some works. No works. Filthy rags. Unless you believe one has the ability to have perfect faithfulness. By the way, who or what saves you when your faithfulness and works aren’t perfect ??
This is one of the most misunderstood scripture the Faith/grace people use to support their misguided theology.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
This does not mean that all you have to do is believe Jesus is Christ. It means you have to believe in Jesus enough to do what he said.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
What was it Paul said he preached after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus .
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
“do works meet for repentance”
Laymond, I hope you are reading Jay’s series on Bonhoffer because the doctrine you are pushing just isn’t the true Gospel.
Doug, are you reading my reference ? they come straight from the bible, if you don’t believe the bible just say so.
Lsymond there is nothing wrong with what the bible says, it’s what you are saying.
Guys,
You’re talking past each other, as I’m sure you all realize. The solution is for the two sides to take the verses the other side argues from and show how they fit into the contrary understanding. That is, unless we just get to pick the verses we like best, then true understanding must be built on all the verses — without contradiction.
How do we reconcile the countless verses that promise salvation by faith with those verses that demand obedience?
I’m hearing two very similar theories, and I’m not entirely sure where they disagree.
One side argues that salvation is by faith from first to last (as Paul certainly said) but that true faith includes faithfulness and faithfulness includes a heart that obeys. A heart that obeys will not necessarily get all the rules right and will at times sin, but judged on the whole, will obey because it is faithful/penitent — it wants to obey.
The other sides urges the necessity of obedience and says that obedience does not have to be perfect but we can never relent from being very, very serious about being obedient. Thus, faith covers our weakness and errors, but we cannot rely on faith as an excuse to be lazy, lukewarm, or engage in license.
I think those are the very same positions views but from different perspectives. And so I wonder what the disagreement is — other than an insistence on saying the same thing in a preferred way out of fear of giving credence to a particular error.
The first side is afraid that insistence on obedience will lead to legalism — that is, an insistence that certain levels or forms of obedience are required as a condition to grace.
The second side is afraid that insistence on salvation by faith will lead to license — that is, a refusal to obey in reliance on grace.
The fear of legalism is well justified, as many in the Churches of Christ use the necessity of obedience as a means of damning those who use the wrong number of cups or conduct the wrong number of classes or whatever — turning “obedience” from a state of the heart to an objective list of requirements for salvation that must be met regardless of one’s faith/faithfulness/penitence.
Thus, there is a legitimate fear that an undue emphasis on obedience will justify imposing all sorts of inferences on each other as conditions of salvation, whereas obedience is about the state of our hearts and not whether we’ve mastered the Law of Generic and Specific Authority. And an obedient heart will necessarily obey — but only as well as it understands God’s law, and if that is a heart that believes in Jesus, that will be quite good enough.
The fear of license is less well justified. The Baptists, for example, teach the impossibility of falling away, and yet their members are generous givers, regular attenders, and as committed to Jesus as ours are. In fact, they far exceed us in terms of personal evangelism.
But it does happen. There are those who use grace as an excuse for license. And the scriptures warn repeatedly against it because it’s a real problem. Therefore, if we don’t face that problem, we likely aren’t teaching grace with enough vigor!
Hence, just as Paul and the author of Hebrews did, it’s entirely proper to warn that a faith-based salvation does not excuse a lukewarm heart that does not even try to obey. Rebellion damns.
So what am I missing?
Jay, You aren’t missing anything. I think you captured the argument well. We on the side of grace have repeatedly said that we believe that we must obey but our obedience doesn’t merit salvation. Our message has somehow been missed. Those on the side of obedience perhaps have communicated that they believe we are saved by the grace of God but the obedience drumbeat has been louder than their grace drumbeat. I gave up writing because my points were misunderstood or twisted. Having spent 32 years in the CoC where the primary emphasis was on obedience, behavior, or guilt and the last 6 years understanding how a grace based Christian lives… I can’t go back to the old legalistic Church of Christ perspective. I feel more free now than ever before and as a consequence I love God and others more.
Thank you for moderating.
Jay, you’re the one studying psychology 🙂
Jay, grace accepted by faith will always be accompanied by faithfulness. The acts of faith may even prove at times to publically demonstrate ones faith. But faithfulness cannot earn salvation if salvation I by grace. Grace isn’t merited or it isn’t grace. Furthermore we on the grace side never argue for license to do as we please nor do we demonstrate that behavior. That argument is a straw man argument brought into existence by the works crowd in order to have something to argue against. if we are saved by our acts of faith then it is no longer grace. It is not Jesus who saves but we who act faithfully. That’s not truth. That’s not the gospel.
