Romans 6
Let’s skip to Romans 6, where Paul takes up the question again.
But realize that in chapter 4, Paul explains in detail how salvation by faith is based on God’s covenant with Abraham. In chapter 5, Paul explains how we’re “much more” saved after our initial conversion and then considers how it is that the more we know of God’s will we know, the more accountable we become. This ultimately sets up chapter 7, in which Paul declares that the more he wants to obey, the more he fails — leading to chapter 8, which explains the solution.
Therefore, chapters 4 – 7 all recapitulate in much more detail themes introduced in chapters 1 – 3, especially chapter 3. Hence, chapter 6 is not the answer in its fullness, but a step toward understanding the answer — which shows up in chapter 8 and is further expanded in chapters 12 – 15. And chapter 8 assumes you’ve paid attention to chapters 1 – 7.
Our traditional verse-by-verse teaching often loses the larger context — and indeed Paul’s writing can be difficult to follow, just because he thinks we’re used to thinking about Abraham and David etc. as exemplars of faith and salvation. It takes a lot of practice.
(Rom 6:1-2 ESV) What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Uh, in what sense did we “die to sin”? We want to skip to the lesson on baptism, but baptism only illustrates the dying to sin. It’s not the dying to sin itself.
In my upbringing, baptism was emphasized as the moment sins were forgiven, which is quite true. But we never really talked about baptism being the moment when we died to sin.
After all, we all still sin after baptism, so what’s really changed? In the theology of my childhood, Paul could only have been talking about trying harder, which is obviously not really his point — per chapter 7.
This is the first time Paul speaks in these terms in Romans. And so he explains himself somewhat —
(Rom 6:3-8 ESV) 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
So baptism is crucifixion with Christ? A death to sin? We are somehow mystically “united with him in a death like his.” How? What happens?
V. 6 declares that our “old self” was crucified with Jesus. What’s an “old self”? Is there a “new self”?
This verse looks forward to —
(Rom 8:10 ESV) 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Indeed, a major theme of Romans 8 is the contrast between the flesh/sin/death and the Spirit/life. But if Paul is talking about a transformation performed by the Spirit, as he’ll explain in chapter 8, why not say so already? Why only hint at the Spirit’s role?
Well, in Paul’s mind, he’s already explained this chapters and chapters ago when he wrote one of the linchpin verses in Romans —
(Rom 2:28-29 ESV) 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
This is a key to unlocking much of the book. Assume that this is, in Paul’s mind, obvious to any First Century Jew or God-fearing Gentile who grew up attending synagogue and reading Torah.
I’ve covered this several times, but it’s so important to understanding Paul — not just Romans — that I’ll cover the material in an abbreviated format. But here’s the key: the coming of the Spirit was not an obscure idea in Paul’s day. It had been prophesied by Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. The outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost (and thereafter) was a momentous event in the minds of First Century Christians.
Therefore, when Paul refers to the ancient texts about the Spirit, he does so understanding that his readers know, understand, and savor these texts. Just as you or I might refer to “the crucifixion” and fully expect our readers to know much of the massive theological content of the word, Paul could do the same regarding “circumcision … of the heart.” We miss it because (a) the Spirit has largely been ignored in our tradition and (b) we don’t really study the Torah. Paul’s tradition was very different from ours.
We begin in —
(Deu 10:12-16 ESV) 12 “And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the LORD, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.
As the Jews were preparing to enter and conquer the Promised Land, God reminds them of the Greatest Command (v. 12, recapitulating Deut. 6:5), and then tells them that Judaism is all about the heart. Therefore, they must “circumcise” their hearts — that is, dedicate their hearts to God.
Near the end of Deuteronomy, God pronounces curses on the Jews if they disobey and blessings if they obey. He then promises that, even if they disobey, he’ll redeem them — if they repent.
(Deu 30:3 ESV) 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
But this time, his relationship with his children will change. Instead of being responsible to circumcise their own hearts — to try even harder — God will take on that responsibility —
(Deu 30:6 ESV) 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Thus, after being exiled, and repenting, God will restore them so that they can truly obey the Greatest Command — and God himself will reshape their hearts so that this will happen!
Thus, when Jeremiah speaks of the need to repent — before the Exile — he says,
(Jer 4:4 ESV) 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.”
The Exile hadn’t happened yet. God had not yet fulfilled his promise to circumcise their hearts himself. It was up to the Jews — and they failed.
