Flesh vs. Spirit
(Rom 8:5 ESV) 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
The essence of the Spirit’s indwelling is that we think differently. That is, of course, exactly the lesson of Jeremiah 31 among several other Old Testament Spirit passages. God promises to change our inward being.
(Rom 8:6-8 ESV) 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Implicit in Paul’s teaching is that the Spirit does not overwhelm our wills. We choose whether to “set the mind on the Spirit.” The Spirit is available to us, and works to help us, but ultimately, the choice is ours.
But if we try to make it on our own, the end is death. The only path to life is through the help of the Spirit. And those who don’t have the Spirit have no help at all. (And, yes, Romans 8:8 speaks against the “available light” theory that some without the Spirit might please God).
The indwelling Spirit
(Rom 8:9-10 ESV) 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Again, the allusion to Ezekiel 37 — the valley of dry bones — is palpable. The Spirit gives life.
But now Paul weaves a new thread into the argument — the idea that the Spirit “dwells” in you. This language hearkens back to God’s dwelling among the Israelites in the desert, first as a column of smoke and fire and than as the glory — Shekinah — in the Tabernacle. God’s glory later dwelled in the Temple.
God’s dwelling was a means of leadership — showing the direction to move the camp — and a place of communication and worship through sacrifice.
(Exo 29:42-46 ESV) 42 It shall be a regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet with you, to speak to you there. 43 There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory. 44 I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. Aaron also and his sons I will consecrate to serve me as priests. 45 I will dwell among the people of Israel and will be their God. 46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.
(Exo 40:33-38 ESV) 33 And he erected the court around the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the screen of the gate of the court. So Moses finished the work. 34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 36 Throughout all their journeys, whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the people of Israel would set out. 37 But if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not set out till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the LORD was on the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel throughout all their journeys.
If you were to read through the prophecies we’ve covered about the Spirit in their contexts, you’d find repeated references to Exo. 29:35-36: “I … will be their God, and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.” For instance —
(Jer 31:33 ESV) 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Eze 37:27 ESV) 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It gives me goosebumps. Paul draws the natural conclusion in Romans 8: God will dwell among his people through an indwelling Spirit. Of course.
The indwelling we Christians receive is like God’s indwelling of Israel during the Exodus and in the Temple. Therefore, we become “temples” ourselves, and thus places of sacrifice and places in which God speaks. We are led by the Spirit.
As the Israelites did, we can grumble, be unfaithful, and refuse the Spirit’s leading, but we will be led. And like Israel, we just might choose not to follow.
(Rom 8:11 ESV) 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
The presence of the Spirit promises life — flesh that is no longer mere dry bones today and that receives eternal life after death. We know it’s true because God has already done it for Jesus. Therefore, all who have the Spirit will be resurrected — which recapitulates Rom 8:1 —
(Rom 8:1 ESV) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
The indwelling of the Spirit assures us that God will be true to his promises. Thus, the absurd notion that there are damned Christians is plainly refuted. All Christians are saved!
Christian call fall away, but when that happens, they are no longer in Christ Jesus and no longer possess the Spirit — and they cannot please God (Rom 8:8). This is, therefore, not something that happens quickly or often. And not every sin or doctrinal error puts us there.
(Rom 8:12-13 ESV) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Paul returns to the fact that we have a choice, and therefore we must remember that we owe everything to Jesus: “We are debtors.”
The proper response is to “put to death the deeds of the body,” that is, “by the Spirit” — with the help of the Spirit — live penitent lives in which we grow into Christ by defeating sin.
Thus, our salvation — whether we live — depends not on whether we have already defeated sin but whether we are defeating sin. We are judged, not against perfection but by the direction of our lives.
Jay, thanks for this series of posts. For me it has been one of the best ones on your site, very informative and helpful.
k
Jay, not sure Romans 8:6-8 argues well for your “anti-available light” theory… the passage seems to compare those that set their minds on the flesh OR the Spirit…How can one set their minds on something that they aren’t aware of …In this passage it appears the person is allowed to make a conscience choice between flesh and Spirit…
Price,
Jesus said “That which is born of flesh is flesh; That which is born of Spirit is Spirit.” How, other than by being born of the Spirit, can one who is born of flesh be anything other than flesh?