Jay, I’m not sure that the two sides are simply talking past each other or that the two sides represent the very same positions but from different perspectives. I believe that I have lived both sides of this discussion at different times in my life. First, I was on the obedience side and now I am on the faith side. My experience is that they lead to two very different expressions of Christian life. While on the obedience side I worked very hard at the task of being a Christian but for the most part it wound up being for the wrong reasons and I got minimal joy from my obedience. In fact, I wound up in a burned out state and came very close to chucking the whole Christian scene. But once I found myself truly accepting the grace that God offered to me and accepting that grace totally, I was led to even greater expressions of obedience and this time the joy overflowed. Now you can say that the two sides being discussed are really one in the same if you really think that but I say that they lead to two very different kinds of Christian living, one that leaves you unsatisfied and one the satisfies completely and leaves you wanting to do more and more in the name of Jesus. How can they be the same if the life result is totally different?
And here’s the disagreement! If we are going to be judged according to our works – and there is not one single description of judgment, that is an exception to this rule! – then works play an essential part in our salvation.
Alexander
Sorry, I was interrupted; let me continue:
Let’s say: We are saved by faith – that’s something required of us, a proper response to the gospel. Can we say that faith “earns” our salvation? In a sense yes, in another sense no. we can be very picky here and say: NO, ONLY Christ earned our salvation through the shedding of His Blood. This is true, of course. Yet, unless we respond in faith Christ profits us nothing. So in this sense: Faith makes salvation real for us; thus “earning” our salvation.
Can you all follow this? Now it’s only one more step to get the message:
Faith is faithfulness to Christ and cannot stand without works, in fact, faith without works is a dead faith. So what is it then that makes faith saving faith? Our works. So, no it is not heresy when we say: “We are justified by works” but scripture (Jas 2:24). So can we say works are meritorious for our salvation? Yes, indeed, for if there are no works, our faith profits us nothing. And therefore the dichotomy faith-works is utterly wrong, misleading and devastating to sound faith and doctrine.
This “Faith alone”-theology was coined in the time of heated debates between Reformers and Catholics in the 1500s. It was not wise to press biblical faith into such concise formulas (the four soli) to begin with, because our faith is a little more complex than that – yet today, in a time when faith is being sold so cheaply (“Raise your hands and be saved!”) such formulas became a burden and stumbling block for all churches whose roots are in the Reformation.
Let me say it loud and boldly in the words of James again:
And let’s compare this to the following quote:
Now which Gospel message are we to preach and to trust, brothers?
Alexander
Amen Alex. We have an example of it happening before.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
I had rather have the record of doing ” works” , and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Thy myth opf the filthy rags:
The message here is NOT that we cannot do anything good – on the contrary! But the state of Osrael at the time Isaiah laments and prays for his people was the result of a process of turning away from God into sin. Read verse 5 prior to verse 6 and you’sll immediately see that God rejoices in those who work righteousness. The lesson – again – is not that we are unable to do this, but that we can get so stuck in sin that thetre is nothing left that is praiseworthy in us. Yet, htat’s NOT A GENERAL STATEMENT, brothers! It’s a prayer of penitence!
Don’t misuse this scripture to excuse us from doing what is right (because, see, scripture says we can’t do anything good – WRONG!).
Alexander
Laymond and Alexander, Most of us arguing the grace side have never said that works aren’t important or that Christians should not be doing good works. You both have overreacted and assumed that by living by grace that we believe you don’t have to do good deeds. But I have said this before and it hasn’t sunk in so I doubt it will this time either. We will be judged for our deeds on judgement but God judges to assess our rewards he doesn’t judge to merely decide heaven or hell. In Matthew 25 in the parable of the talents, the Lord judges the works of the 3 men and gives rewards in heaven for 2 of the men and gives damnation to the man who did NOTHING. Many will be saved on the last day but not all will be equally rewarded. You are mixing up the difference between salvation and reward. Many other scriptures support this position.