In chapter 31, however, Jeremiah looks ahead to the time when the Jews are restored after the Exile. Then things will be very different —
(Jer 31:31-34 ESV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
God himself will transform the hearts of his people! He’ll fulfill the promise of Deuteronomy 30:6.
Another obvious parallel is —
(Eze 36:26-27 ESV) 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
And here we see the Spirit explicitly credited with being the means by which God honors his promise.
In a parallel series of prophecies, the Spirit is promised at the end of the Exile —
(Isa 44:3 ESV) 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
In one of the most beautiful passages in all of Scripture, Ezekiel sees God giving life back to the dead by the Spirit —
(Eze 37:1-14 NIV) The hand of the LORD was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “Sovereign LORD, you alone know.”
4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD. ‘”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'”
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet–a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD. ‘”
I never get tired of reading that passage.
Now, add to this David’s Psalms about his sin with Bathsheba (which Paul repeatedly quotes in Romans) —
(Psa 51:10-11 NIV) 10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
This sure seems to associate a transformed heart with the presence of the Spirit!
Therefore, every single time Paul refers to our hearts being changed or transformed or circumcised or given life, he’s thinking of these passages.
Are we being transformed from death to life? Well, obviously, that’s Ezekiel 37’s vision of dry bones! Are our hearts being circumcised? Well, yes, just as God promised in Deuteronomy. By the Spirit? Yes, just as Ezekiel promised. And that means we’re being transformed from dead bones to an army reshaped by God to be God’s own.
Do we need our hearts re-formed to overcome sin — as David did? Then God will do that by the Spirit — once we have the Spirit. That’s what the Spirit does.
Why don’t we have pages and pages of detail about the Spirit’s work in Romans? Because Paul assumes we’re read the Scriptures. Why teach what his students already know? His job was to tie it all together and connect it to Jesus.
One reason we do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit is that we do not know the Old Testament. There is a reason that later in Romans Paul wrote,
Maybe one reason our hope and patience with God are so limited is that we have not learned from the Old Testament Scriptures to be able to see what God is up to.
Thanks for this excellent post!
“Thus, after being exiled, and repenting, God will restore them so that they can truly obey the Greatest Command — and God himself will reshape their hearts so that this will happen.”
So, was the every day OT child of God actually able to “truly obey the Greatest Command” back then? Or, did God command them to do something which the could not actually do?
Do you really believe it is easier for you love God and your neighbor today than it was for the OT children of God??
Hank, the entire Law was given in part to remind men that we cannot do all that God commands. Hence the need for a Savior. Hence the need for the power of the Spirit of God in our lives. Hence the need for enough humility to recognize those two needs.
Charles,
You missed my point. My point is that the OT saints were just as able to love and obey God as we are today. I don’t believe that after Pentecost, God BEGAN enabling his children to start being able to “truly obey the Greatest Commandment” for the first time.
I don’t believe that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit allows us to love God and each other today more than the children of God were capable of doing long ago.
Rather, the faithful were able to produce just as much fruit then as we are today. They could be just as faithful to God as we can.
Some make it seam as though before Pentecost, the children of God were commanded to love God with all their heart bit were not actually able to. I deny that. That’s all.
But that does not mean I don’t believe we need a Savior. Easy…
“Do we need our hearts re-formed to overcome sin — as David did? Then God will do that by the Spirit — once we have the Spirit. That’s what the Spirit does.” question; (when do we receive the spirit)?
First off, Jay I say we do need a changed heart in order to live in faith, faith strong enough to overcome sin. I am going to do something that is rarely done here, quote Jesus,on faith.
Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
But this is the same Jesus who said.
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jay, is this the same faith that saves your soul, or does it take a lesser amount to perform that miracle. question; (how does a person show such faith, by words or deeds.? )
No, I do not have faith that can still turbulent waters, nor to move mountains with speech. but I do have faith that God can do those things, and I do have faith that God can save my soul from destruction.
Charles, O contraire, God’s people in the OT were at a severe disadvantage to NT saints because they could not obey the command to love God. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in the Christian enables us to will and to act. In Philippians 2;13 it says, “for it is God who works IN you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” God works IN us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. As the Bible also says, he gives us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26). Our OT brethren did not have this advantage.
O what glorious grace to be given the Spirit.
We don’t need to argue whether the Jews could have obeyed God. They could. God does not ask more than it is possible to give. Jesus proved it is possible.
