This is from Royce Ogle, a long-time reader and frequent commenter here — not to mention an accomplished blogger at Grace Digest.
Royce writes,
I learned this morning that once again a loving brother in Christ has lumped yours truly in with other Apostates. The New Mexico preacher/elder Al Maxey emails his publication “Reflections” to hundreds of people each week. His studies and articles are well researched and written. Bro’ Al is one of those damned “change agents” who is speaking truth to our beloved church of Christ people and a few of them are not happy.
One of those people who are less than pleased with Al Maxey is a preacher from Alabama, one Caroll Ray Sutton, who has been the preacher at a small church of Christ for about 50 years. He publishes a paper titled “The Instructor”. In the Feb 2013 issue Mr Sutton has this to say:
“When apostates (and other false teachers) like Edward Fudge, Al Maxey, Max Lucado, Leroy Garrett, Rubel Shelly, Randy Harris, Royce Ogle, Jay Guin, Lynn Anderson, etc. contend that there is no pattern in the New Testament for us to follow in order to please God and thus be saved eternally, I am made to wonder how any honest, truth-seeking person would pay any attention to what they have to say” [p. 2].
Well, as Royce said, it’s an honor to be lumped in with such a group of men. I mean, these men are spiritual heroes! I’m just proud to be on the list.
By the way, it’s a bit unfair to characterize my teaching as “there is no pattern to follow in order to please God.” There is indeed — it’s just not the traditional pattern of how to conduct an assembly. The pattern is Jesus.
(Phi 3:14-17 NAS) 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. 17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
I would guess that this preacher has never visited any of the websites, he is just repeating something he has heard (gossip). If he had visited a site he must not have decided to leave a comment, to help guide others into the right path (would rather gossip). Maybe someone should contact him to see if he believes in his abilities (as The Instructor) enough, to identify the correct path in a debate online with one of those that he has dammed.
There are plenty more people like him out there. Some just haven’t yet gotten Internet access or electricity. I could add a whole host of names to the list of “apostates. ” I bet if he were to read the blog of Rachel Held Evans and listen to a few fine cofC women preaching from the pulpits in Manhattan and Brookline, Massachusetts, he would really have a stroke.
“women preaching from the pulpits of the CoC ” It is a good thing Paul didn’t live to see such a thing, talk about a stroke, it would be “the big one Elizabeth” as Fred would say.
“Well, as Royce said, it’s an honor to be lumped in with such a group of men. I mean, these men are spiritual heroes! I’m just proud to be on the list.”
“spiritual heroes” I don’t really know what that means, but I do know that I will never be lumped into that group, I only have two “Spiritual Heroes” at the present time and they are the original Spirit I call God, and his son Jesus, who God raised from death to a spiritual life, to occupy a throne next to his own. Now they are my spiritual heroes first God Almighty, second God’s son and my Lord Jesus Christ, the two beings I want most to b like. I know I will never be like God, but Jesus said I could be like him, and that is good enough for me. My “spiritual heroes” list is not very long, but that too is good enough for me.
Jay if these men are as you say “spiritual heroes” and you are on the same list aren’t you claiming that same status? And proud to say so.
In this world there will always be trouble, there will always be the poor, and there is Laymond! Always constant, always straightening everyone out, with the persistence of a migrane, it’s Laymond against the known world it seems..
I wish you well Laymond. I am fairly sure God uses you to develop patience in others.
Your “hero”,
Royce
It’s not just iron that sharpens iron. Our brother Laymond is the carborundum of the Kingdom…. 😉
Royce, our brother “The Instructor” (a rather large title, methinks) reminds me of the old saying, “I would rather be hated for whom I love than to be loved for whom I hate.”
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Well done Jay, Royce… Happy, Happy, Happy…
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Who is the “spiritual hero” here, The braggart, or the humble ?
Your “hero”,
Royce
Not exactly my “spiritual hero” Royce but you do deserve credit for finding obscure papers with your name mentioned. Just ask yourself this question, would you have bothered to put this person’s writings on the “net” if your name had not been mentioned along side your “spiritual heroes” . Forgive me if I doubt that you or Jay would have bothered to mention this preacher’s work, (one I can not find anything on at all.) if not for the “shout out”. But you are on the right track, self promotion. How do you think your “spiritual heroes” got to where they are.
Your Friendly Apostate
Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), ‘a defection or revolt’, from ἀπό, apo, ‘away, apart’, στάσις, stasis, ‘stand, ‘standing’) is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person’s former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.
Keep on grinding ’em, Laymond.
You provide us with yet another example of the reality that when a man is attacked by certain folks, that attack in and of itself is seen as an indication of that man’s good character and the validity of his views.
Charles, I doubt that God will ask you to vouch for my character, at least I hope not.
If you try to please everyone you will either wind up driven to drink or you will have “watered down” the message to the point it is unrecognizable.
I think Paul was more open to ideas that most would like to admit. I think he knew the cultures very well. I don’t think he intended his letters to be absolute law.
I hardly ever recommend anyone go visit a specific Church of Christ unless I visit it myself. It is sad to feel that you never know what to expect or how you will be treated.
There are many more divisions within that body as there are with a Baptist Church.
Bob
Mark is right about Paul’s objection to women speaking (disrupting) the assembly.
He was writing to one church about a specific problem and he definitely was not
against female participation. The Way would have withered if not for the righteous
women who endured the martyrdom of husbands and sons for the Faith.
Churches that rely on one verse to silence women apply sloppy or lazy reasoning in
making it a command. The progressive writers named look beyond the text to find the
reasons behind inflammatory dialogue. One in particular not named explores why
Paul said what he did and the pagan cultural influence in Corinth. I hesitate to ID
the scholar due to efforts to marginalize sin on Jay’s forum currently.
The progressive tide is lately meeting backlash in some mega churches. Vows by steamrolling “ministers” are broken unilaterally to affect change causing members
to regret signing on to new courses in direction. Putting modernism ahead of service
to Christ leads some to deception in order to accomplish their goals.
David, that inflammatory statement would be all the better for specifics, much less proofs. Perhaps testimony from someone involved. What vows have been broken, what steamrolling worthy-of-air-quotes ministers are you talking about, and who is expressing regret? Some actual information might be interesting and worthy is discussion, as opposed to this sort of generic sneering.
Charles, the inflammatory statement “As in all the congregations of the saints, women
should remain silent in the churches.” 1 Cor 14:33
Was this an absolute command for all time? Or was Paul’s teachings influenced by
pagan Greek ceremonies practiced among the women Paul was trying to bring to Christ? Were they disrupting the gospel message? Some scholars have traced Paul’s
circumstance in light of studies of the culture of those days.
Recently I heard of ministers/elders who had expressly told charter members that
IM would not be introduced and later instituted it. Some were happy but some felt
they had been lied to. The backlash was reported as serious. Is this happening across
the US? Is there an excuse to make a vow and when that vow appears to be non-
progressive enough to please newcomers, go back on your word?
I hope that clarifies my post.
David,
Personally, rather than applying this to all women, I like to pick the women to whose attention I bring this verse.
Same with many other verses regarding women at home. It does not go over too well sometimes. LOL
For starters I would not make a vow that “we will never xxxxx.” That is the fastest way to wind up doing it. All that did was keep some donations flowing for a bit longer and turn some once-honorable people into politicians. All for a donation.
Mark, exactly. Without transparency the image clouds and sides are taken.