Alexander, it seems we have a bit of a dilemma here becasue 1st Corintians 3:12-15 tells us “”Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work, which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire”. I’m sure you might have a different interpetation of these verses but to me this says… Our works will be tested and those works that we did which measure up will result in reward. Those works that don’t measure up, even if performed in the name of Jesus, will be tossed into fire and consumed, i.e. no reward. But, the worker can be saved even if his works are non-rewardable as a result of his faith in Jesus as the son of God. I have to admit, this is a bit confusing but this is what the bible states and it leads me to believe that judgement is in 2 parts. One is for salvation from eternal damnation and based on faith. The other is for reward and is based on a believers works. I don’t know what the official CofC position is on this and it may be different from the Indpendent Christian Church. I know that the CofC seems to have post-millenial beliefs while the Independent Christian Church has pre-millenial beliefs so CofC beliefs on jugement may be in a single judgement and not a two part (salvation, reward) judgement.
Skip, what do you say about the comparison between Jas 2:24 and an actual quote of one who argues for “grace”. Are they contradicting each other or not? Am I misquoting or misrepresenting? At least not on purpose. If I do, could you explain the obvious discrepancy? Further: Is James speaking about justification/salvation or about a reward?
Alexander
Well, Doug, what kind of works are we talking about in 1Co 3:15? If you start reading from 1Co 3:5 all the way to 1Co 3:15 it is clear that Paul speaks about the works of the apostles and those who continue their work: This means presenting the Gospel message, building churches. These precious stones, gold or silver or wood and straw are people.
So, when do Paul, Apollos, Kephas or teachers that followed them in building Christ’s church receive a reward for their work? When their work remains and stands the test. Think again: Who is it that is called gold or wood? The people, that are built up as a temple on the foundation of Christ (see also Eph 2:20). What could it mean that some will burn and some won’t? That some Christians or even congregations prove to be wooden instead of golden. How can this be? This passage does not say – only that some will be burned and others remain. When? On judgement day. Like in the parable of the dragnet when the fish are going to be sorted out.
That’s why Paul urged the Philippians to obedience. Why? Because they are his reward, and if they fail, he will lose that reward have worked in vain (see Phil 2:12-16)!
Ever looked at this text this way?
This was never meant to be a proof text for a kind of salvation where it does not matter whether you lead a carnal life (I heard that explanaition in Evangelical circles A LOT!) as long as you believe in Christ. Those who live disobedient lives will burn, and your dear minister, preacher, elders will have worked in vain. But they will be saved, because they worked for the Kingdom.
Alexander
Alexander,
That is an often misunderstood passage. The way you just explained it is the most logical. It’s odd how so many understand the “work” which gets tried are our deeds — which makes no sense at all.
Obviously, the “work” to be tested with fire are our converts, not our deeds. In chapter 9:1, Paul told the Corinthians that THEY were his “work.”
There are many passages where Paul talked about being worried/concerned about his converts (his “work”) not enduring/remaining faithful and him losing his reward as a result.
Doug, your confusion regarding the “work” to be tested has caused you to now believe that everyone will be judged twice. Once for salvation and once for rewards.
However, the Bible doesn’t ever teach that.
Skip, said “Many will be saved on the last day but not all will be equally rewarded.”
Skip can you point me to where that is said, or did you not read the parable about the workers who were rewarded the same penny for doing less work.
I have heard this before, I believe it was Royce who told me this, but it seems he could not back it up with scripture, where did you see this I am truly interested to know. There is no reason for your obedience other than reward, the reward of salvation. Or of course, just being a good person. You say you trust Jesus, trust him to do what? To keep his promise to do as he said, if we do as he asked. Believe it or not, the covenant is null & void if we do not honor our part.
Alexander, I think works that endure are always based upon expressing God’s love for and to people. Works based upon anything else will be not be rewarded. Still, since in context the book of James was written to believers, I don’t think James was urging the believers to do works in order to develop faith but rather to convince them that true faith always produces true works done for love’s sake. It a person doesn’t produce works out of love for others, they might need to revisit their faith conviction. If a person really accepts that Jesus died for him because He loves him, his faith ought to compel him to love others and do the works of his master. If a person is not doing that, maybe their faith isn’t what they think it to be even if they consider themselves to be a mature christians. They need to go back to square one.
Hank, you may be right and I might be confused but I have a lot of company as the verses in the question have been interpeted as to lead to 2 judgements by many, many bible scholars. Makes one wish that Paul could have laid off the metaphors a bit more and just stated clearly what he meant. I am not suprised that the CofC has it all figured out though.