What we do need to do is to stay focused on the point Jay is making: we have been given not only a new lease on life but an altogether NEW life with God’s own Spirit within us and among us as fellow believers in community serving Him.
I am reminded of the old Imperials song, Water Grave. I am also reminded of some much newer songs about the new life we have in Christ – new in Spirit perhaps most of all. These ‘new lives’ are new to us as compared with the old ways we lived … even the very best of us who were raised by believing parents in communities of believing followers of Jesus, with all of their and our own imperfections covered by the blood of Jesus and new life coursing through Spirit-filled veins.
Death to enslavement to sin and its consequences. Life with the life-giving and transforming Spirit of God within us. And yes, we still struggle to throw off the old habits of acting like people enslaved to sin. We struggle because the change is so radical, even though we want it enough to die to get it. We struggle to see how to live out this new life … and thus we NEED the Spirit within us to guide us and help us find God’s way in our lives, individually and together. We are not alone – not isolated from God anymore and not isolated from others who also have died to live.
What a wonderful gift from our Father!
God help us to see the gift for all it is worth and to humble ourselves to be transformed into living His way in ways we still struggle to conceive and grasp.
Grizz
“God’s people in the OT were at a severe disadvantage to NT saints because they could not obey the command to love God. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.”
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?
Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?
And on, and on it goes throughout the old testament. where man was filled with the Spirit of God
Grizz, you wrote:
“…we NEED the Spirit within us to guide us and help us find God’s way in our lives, individually and together.”
Do you believe the OT saints had the same guidance and help? If not, how were they able to “find God’s way” in their lives back then?
The promised indwelling is for each and every believer today and was only limited to a few Jews in the OT. So why did God promise the Jews that in the future they would receive a new Spirit (Ezekiel) if they already had access to the Spirit in the OT? There is a difference between the Spirit “coming upon” or “dwelling within”. I contend that the every single Christian has the indwelling Spirit after faith and Baptism. No such pervasive opportunity was given to the Jews under the law.
“The promised indwelling is for each and every believer today”
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Hank asked, “Do you believe the OT saints had the same guidance and help? If not, how were they able to “find God’s way” in their lives back then?”
Hank, I believe the Jews had all they needed. Was it exactly the same? I don’t know. Was it sufficient to be able to relate to God and be saved? Absolutely. Did it include access to the Spirit of God, whether within them or among them? Yes.
As already noted by others, there were several/many OT saints who were noted as being filled with the Spirit of God. Most of us would love to be known that way. Better yet, the assurances from God that those who put their trust in Him will not falter.
According to what God told Moses, one of the easiest ways for a Jew to “find God’s way” was to know the Law … to read it daily and memorize it and keep it dearly stored in their hearts. The psalmists repeatedly write of meditating on God’s Word both day and night and how it is the light unto their paths that illuminates God’s way for them.
The Word of God did not only become living and active after Jesus died. It is and always has been living and active, and in it the way of God is revealed. Of course, we have the advantage of an example of perfect obedience in fulfillment of the entire Law in the person of Jesus Christ. The writer to the Hebrews makes that abundantly clear throughout his/her writing. Jesus was the best of the best revelation of God – seen in everyday life walking the walk and talking the talk and making both clear to those who were willing to truly trust God (unlike the demons someone mentioned).
Does that answer what you were asking?
Grizz
Grizz,
Sounds good to me, brother 🙂
Every true believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is clear NT teaching. Paul says that we can quench that spirit. We can also lose it if we leave the Lord. Laymond, perhaps you know when the point of leaving the Lord occurs. I can’t make that call.
In my lexicon a believer is someone who believes and backs it up with their life. I assume everyone in this audience shares the same conviction. If someone doesn’t have the Holy Spirit then they aren’t Biblically a believer.
Skip, do you mean to say if a person does not back their faith with works, they are not a true believer. sounds familiar.
If a person does not back their faith with works then they actually don’t have faith. Faith by definition leads to works. Just as in Hebrews 11, each new thought begins with “By faith …” followed by action on someones part. I have always believed that way but I still know that my works don’t save me only the blood of Christ.
It seems that some leaders, prophets and priests of the OT did have the indwelling Spirit as Christians have today and were able to obey and love God. Most of the Israelites didn’t have the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit and were continually wandering off into idolatry. No, the majority the Israelites and Jews in OT times could not love and obey God as well as Christians with the Spirit.