What Jesus said was, “that which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit.” Jerry quotes it differently. Every human has fleshly inclinations and spiritual calls. Christians are helped by God through His Spirit. But the choice is still within the human. Good or bad. Right or wrong. And do we not see that some who are not possessed by God’s Spirit are nonetheless choosing good rather than bad and right rather than wrong? We do not understand what Jesus said if we think that God’s Spirit ever overwhelms and takes control in our lives so that we no longer are making the choices on which direction to follow.
And I should have agreed that Jay’s comments are indeed helpful and pertinent. We are offered God’s help in making decisions. It’s our choice. And our continuing choices determine our eternal destiny. That’s an important thing to remember. Daily our crosses we bear, testifying to our continuing to follow the Master. And He calls for us to help our brothers and love our brothers and even our enemies, and to show that love by our words and actions.
Should we also realize that capitalizing the word “spirit” is a choice made by a human? The contrast between flesh and spirit is between human flesh and human spirit. Every human possesses life (flesh) so long as the person lives and every person has a spirit which directs the actions of the person. And Paul makes clear that the human flesh and human spirit have different goals and often are in conflict. Many people who are not “in Christ” are nonetheless controlled by choices they make of a spiritual nature which let us see they are “good” people. Some non-Christians demonstrate better choices than some Christians. Their spiritual nature caused them to deny the fleshly appeals common to mankind. Does any reader fail to recognize some non-Christians who are model citizens and wonderful neighbors even though they do not possess God’s Spirit? Their spirits overcame fleshly temptations. And that’s what Paul calls for us who are in Christ also to do, that is, to overcome fleshly temptations. We should not speak or write as if all Christians lived better lives than all who are not in Christ. It would not be true if we did make the claim. Nor should we misunderstand what Paul wrote as if he were making such a claim. Paul calls for us to let our spiritual nature overcome our fleshly desires. He insists that he also, after long years as a Christian, faced temptations and had to work to overcome them. His spirit against his flesh. Our spirits against OUR flesh. Paul does not say God’s Spirit will contest against our flesh. Such an unequal contest would have the Spirit always the winner. It’s OUR spirit against our flesh. With God’s help we can win.
Jerry… that’s a good question…To try and answer it is difficult for me but I offer this passage of scripture as a weak substitute for a convincing argument… Rom 2:14-16 “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” Now, I’m no Billy Graham, but doesn’t this say that a man who is not aware of God, without any instruction in God’s truth, can choose a path that is similar to God’s truth by living according to a good conscience because God has “written on his heart” what is the basics of truth? Doesn’t it say that God will judge the man based on whether or not he lived accordingly? It seems to me that the “available light” was the light placed in the man by God Himself and is entirely sufficient for God to judge him accordingly.
Not sure exactly what it means to judge the secrets of his heart “by Christ Jesus” but it appears that it is consistent with the thought that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus… even a Gentile, with no Law, no instruction in righteousness…only a conscience that is somehow the work of God Himself…
Good post Price!
All men, just like we teach those in the Old Testament sins rolled forward until Jesus came, so it is for those that did not have the law.
All will be judged by Christ Jesus, and it means ALL.
Jesus has been around from the beginning on this old earth and in many forms. We only are told of a few, who knows how many?
We do know if all was written the world would not hold all the books so a lot is not told.
Price wrote,
(Rom 8:3-8 ESV) 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Yes, Christians have a choice. Non-Christians have no choice because they don’t have the Spirit and so can’t choose the Spirit. That doesn’t mean they aren’t of the flesh.
“us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” is speaking of Christians who aren’t in rebellion.
“to set the mind on the flesh is death” refers to someone with a choice, that is, a Christian.
“the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot” Refers either to a Christian who rebels or a non-Christian.
“Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” refers, I think, to non-Christians. “In the flesh” refers not to a choice but a kind of nature. This is proved by —
(Rom 8:9 ESV) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
“If the Spirit of God dwells in you” speaks to any Christian. Therefore, those “in the flesh” are non-Christians.
Your argument assumes that “in the flesh” means “chooses to be in the flesh rather than in the Spirit” but that is not Paul’s argument. The Spirit hasn’t always been available, but now — through Jesus — the Spirit allows us to escape our sinful natures. And you have a fleshly nature whether you’ve heard the gospel or not.
(Rom 7:5 ESV) For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
(Rom 7:18 ESV) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
(Rom 7:25 ESV) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
I like to think of John on Patmos being in the spirit and observing things in heaven. One thing that has always moved me is his hearing the angels singing and especially what the words were they sang to the lamb Jesus.
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10
I believe what John saw and heard. Emphasis on the word EVERY! Doesn’t limit or exclude as we so often do.
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Roman 2:14-16
Jay, I agree that CHRISTIANS have a choice… I also believe that non-Christians have a choice except not so profound. They walk by their conscience which has been affected by the very hand of God. If God is Light and He makes His word available through their conscience is that not by definition, “available light.” 🙂
They just don’t have the joy of knowing Christ and the very power that it brings. You spoke of God prophesying that He would “write on the hearts of men”… Romans 2 would include non-Christians in that effort, would it not ? Now, when I say non-Christians I don’t mean atheists who denounce God but simply those who have not been taught. Unfortunately, even now in America that is not as uncommon as we would wish it to be.
It might be worth further thoughts: The Law written on hearts is a “New-Covenant-Prophecy”. It might well be that Paul is speaking of Gentile Christians who have not been raised nor submitted to the letters of the Mosaic Law, but prove by their conduct that God has written the Law onto their hearts – i.e. He incorporated them into the covenant without first having them circumcised. This reading is completely in line with the rest of Romans on this subject. And then it were not a text to proove the “available light” theory. … There is only one “fly in the soup”: “By nature”. Unless there is a way to incorporate “by nature” into this reading, there is room for the “available light”. Yet this leaves us with the other problem: How can a “New-Covenant-Prophecy” have a universal application even outside the knowledge of Christ?
Therefore I lean toward the understanding that Paul is talking about Gentile Christians here. If you see it the other way, it’s fine with me also. We both know how necessary the preaching of the Gospel is anyway – and we let God be the judge of mankind.
Price, so non-Christians who are good folks need to come to Christ so they’ll be happier, not to be saved? Most would probably tell you they’re perfectly happy as they are. What’s the point of evangelism? Saving souls or making people happier?
GT.. No, I think people need to come to know Jesus to live in the power of the Holy Spirit and to come to actually know the Creator of the Universe that loves them. I am not trying to replace a saving faith in Jesus, I’m just reading that passage and it says that their conscience, apparently impacted by the Father Himself, either accuses or “excuses” them. How is one “excused” and what does that mean? It says they are judged through Christ… It doesn’t say they are condemned through Christ…I probably have far more questions than answers but it does appear that God provides “something” for those who have not been adequately informed.
What I am not saying is that someone can reject the teaching that they receive and just “do it their way.”
“Available light” seems to make human understanding the prime factor, and the determinant one. But this seems to run counter to Romans 9. “Available light” squares with our concept of democracy and playground fairness: everybody gets a turn, and we have to play fair. I’m not sure this is really a biblical concept as applied to a sovereign God.
Charles…I don’t disagree totally with your statement… I just have trouble “squaring” the passage I quoted above where a man is “convicted or excused” based on the “law” that is written on his heart by God… I’m all ears as to how a person is judged through Christ and is “excused” based on his/her conscience where they have not been given the instructions except through whatever “written on their heart” means…. Does God have mercy upon a person who has not been privy to the “law?” It seems so… Thus, there does seem to be some “fairness” that comes into play… but, it’s not entirely “human” in concept if indeed God puts into a man’s conscience the things that He wishes for the man to understand who has not had opportunity to be taught…
The problem is: Our flesh stand is opposition/rebellion against God. the natural man has no other option than to be in the flesh and to live according to the flesh.