This may sound picky, but James never speaks of true or false faith, but living and dead faith. The thing is, that we might start out right, but die along the way, just as the seed that grew among the thorns and thistles died. There was true life that grew from the seed, yet it did not make it to maturity and did not produce fruit. It was not a false plant or a false seed. It was true and genuine life that came out of the soil. But it died.
James also does not say we do works simply for love’s sake (that’s what we’d like him to have said), but for justification (Jas 2:24). That’s what he says. It does not fit Protestant theology at all, and Luther was well aware of it, so he would have taken this ook 8and hebrews as well) out of the canon if that had been possible. So, he just changed the order of the books and placed these two epistels towards the end oft he NT (the order of books in Luther’s translation is different thatn the one in the KJV and all other Bibles, reflecting Luther’s problems with some epistles).
Think about this one from James:
Whose mercy triumphs over judgment? God’s? NO – OUR mercy! When we are merciful, we will be judged with mercy. if we show no nmercy, there will be no mercy for us on judgement day. This sound a lot like Jesus, doesn’t it? James is very clear about it, when we continue reading:
So, when we are merciful, our faith will have works of mercy. therefore, when we forgive those who trespass against us, we will be forgiven also. if not, then God will not forgive us. That’s very simple language – a child can understand that!
But we “Theologians” protest and ask: “Are saying, that our mercy is meritorious?” That we are justfied by works and not by faith alone?”
And that’s exactly what James affirms: We are justified by works and not by faith alone. So works DO play an ESSENTIAL role in our salvation.
So, lets have living faith! Don’t let the seed God planted in us die without having produced the fruit, God expected when he sowed it!
Alexander
I came to that conclusion before I joined the churches of Christ; and I later was surprized to find the same conclusion in an old Hutterite sermon from the 1700s.
Yes, there are MANY scholars who agree with you on this text. the very same scholars who affirm repeatedly that 150 verses say that we are saed by faith (alone). But each time when you look a few verses before or after one of these verses, you’ll find baptism, works, conditions of all sorts.
The misconception arose from isolating verse 15 from its context, and of course, when you look at this verse alone, you and these scholares are correct! That’s the most plausible understanding of this verse when you leave out its context. I’m not sure anymore how I felt when I for the first time reread the verse with its context, after having repeated for years what these scholars told me it would mean. I think I got quite angry – surprized, but angry like a person who had been lied to, who was misled and – even worse – was misleading others! I realized that I was a false teacher teaching a false security! This is hard to swallow, Doug. I had to chew on this for months.
That’s why I am upset when dear brothers and sisters leave sound doctrine for Evangelical theology. Yes, blame it on our preachers who probably do a poor job, presenting it correctly – but not all do a poor job.
Alexander
Alexander, do you consider your writing on this blogsite to be a “work”?
Alexander, Please contrast your James 2:24 with
Romans 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
I believe that James 2:24 is true and Romans 4:4,5 are true and they seemingly contradict each other. For every verse that you are convinced makes your case, I can find a counter verse that says the contrary. I believe both verses are true but from different perspectives.
Laymond, I already showed you one of many verses that support ““Many will be saved on the last day but not all will be equally rewarded.”. Please read my prior comments and scripture quote. I will let you do the research to find the many more scriptures that support this thesis. I am not making up stuff out of a vacuum.
Skip, do you really see this parable saying, “Many will be saved on the last day but not all will be equally rewarded.”.
This is what he said to the two servants who “worked” and doubled his money, “Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master” He said the exact same thing to both who “worked” and doubled his money.
This is what he said to the servant who did not “work” to increase his money. “You wicked and slothful servant— And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Skip, do you really see this as saying (saved, but unequally rewarded) I don’t. I believe the servant who did no “work” for the master, was surely unequally rewarded, but saved, might be a jump to far, for me to accept.
Do you know what “slothful” means lazy, did not work. Yep seems even this example requires work to be rewarded.
Alexander, your comments about James come close to shear heresy. We can no more declare ourselves righteous before God than we can earn our salvation. You need to carefully rethink what you are saying…
James uses the word justify in the same manner as it was used in Luke 16:15 when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and accused them of “justifying” themselves. Jesus said that God knew their hearts. The word in this case means to outwardly demonstrate or show to be righteous… It does not mean that one is capable of legally declaring themselves righteous or the Pharisees would have been righteous. Jesus said they were not. The word is similarly used this was in Luke 10:28-29 when Luke says that the Lawyer who put Jesus to the test was trying to “justify” himself… Do you actually believe that this lawyer was declaring himself righteous before God and God had to accept it? Please. Other examples of the word being used like this are in Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:35 and Romans 3:4…
One can also see that when James uses the word when describing Abraham being “justified by his works” James 2:21 he was using it to say that Abraham was SHOWING himself to be righteous..God had already declared Abram righteous well before Isaac was born !!!!