See what happens when one believes that the indwelling Holy Spirit enables one to love God and their neighbors? When one believes and teaches the the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit began indwelling the children of God on Pentecost SO THAT THEY CAN “truly obey” God’s greatest command — it clearly implies that they were not able to truly obey God before. Such is absurd.
It’s crazy to see so many here flat out claim that the OT saints were incapable of loving God with all of their heart.
As if God commanded them to do so (which he did) and then realize that his children were
As if God commanded them to do so (which he did) and then realize that his children were incapable of truly loving him as he had commanded.
How about Adam and Eve? Were they capable of truly obeying the Greatest Commandment even though they did not have the indwelling of the Spirit?
Hank,
You’ve attempted to make the same point in several comments, but I don’t see where you’ve attempted a reasonable exegesis of the OT passages I cite. If I’m reading them incorrectly, what do they really mean?
What do the passages in Deu, Jer, Eze and Psa mean in light of your interpretation? And understand that your interpretation will have to hold up against the interpretations given them by Paul, Jesus, and the author of Hebrews.
Jay, you wrote — “You’ve attempted to make the same point in several comments, but I don’t see where you’ve attempted a reasonable exegesis of the OT passages I cite. If I’m reading them incorrectly, what do they really mean?”
Jay, I believe that you are reading into the text your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (as do the vast majority of other Christians). As a result, there is more eisegeting taking place. Take Ez. 36:26-27 as an example — “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I’m pretty sure you understand this passage to be saying that beginning at Pentecost, God would send the third person of the godhead to personally indwell each believer and by means of that indwelling, the Holy Spirit would personally and directly alter and adjust said believers heart and thereby assist/encourage/enable/cause the believer to walk in the statutes of God and to obey his rules. Is that correct? However, all of that is assumed. The language is clearly figurative and not literal.
When God said he would give his people a new heart, he did not mean that they would then posses two hearts. Rather, he meant that their existing heart would be changed. He wasn’t even talking about an actual heart at all. He was referring to our mind, our attitude, our disposition, our affections. In the same sentence that he promised a new heart, he also promised a new spirit. Again, he did not mean that we would have an extra or replacement spirit, but that we would have a new attitude. The new “spirit” is not any more literal than is the new “heart”. Why make the new heart figurative, but the new spirit literal? God was merely saying that we would be more like him. We would have the same heart and spirit that God has. Our heart would be like his heart. Our spirit would be like his spirit. I believe that is a much more natural and consistent way of exegeting the passage.
You also asked — “What do the passages in Deu, Jer, Eze and Psa mean in light of your interpretation? And understand that your interpretation will have to hold up against the interpretations given them by Paul, Jesus, and the author of Hebrews.”
Basically, via the work and sacrifice of our Savior, our mediator, our advocate, our high priest, etc. coupled with the establishment of the church, the further revelation from God, and all of the other spiritual blessings in Christ — we would be given a whole new understanding of God and a whole new outlook concerning his eternal purpose for his creation. We would have more confidence, encouragement, and hope. We would be able to more boldly approach the throne of God.
Again, I do not deny any “direct operation” of God. Rather, I believe that he is active and can and does work in, for and around me. Especially, when I pray and meditate upon his word as I ought. I just don’t believe that God was unable to do all of that for his children before Pentecost. I don’t believe that God was limited in his ability to strengthen, comfort, guide, or convict his children before Pentecost.
I believe that the Holy Spirit could (and does) convict sinners just as much as he can Christians. I believe that whatever the Holy Spirit is willing and able to do for us today — he was able and willing to do for the saints of old.
I just have a slight problem with the idea that ever since Pentecost, Christians have a special personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the OT children of God did not have AND that BECAUSE OF said special indwelling, Christians ARE ENABLED/EMPOWERED to love and obey God more fully than were the OT saints.
I believe that the OT saints were commanded and JUST AS CAPABLE of loving God and their neighbors as any Christians are today. They were just as able to produce the fruit of the Spirit as we are.