Our flesh CANNOT submit to God. So, what is the only way out – even for a relatively righteous pharisee as Paul was (See Philippians 3)?
So where does “available light” fit into this? I therefore conclude that Rom 2:14-16 does not speak about unregenerated Gentiles, but about Gentile Christians who have never been under the Law of Moses. This makes most sense to me.
Alexander
Alexander, I don’t know enough about this to disagree with you but to simply ask questions that I don’t have an answer to… The passage says that what they do “by nature” is a law unto themselves. It does not say that they are “in Christ” and therefore they are somehow now under the Mosaic Law through Christ… When it says they do it by nature, what does that mean? It also seems to strongly suggest that it is their own conscience that is somehow impacted by God…not the indwelling Holy Spirit… It also states that they will be convicted or excused by their conscience which seems in contradiction to the Romans 8:1 passage that says “in Christ” there is NO condemnation…
Price,
you are on the right track and in your thinking.
God has been worshiped by man in many ways since Adam and Eve. Most ignorantly by nature. God puts something of Himself inside all of us God made creatures so we call Him Father and He refers to us as His children.
Jesus blood is very plentiful and covers a lot of sins and even more important, a LOT of different peoples through out the ages sins.
Read my post from Revelation 5:9-10.
John saw and heard singing of those
Jesus blood purchased of every tribe, language, people and nation. That includes those that never heard of Jesus, the OT, Israel or any others never blessed with knowing from the Bible.
Was John Lying? The singers lying? Or is it true!
Or, can we explain why it doesn’t meet our teaching by saying it is too symbolic?
Reading it seems pretty hard to misunderstand to me unless there is an agenda.
Its an explanation of your NATURE question.
Bu Nature law is not for OT times or long ago in a place far away.
There are many in the world today that fits this as well.
All are saved by Jesus, then and now whether they know, or knew, it or not.
@ Price
You probably missed my 5:56 post. Check on that again.
Alexander
@ Alexander…perhaps you are right… it still seems quite an odd way to teach Grace through faith in Christ…
Price
I think Paul is simply saying that all men, whether Jews or Gentiles know right from wrong. The Jews have the law of God in written form. The Gentiles have the law of God written on their hearts, in their consciences. The Jews violate the written law, the Gentiles violate their consciences. Both are under condemnation without Christ.
The only open question is, that “law written on the heart” is a new-covenant phrase (Jer 31) – to equate it with human conscience is questionable. Human nature, as Paul is explaining later, is unable to fulfill the purpose of the Law – so what wozuld be the point of Rom 2 then? Just a hypothetical suggestion of which we already know: “In fact, they don’t even by nature obey their conscience anyway …” (again a blow for “available light”) …
Alexander
@ Alexander.. It does that they are “convicted or EXCUSED” as a result of their response to their conscience…So, it does appear that they are given some slack for how they measured up to perfection by Christ’s own judgement… Again, not necessarily arguing the point…just looking at what it actually says verses trying to impose my personal feelings on the passage…
Well, we might as well leave that question to the scholars while living according and in the light we have received 😉
Alexander
@ Alexander…agreed !!
Price wrote: “…but, it’s not entirely “human” in concept if indeed God puts into a man’s conscience the things that He wishes for the man to understand who has not had opportunity to be taught…”
>>
What is the difference between “being taught” and God providing us with that he wishes us to understand? That sounds a bit like “they all will be taught by God”.