Romans 3:24 speaks clearly to how we are declared righteous…” Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” Grace is free, it is unmerited. Some of you keep trying to make it merited or earned. If it is earned it is not Grace.
Paul tells the Galatians exactly what he thinks (I suppose it’s really the Holy Spirit telling you and me) about people trying to turn Grace into a law keeping merit badge…
Gal 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
This whole idea of being saved and declared legally righteous by one’s own merit is sickening to me. It’s not the Truth and I can’t believe anyone would read the Bible and come up with a theology that says Christ is insufficient.. I’m done trying to convince you that you’re not good enough… Go ahead, be good enough.
Laymond, For the 3rd man who hid his talent… who got his talent? Did the Lord split it in half and divide it amongst the other 2 men? Reread the scripture. The man with the 10 talents received the extra talent. The man with fewer talents got no more. This is an unequal reward. In Matthew 6:27 we are rewarded according to what we have done. It doesn’t say “saved according to what we have done”. We are saved according to what Jesus has done. Look also at I Corinthians 3:8 and 14 for a demonstration of unequal rewards. In Matthew 10:41 there are different rewards for different accomplishments. Different rewards are promised to different Christians in Revelation 2 & 3 depending on what each church overcomes. In Luke 22:30 the apostles will sit on 12 thrones. This isn’t promised to all Christians. I could go on with several other scriptures. I used to believe as you but have had to change my thinking as I have seen many scriptures like those above.
Alexander wrote, “These precious stones, gold or silver or wood and straw are people.”
>>>
So, which people are gold, and which of us are wood, Alexander? (I may not want to know…) This really does sound like differential reward of the most perverse variety. If I bring people to Christ, and they turn out well fifty years later, I get a commission on them. If, fifty years later, they are only “silver” grade believers, I get something less. If they turn out to be straw Christians, I guess they get burned up and I make no commission on that sale. This is a really odd view, and something for which I can find no biblical traction.
A more reasonable reading would suggest that some of our works in this life are of lasting value, and others less so. God values them for what they are. (That’s having our works judged, BTW.) Some of the foolish efforts which we claim to be “for God”, are really worthless in God’s view and won’t make the transition into the eternal at all, except as smoke.
Jesus taught us to lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven. Do we really think Jesus is encouraging us to “lay up for ourselves” eternal life? That idea would make us the savers/saviors, rather than Jesus. If it is NOT eternal life which we are storing for ourselves in the eternal, what IS it?
Laymond, one last comment: I believe that God expects Christians to obey. I don’t believe that grace means a free pass nor do I believe that we I don’t have to work and grow as Christians. I believe that we are saved by grace and out of gratitude we labor hard in the kingdom. Based on your prior comments you appear to continue to think that being saved by grace is a false doctrine and that I believe that works don’t matter. Oh, contrare. Works are very important for every Christian. Here is where we disagree: I don’t work for my salvation I work hard because of my salvation.
I don’t believe that the Bible contradicts itself so Romans (3:20, 3:38, 4:3, 4:5, 5:1) and James (2:24, 2:26) have to have some common meaning. I think that the context of James as a letter addressed numerous time to “my brethren” is for instruction. James is trying to teach the brethern something, probably something that they have missed or that they are doing wrong. The 2nd chapter of James begins with instuction about favoritism so apparently some of the brethren were being partial to well-to-do persons (vs. 1-7). Next James comments about the law and instucts the brethren that if they wish to be judged by the law of liberty, they must show mercy or they will not be shown mercy. He says that mercy wins over judgement (vs. 8-13). The last section instructs about faith and works (vs. 14-26). James begins by using and example of someone who says he has faith but no works (vs. 14). He then gives an example about false faith (vs. 15-17) and shows that how false faith is dead faith due to the lack of works. Vs. 18 teaches about true faith, it is exemplified by godly works. He mentions the difference between faith that merely gives mental assent (the Demons believe) and faith that goes beyond mental assent to include complete acceptance and compliance through works (vs. 19-20). He then demonstrates the latter with the examples of Abraham and Rahab (vs. 21-26). So James is teaching about true faith that leads to godly works and false faith that does not. One faith is alive and working while the other is dead… faith without works is dead. The demons have faith in that they believe in God but their faith is worthless because it doesn’t result in any godly works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of the existence of God.