Jay…it must be true if I believe it. 🙂 I don’t know very many people who read the passages you quoted that argue with them. If God Himself says you can’t do it so I will do it for you then what’s the problem…the problem is just a continuation of a ME theology. It’s all about what I DO to earn my way… I didn’t need God’s help then, I don’t need Him now.. I’ll even invent a new theology that says that the “perfect” has come which proves I don’t need him at all…. sad
If Pentecost did not mark a new era and a new covenant then there is no advantage of being a Christian over being a Jew. If the Jews had the indwelling Holy Spirit and could obey all the laws and be saved under the law then there is no difference in being a Jew or being a Christian. In fact, in that case Jesus did not need to die on the cross. He could have just said, “Keep up the good work”. Fortunately the Bible teaches that many things radically changed under grace and with the indwelling Holy Spirit promised for every believer.
Price, could you explain yourself ? You wrote:
“Jay…it must be true if I believe it. :)” — What must be true if you believe it?
You wrote:
“I don’t know very many people who read the passages you quoted that argue with them. If God Himself says you can’t do it so I will do it for you then what’s the problem…the problem is just a continuation of a ME theology.” — Concerning what did God ever say “you can’t do it so I will do it for you”? Can’t do what??
You also wrote:
“It’s all about what I DO to earn my way… I didn’t need God’s help then, I don’t need Him now.. I’ll even invent a new theology that says that the “perfect” has come which proves I don’t need him at all…. sad” — What are you talking about???
Skip, you wrote:
“God’s people in the OT were at a severe disadvantage to NT saints because they could not obey the command to love God.”
So then, you believe that God actually commanded the people in the OT to do something that they had no way of being able to do? Do you believe that God THOUGHT that they could when he commanded them to love him and then learned that they were not capable of doing so? Or, do you believe God knew that they were incapable of loving him but commanded them to do it anyway? Were Adam and Eve capable of loving God?
You also wrote:
“As the Bible also says, he gives us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26). Our OT brethren did not have this advantage.”
Do you believe that you got a “new heart” at the same time you received a “new spirit”? If so, do you now have two hearts? the one you were born with and an extra one when you became a Christian? Or, was your original heart taken away and you have a replacement heart now?
Why make the new heart figurative but the new spirit literal?
Hank, I believe we are on two very different wavelengths. Galatians clearly teaches that the law was only instituted to show that we are sinners and in order to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Other scriptures teach as much (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11). God did command the Jews to do things that in the flesh they could not do. Gal 3:24 explains this. No person by his own power can ever obey the Mosaic law. The scriptures proving this are overwhelming. The spirit is not now given to Christians to enable them to obey the laws of Moses. The ultimate purpose for the indwelling Holy Spirit is to help us to love God and to love others. The spirit “came upon” leaders and individuals in the OT but now “dwells within” saints under the new covenant. Ephesians teaches that we are marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. This means we enjoy a distinctively different relationship with the Holy Spirit than those under the law. Do you not believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is given to Christians at the point of baptism (Acts 2:38)? If we received it when baptized, what did our OT brethren do when they had no baptism? Did God change the game plan or not?
Hank… I really don’t know how to explain it to you..really…If you don’t understand that there was no mortal man that could keep the rules as given to us by God, (which means YES, He told us to do it and we couldn’t do it) and that as a result we needed a Savior, then I just leave you with your own opinions…
Price,
I understand that we need a Savior today just as much as they needed one throughout the OT.
My point is that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit started being given to God’s children from Pentecost on SO THAT God’s children would be enabled to be more faithful to and love God MORE than they were capable of throughout the OT.
I believe that the faithful throughout the OT were just as able to love God as you and I are today.
But, if you prefer to believe that you (we) have been given the Holy Spirit to enable us truly love God and obey him in ways that the saints of old were not able to, then that’s fine.
I just don’t believe that God would have commanded them to love him “with all of their heart” back then, if in fact they were not actually able to do so.
“He told us to do it and we couldn’t do it”
Price , they didn’t do it, but they could have- God does not command us to do, what is impossible for us to do.
“Price , they didn’t do it, but they could have- God does not command us to do, what is impossible for us to do.”
No doubt.
And neither did God give us the Holy Spirit so that we would be able to do what they could not. That would be cheating, lol.
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:3-4
Hank, the rules lead to sin (because we couldn’t be perfect and being guilty of any is guilty of all) and death (punishment).. So, God sent Jesus to remove our punishment if we walk according to the Spirit…
If anyone COULD have been perfect then surely there would have been at least one who was.. There was no mortal man that could do what God said to do. Thus, the need to be saved. God proved to US, that we couldn’t save ourselves… I good with that.