Charles, I certainly can identify with the uncertainty, or apparent uncertainty of this passage. I don’t pretend to have the ability to fully comprehend what “written on their hearts” means. But, the passage seems clearly to suggest that in the absence of the “law” which is God’s direct instruction, that they are judged and convicted or excused by their adherence to whatever was written on their heart (conscience)… Perhaps there is some intent by God to avoid the utter corruption of man by giving him a conscience which provides, in the absence of moral instruction, a “basic” moral code to which one is held responsible…??? It does seem that humans are unique in that we do have a conscience as compared to frogs. Or Democrats…LOL
Alabama John affirms, “Read my post from Revelation 5:9-10. John saw and heard singing of those Jesus blood purchased of every tribe, language, people and nation. That includes those that never heard of Jesus, the OT, Israel or any others never blessed with knowing from the Bible.”
Why should anyone knowing gospel truths assume that this prophetic vision includes those that never heard of Jesus? Jesus wants His gospel taught in every land everywhere. Those who respond to the gospel are many “of every tribe, language, people and nation.” Why would anyone assume the prophecy included ones who had never turned to Jesus for salvation? Just because we will be widely varied does not mean that the group must include ones outside the Christian family, as I read it.
Jesus wants his gospel taught everywhere, that’s true, but it hasn’t been.
Most of the people that have lived on this earth from Adam and Eve to present have not heard of Jesus but Revelations as I quoted says they were still saved by Jesus blood. I believe that word of God is true.
To think all throughout time have been lost and will burn in hell except those of us few in the COC that have all the light understood just right for the last 200 years and even worse if possible, only of those few to be saved in the COC, even fewer among us are those that believe as I do. The others of the few in the COC that disagree with me will join them in hell.This is ridiculous and a sin! Talk about Pharisees! This is what is believed and preached by those that disagree with available light.
I still do not understand how anyone can object to Available Light thinking.
Let the one step forward that believes they have an understanding of it all revealed just right.
No one?
The discussions on this board demonstrates the differences in amount of light we each have on different subjects.
You see, we all are living and worshiping according to our individual available light just as so many have done since the beginning of time. The only difference is the degree of light available to each of us and the degree of our understand it and then the degree of obedience.
. We are to live by faith and not by sight.
That applies from Adam to now.
Ray,
It says EVERY!
Jesus blood was shed for ALL mankind. All were saved from His blood.
That includes those for thousands of years we have not even heard of, mentioned in the Bible or not, from the past from Adam to present.
Jesus has been around a long time. He didn’t first appear from Mary.
Price,
“Written on their hearts” is a reference to Jer 31, which is a prophecy of the receipt of the Spirit by God’s children.
(Jer 31:33 ESV) 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Compare —
(2Co 3:3 ESV) And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
@Jay… so how would you relate that prophecy to the the Romans 2 passage I mentioned above… Gentiles without the Law…? Similar to what Alexander said ?
Price,
I’m putting together a short series interpreting Romans 2 — just because you asked. And because it’s become much clearer to me know that I’ve begun thinking about Paul in light of Jer 31 and other prophetic passages about the Spirit. It fits together so much better when you read with that background in mind.
Jay…looking forward to being enlightened !!
Price,
The series is written and posted. It’s in four parts, scheduled for later this week. (I know the anticipation will keep you up nights …)
Jay… your posts always keep me up…:)
James 1:27 gives us a pretty good glimpse of an “overall” do list…check in and look after folks that can’t do it for themselves and try not to get any of the “world” on you… We all know that some things are good to do any time you care to do it and unfortunately, there is a never ending supply of those that need help.. Really need help… But, the most rewarding moments of my life have been the times when God whispered in my ear “do this”…not really understanding why, reluctant or even down right rebellious, I did it anyway…To find out why later was a very humbling and intimate moment with the Lord… Those moments don’t show up on a check list…You have to be willing to listen and be obedient to the voice of God. Over time…you begin to recognize “the voice”…and THAT’S when the Kingdom begins to come alive and be real and not just in the book of Acts, or I Corinthians… That’s when churches begin to grow…That’s when we forget about our differences and focus on strengthening one another in what we agree on… it’s where we understand how to love each other.. The Kingdom unites…
His voice will tell us through our conscience when we are walking by our flesh and not the indwelling Spirit of our Lord Jesus as explained in Gal 5.
Gal 5:
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.