So I see James teaching the brethren that if you say that you are a Christian, there should be some Godly works to prove it. 1st John 2:4 says essentially the same thing. All this leads me to the conjecture that the were some in the churches this letter was addressed to who saying they were Christians but were not showing any evidence of this by their works. James is telling them that if they are in this category, their faith is dead. They are the same as before they professed to be Christians and faith like this will not produce justification. They are just like the demons in that they give mental assent but nothing else. You can’t just say that you believe in Jesus, you have to demonstrate your faith by life actions. James is just teaching us what true faith that justifies looks like and it is faith like this that we should seek. So in the end, I conclude that we are still justified by faith. James is just helping us understand what faith that is true faith does and does not look like. At least, that’s the way I see it tonight.
Skip said “It doesn’t say “saved according to what we have done”. We are saved according to what Jesus has done.”
Skip you might make a good point except for one thing. You didn’t explain why the slothful servant was cast into the outer darkness. Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If he was not judged by the work he did, or did not do. Why was he denyed the joy of being with the master? Seems to me he was “judged” unworthy because of his deeds, not because of anything someone else did.
@Doug
Christ said, we’ll be judged for every unneccessary word that comes out of our mouths; I believe this aopplies to what we type and publish onthe internet as well. So, yes, what I write here is among the works Christ will judge on that day.
Alexander
@ Skip
Please try to understand the background of what Paul was writing about. When he’s referring to works he’s referring to the works of the Mosaic Law. Excklusively, Skip. The reason is the iongoing debate between some Jewish Christians and the rest of the church whether Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order to be saved (and had to keep all of the Mosaic Law). It’s the issue that was settled in Acts 15, yet it did not sink in with some until decades later. So each time, when Paul is speaking of faith vs. works he is contrasting saving obedient faith with the works of the Mosaic Law.
We DO what God demands, we fulfill the Law by walking in the Spuirit and doing God’s will in Christ. The Law was a shadow. WE are the circumcision in the Spirit, the true circumcision to which the outward cicumcisions was just a sign (see Colossians for this). In almost of his letters Paul had to deal with this.
There is not even a seemingly contraditiction therefore between Rom 4:4-5 and Jas 2:24.
But because Luther misunderstood the works in Romans, he set the direction of the Protestant misrepresentation of Paul’s writings. Luther’s works on the “Freedom of a Christian” shows this plainly that he completely misunderstood Paul.
Look at this one from Romans, and see how close it is to James:
This chapter 2 is very intreesting. Because here he affirms that our doing good is what will save us in the end. How and why? This is talking about Gentiles unto whose hearts the Law has been written. So when Paul says that “by nature” they can do good, I doubt that he speaks of our fallen nature, but of the renewed nature by the Spirit. So, this applies to Gentile Christians who without having been raised and nurtured on the Mosaic Law started doing God’s Law, because the Spirit wrote it unto their hearts.
This is contrasted to Jes who are merely outwardly circumcised and under the Law, but not inwardly:
So, by which standard are we going to be judged? By works. By which works?
And this is not about the outward letter on stone, but about the Law written onto our hearts. Paul writes chapter after chapter and then comes to chapter 8 where he sort of sums up the topic:
Do you see how Protestants constantly misread Paul when the y say: “No works … filthy rags!” as if our good works were in stench in God’s nose!
@ Charles:
Mor reasonable for whom? Anyhow, that#s not what Paul wrote. He wrote about persons he planted or built upon a foundation. Persons. And whether you or I prove to be fire resistant, the day will show. Rewriting scripture won’t help.
Alexander
Price, did Abraham see the promise of Isaac come true without doing some works with his wife?
Or did God declare Abraham righteous without him “repenting” of making Elieser his heir?
God declares us righteous when we repent and start doing the right things: Letting go of sin, start doing good.
And this righteousness is just a start, we have to proceed, continue in doing right. Therefore when Abraham offered Isaak, his righteousness was not merely shown, it was a fulfillment of the righteousness God attributed to him in the beginning. Righteousness is not a state, but a lifestyle. There is no righteousness without works. Righteousness without circumcision and the Mosaic Law, yes, but not without works of obedience.
And righteousness can be lost again:
Are you one who warns the righteous not to sin, or are you one who says to them “Peace, peace, all is secure!”?