Price, read all the “but I say” in Matthew 5 and then tell me Jesus made it easier to obey.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: ———.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: —
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13.. How are we to put to death the deeds of the body? By our own will and self-discipline? Paul says it is by the Spirit that we are able to overcome.. Call it cheating if you want but I’ll take all the help I can get !!
Price,
Are you thinking I’m asserting that we can save ourselves without the sacrifice of Jesus? I am not. Nor am I claiming that men (then or now) are able to live an accountable life without sin.
Throughout time, in order to be saved/remain saved, sinners are required to render faithful obedience to God. Who will argue that? Do you believe that sinners are saved without any responsibility to trust and obey God? ALL of the saved have trusted and obeyed God. THAT is what I am talking about. And to be considered faithful, God has never required sinless perfection. God has never required sinless perfection from those who would be saved. Only faithful obedience.
Now, all I am saying here is this: Men were JUST as able to faithfully trust and obey God throughout the entire OT as they are now. From Adam and Eve on. They were JUST as capable of loving God and their neighbors then as we are now.
All I have been arguing for is this — God did not start indwelling sinners with the Holy Spirit SO THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO love God more than they could in the OT.
Now, that does not mean I deny the need for a Savior. Neither does it mean that I believe we can live without sin. Stop accusing me of that.
All it means is that I believe that sinners were just as able to trust and obey God 5000 years ago as we are today. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit was given to indwell men starting at Pentecost IN ORDER TO enable us to start being capable of “truly obeying the Greatest Commandment” (as Jay has implied).
No, I believe that God’s children were just as capable of Loving God in the OT as we are today. That’s all.
If the our OT brethren could obey and love God just as easily as we can today then there was no need for a savior. I believe that Abraham, Moses, and others were saved. Heck, even Enoch went straight to heaven. So why have Jesus come, be crucified, give us a new covenant, give us the indwelling Holy Spirit… if the playing field has not changed? Something different happened after Pentecost that no one in the OT had access to. If some don’t see the distinction then I don’t know how to make it more plain. Now if we are still living under the law in the Church today then I can understand why someone sees no difference between the saints in the OT and in the NT. How tragic to miss out on all that God has promised for us.
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Skip,
Do you not believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is given to Christians at the point of baptism (Acts 2:38)?
I believe that at baptism, the gift f the Holy Spirit is given (Acts 2:38).
Skip, do you believe that we are given a new heart at the same time as we are given the new spirit? When do we get the new heart?
“And I will give you a new heart, AND a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I am a little confused by your question. I have previously said I believe we receive the indwelling HS at Baptism as Peter promised in Acts 2:38. I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is the same as the indwelling Holy Spirit. The gift is the indwelling. This is also reiterated in II Corinthians 1:22 where it says “He put his spirit in our hearts”.
Skip,
God promised a new heart AND a new spirit. When do/did we get the new heart? At the same time we got the new spirit? Or a different time?
I am not sure of your purpose for the question. Or whether parsing this serves a real practical purpose. When a person repents, believes, and is saved God has worked in the heart to change it so that a person can turn to Christ in humility and receive His Holy Spirit. I am not sure splitting hairs over the exact timing of the sequence is necessary. Will it change your salvation? This process isn’t a recipe or a formula to follow humanistically. Let God do his work on us and let us be thankful he does.
Laymond, in Mat 5 Jesus actually was paving the way to make it easier to obey. In the OT the Jews viewed external adherence as sufficient. The Jews in Jesus day believed the same. Jesus now teaches that you must also change the heart. Why would this be easier? Because when the inside of a person changes, the behavior changes. Real Christians are changed from the inside out and thus obey because they love God and want to please God. Jesus did not raise the bar in Mat 5. He merely strikes at the root of the problem. When our heart changes, our life changes. Since many members of modern churches simply go through the motions I can understand how Mat 5 might appear to be a higher challenge but it really isn’t. Jesus is beginning heart surgery.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Skip, which one do you think is easier for man to bring himself to do 38, or 39 ? . I know what Jesus was saying, but that does not mean that , dealing out of love, is easier than getting even.
Honestly, the Holy Spirit has changed my heart so much over the years that I am not tempted to to seek any revenge or to resent people who make mistakes towards me. I know that God is sovereign and he allows challenging people to be in my life to help me to grow. Love in my case is much easier and more attractive than getting even. People have shown me much grace in the Church. I am no longer a vengeful person. I may have other issues but Mat 5:38,39 is not one of them.