Alexander
Alexander…This is how my Bible reads regarding Abraham Romans 4… And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
I only wish to see the sacrifice of Jesus be honored for what it is. You seem to want to turn Grace into an earned reward…Doesn’t matter whether it’s partial or full… having works merit Grace makes it no longer grace but law… Have at it…you’re determined to earn your way but you don’t get to heaven on frequent flyer miles…
Laymond, The answer to your question is clear. The slothful servant had NO faith. He was afraid of the master. He buried his talent. No faith = no grace = no salvation. I think this debate is fruitless because I believe your mind is made up and it makes no difference what contrary scriptures you are shown. Part of being a disciple is being a perpetual learner. Are you open to God showing you new things or is your goal merely to preserve what you previously learned? If you are open then this dialogue is a pleasure, if not then let’s hang up the gloves. As I said before, I used to believe similarly as you do until I opened my eyes to other scriptures outside of my old repertoire.
273 responses to this post as I write this, and we are no closer to agreement than when we began. But I think I have learned a few things. I hope everyone has learned something. Maybe we need to drop this and revisit it after a while. Maybe we need to let the Spirit do His work now because it appears that is our only hope.
Charles,
Alex is right, Paul is clearly talking about “persons” when speaking of building on top of the foundation which was already laid. The whole context is converts.
In chapter 9:1, Paul told them THEY were his work. And in scores of passages, he wrote about him being concerned that his converts would be disqualified/not remain faithful and him losing his reward. He was concerned about his work (conveerring them) would have ended up being in vain.
Besides, it makes no sense at all to argue that what we are building on top of the foundation already laid are our good deeds? And that our good deeds will be tested??
It is clear, thaton tip of the foundation already laid are the Christians added to the church. The living stones
Perhaps Jay can break the passage in 1 Cor. 3 down because it is so misunderstood
Doug, that might be the most intelligent thing said on this thread, as long as you are doing the work God gave you to do, why, ask why. The ways of God are not the ways of man.
Doug, I did learn something, arguments over the word of God are fueled by the desire to be right with God, not to condemn your brother. I see nothing wrong here.
Hank and Alexander, as my parting shot to this whole topic, I would simply say that the consensus of most scholars on the stones which are build upon the foundation in 1st Cor. 3:5-15 is that they are either the doctrines or teachings of the gospel teachers or the works of individual believers. I haven’t personally run across an opinion that the stones represent are people before. Since this is a CofC blog and most of the other posters aren’t running to you conclusions on the “people” interpetation, I’m guessing that this isn’t a widely held view in the CofC but I could be wrong on that. So, that’s where we are and that’s probably where we’ll stay until we can corner Paul in heaven and ask him what he was talking about. That’s not the only question I’ll have for him. 😉
Skip said , “The slothful servant had NO faith. He was afraid of the master. He buried his talent. No faith = no grace = no salvation”
Skip, explain to me the complete parable, not just one line.
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
What was this servant afraid of, “I knew thee that thou art an hard man,” seems to me anyway he was afraid if he failed, he would be punished severely . and seems to me he knew his lord pretty well. his lord showed no forgiveness, His lord showed no, grace, only judgment.
You say he had no faith, faith in what, the master had promised him nothing.
It could only be no faith in himself to do the job, and you say it is wrong to have faith in yourself.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, (you evil, lazy servant) thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: (neither slothful or wicked, mean faithless)
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Exd 22:25 If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Deu 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury:
But then there is this.
Pro 28:8 He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor. (seems to me you can charge usury, but you need to give it to the poor)
I have never been able to explain this, one reason I stay away from the “talents parable”.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. ( I don’t know if this is the way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is, “the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer)
Is this the lesson from this? Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
If that is the lesson then the one with the less ability, is the one who is lost.
I thought the bible taught the one with the less ability, needs the most help.
Doug,
The Bible, in other places, says that we are “living stones being built up a spiritual house” and it is obviously on top of the foundation spoken if in 1 Cor. 3.
How does it make any sense to say that we are building on top of the foundation already laid with “our teachings” and/or our “individual works”, as you suggest?
As if I am building my doctrines/teachings and individual works on top of the foundation, which is Christ, and my teachings are gonna be tested and either withstand the fire or else my teaching will be burned up? And I will suffer loss if/when my teachings doesn’t make it???
Regardless of from whomever you got this idea, it just doesn’t make any sense. The church is a spiritual house made up of spiritual stones (actual people), and the entire spiritual building with all of its individual stones are built on top of the foundation spoken of in 1 Cor. 3. Whoever denies such plain teaching is probably trying to deny the fact that some stones (members of the church) will not persevere in the end.
But in the same house (church) are both vessels of honor and dishonor (some gold and some clay – 2 Tim 2:20) and the gold and clay vessels are people there, just as they are in 1 Cor 3.
Oh, and the vessels (Christians) can change from one material to another 2 Tim 2:21.
The idea that WE somehow incorporate people into the house of God finds no biblical analog, either in fact or metaphor. We do not add these “stones”, God does. I think some have taken this metaphor with such literality that they cannot differentiate between a metaphoric “precious stone” and a metaphoric “living stone”. A rock is a rock, I suppose, no matter the context.
The foundation which is Christ is both a personal foundation and a corporate one. The latter comes from the former. Paul, as one called to build, helped establish such foundations in those he taught, and he continued to assess whether the communities of believers continued in that solid attachment to the Corner, or whether they shifted– placing their identity in other things.
Hank (still trying to extract myself from this thread), I am well aware of the scriptures you refer to but I am restricting myself to the letter to the Church at Corinth where verses 3:5-15 are found. It is a self contained teaching from Paul to a Church that has many issues. The particular issue in 3:5-15 being that the Church has aligned itself with with it’s former teachers, Paul and Apollos, to the point of creating division as a result. It’s not a division caused by what Paul and Apollos taught them but rather a sectarian divison caused by pride and envy. Paul does refer to the people as “God’s building” but for the purpose of telling the people that he had started the work on “God’s building” and Apollos had continued the work. It is rather obvious that some other teachers were now teaching things that created sectarian division ( I am of Paul and I am of Apollos) and all the misery that went with it. Paul simply refers to them as “another” in vs. 10. I don’t think that “another” refers back to Apollos because neither Paul or Apollos would have ever taught the things that were now creating the problems in the Corinthian Church. Today, we are many generations separated from either Paul or Apollos but people continue to teach all sorts of things. The admonishment to the people of the Church at Corinth still continues, we need to teach that which is built on the sure foundation of of Jesus Christ. This isn’t always a easy task. I have heard a lot of weird things from preachers and teachers and I have heard a lot of things that were very precious too. Paul is telling those that would teach that they need to take care about what they teach because one day, those teachings will be tested. I see this as especially relevant to the Church of Christ where many teachings have created sectarian divisions and I believe that upon testing, which will happen, many of these teachings will be identified as wood, hay or straw. One day what I am saying and what you and Alexander have said about these verses will be tested and for sure, one or both will go up in smoke. Both can’t be correct. Both may be wrong. We need to be careful about what we teach. But, I am not offering this as a teaching, it’s just my interpetation of the verses in question. As far as I am concerned this is not a work. A person can take it or leave it. I’m pretty sure you and Alexander will leave it. You’re still my brothers either way.
@ Price
I see. You’ve got your verse and cling to it. Forget about context, forget about word-definitions – just stick with the plain wording of this verse. If it’s fine with you, I don’t bother … all my attempts to show you a bit more about the background obviously met deaf ears. So be it.
Alexander
Charles, you say:
Paul says:
The one “who works”, as Paul used it it Romans 4 is the one who NEVER sins. For, who whould have salvation “owed” him, other than the one who never sins.
The word “works” is used with different meanings in different passages. But remember, God said that to the one “who works”, his reward is actually DUE him.
Think about it
286 responses to why ysome leave the churches of Christ for an Evangelical Gospel. I also think we can leave it at this, but isn’t it an interesting question? For once it was about the understanding of the Gospel and salvation and not about minor side issues. The differences in our understanding – however – and I am thankful for that, did not turn us into enemies toward each other. We also did not just agree to disagree, we debated and tired to convince the others, because this is really REALLY an important topic.
Well, we haven’t solved it. Not yet. But a break will do all of us good. We all might need time to let the one or other thought sink in a little deeper before we once again hit the keys …
God bless you all
Alexander
The tragedy on the “OneInJesus” website is that we feel compelled to take sides with against brothers and sisters in Christ. Wouldn’t it be better to remain neutral and listen to the other persons perspective and try really hard to understand where they are coming from before we draw lines or conclusions?
Pingback: Faith That Works: On the Meaning of “Works” | One In Jesus