I dunno. I’m not that happy with my last post. I mean, it’s right enough, I think, but not as pointed as I meant to be.
I blame the drugs and slow recovery from mostly deadness. (I’m better, but it’s so…0…o slo…o…ow!)
Let me try to shape this into some simple takeaways.
1. The point of the scriptures is to reveal God. (We did a series on that not long ago.)
2. One reason God is anxious to reveal himself to us, through scriptures but also through Jesus and the ongoing work of the Spirit, as well the Creation in which we live, is because he has called and elected us to become like him.
3. Sin happens when we fail to live up to this standard.
4. Therefore, the commands we’re accountable for as Christians are essentially “Love God” and “Love your neighbor” — both filtered through the work and mission and character of Jesus. That’s because Jesus is the very image of God, and because he modeled for us love for God and love for neighbors, they become our calling.
5. There are no positive commands. Life is not a test. God did not save us only to ask us trick questions hidden in the silences. In fact, God has plainly tried hard to make this pretty simple. We just refuse to believe it.
6. The Lord’s Supper, for example, is not a command to be obeyed on penalty of damnation but a gift we’ve been given and an opportunity to form ourselves into the image of Christ. It’s a means of forming our communities into the image of Christ as well. It’s not a test.
Go to a construction site and offer the men electric saws and drills to replace their old hand saws and hand drills. They won’t need a command to gladly use the better tools — but that’s because they know why they’re there and what they’re supposed to accomplish — and therefore they understand why the better tools are better.
Just so, the Lord’s Supper is a better tool for doing Christianity, because it’s a powerful vehicle for teaching the character of Jesus and of God, and it’s a great opportunity to yield to the Spirit’s work reshaping us to be like Jesus and God. It’s a power tool for spiritual formation, and those of us who understand our purpose should be thrilled to use it that way.
But when we see the Lord’s Supper as a mere command, a test of faith, a mark of a true Christian, then we destroy it as a tool of spiritual formation, because we are trying to do the wrong thing with it. It’s like using a power drill to hammer nails. Pretty dumb, really. And I’m sure that’s how we look to God many Sundays.
7. When we remove the positiveness from a practice such as the Lord’s Supper, we find freedom to be creative and imaginative in letting it shape us. (God is a creative being; to be like God is to be creative.)
We might use leavened bread sometimes to remind us of the death and sacrifice of Jesus — a death and sacrifice we are each called to emulate. We might use unleavened bread sometimes to remind us of the resurrection of Jesus and the new life found in him — a new life we possess and are to celebrate.
We might take it as part of a seder around Easter, to learn the Jewish roots of the ritual. We might eat it with a common meal as part of a small group or zone fellowship. We might spread tables out in the auditorium. We might even sing during communion.
We might focus the entire assembly on the communion, rather than the sermon. The sermon might point toward each element or the background or purposes Jesus himself gives us.
We might honor the “blood of the covenant” by remembering Exodus 24 and meditating on how the Last Supper parallels the events of Exodus 24 and how our sharing in that same event touches and affects us.
We might honor the “new covenant in my blood” by deeply imbibing Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 and the (true) story that Jesus was referring to when he shared the meal with his disciples.
We might wash feet. Maybe we invite the residents of a homeless shelter to join us for a Love Feast in honor of Jesus.
You see, when we remove the Lord’s Supper from the realm of positive law, it ceases to be a test and so we are freed to let ourselves be shaped by the countless, powerful lessons that inhere within it. And we don’t have to be afraid that a wrathful deity is going to damn us for getting it wrong. That’s paganism, not Christianity.
Indeed, I think we’re far more likely to disappoint God the way we routinely handle communion — in so much fear of error that we don’t permit ourselves the freedom to get it right.
8. Of course, the same shift in thinking is necessary when it comes to a cappella singing and the assembly in general. It’s not a test of how well we can discern the rules and please a testy, unwilling god by doing his arbitrary will for a week’s worth of numen. It’s just worship from the heart because we know God so well that worship is an irresistible impulse.
And that moots any concerns about the right posture in church or what we should wear to be in the presence of God — because we’re always in the presence of God. We have no concerns about whether the auditorium is holy or unholy because we worship a holy God who is everywhere — and he wants holy people, not holy bricks and mortar.
10. And this means that the most important study is the character and personality of God and Jesus. If we’re to become like them, we need to meet them and learn about them, not as cruel proctors looking to fail us on a true-false test but as Deity that literally died to save us. I mean, we just refuse to believe we’re loved that much.
- Oh! to be like Thee, blessed Redeemer,
This is my constant longing and prayer;
Gladly I’ll forfeit all of earth’s treasures,
Jesus, Thy perfect likeness to wear.- Refrain:
Oh! to be like Thee, oh! to be like Thee,
Blessed Redeemer, pure as Thou art;
Come in Thy sweetness, come in Thy fullness;
Stamp Thine own image deep on my heart.
- Refrain:
- Oh! to be like Thee, full of compassion,
Loving, forgiving, tender and kind,
Helping the helpless, cheering the fainting,
Seeking the wand’ring sinner to find. - Oh! to be like Thee, lowly in spirit,
Holy and harmless, patient and brave;
Meekly enduring cruel reproaches,
Willing to suffer, others to save. - Oh! to be like Thee, Lord, I am coming,
Now to receive th’ anointing divine;
All that I am and have I am bringing,
Lord, from this moment all shall be Thine. - Oh! to be like Thee, while I am pleading,
Pour out Thy Spirit, fill with Thy love,
Make me a temple meet for Thy dwelling,
Fit me for life and Heaven above.
Here’s a song we’ve sung for a century or more that teaches a lesson rarely heard from our pulpits. It’s often been said that our hymnody provides much better theology than our preaching.
Your first “conclusions” post wasn’t pointed enough? When you spoke of Church of Christ worship services being a “museum” of bad theology?
Yet, this post fleshes out some of the things you said earlier in a very helpful way. The big question that remains is, “How do we get there from here without doing harm to the body of Christ we are attempting to deliver from its own shallow conception of what it means to love God?”
Perhaps at the time of offering communion to the congregation, the following could be said:
THE Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thanksgiving.
THE Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Drink this in remembrance that Christ’s Blood was shed for thee, and be thankful.
BCP 1662.
Having been told this while being handed the bread and offered the chalice gives it a bit more meaning.
jay
in stead of dropping back a 100 years for a song….
why not go forward…
this song has been bringing me to tears for at least three years…i do love young people
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hosana+lyrics&FORM=VIRE7#view=detail&mid=A3D35EF7444F7B06D3CDA3D35EF7444F7B06D3CD
blessings
rich
oops wrong link above
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hosana+lyrics&FORM=VIRE7#view=detail&mid=EC705F8A9EB0667FCE6AEC705F8A9EB0667FCE6A
compare and contrast : might find the RUB
THE SONGS 🙂
Go to a construction site and offer the men electric saws and drills to replace their old hand saws and hand drills. They won’t need a command to gladly use the better tools — but that’s because they know why they’re there and what they’re supposed to accomplish — and therefore they understand why the better tools are better.
There is also reasons why old handmade items are treasured so. Lots of love went into them that new modern versions do not have.
U BETA JOHN
although love is an intrinsic characteristic.
a compared to what on a personal level that finds an expressed foothold in cultured situatedness
how you / I am effected by the old is more about working with the legacy that has been left to us(our memories)
like my mom dragging me off to church Sunday morning for Sunday school.and then listing to amazing grace and being told not to fidget around so much. these are wonderful and the old songs trigger those memories along with the love that was being expressed by my mom doing the lords work…
although that was then and not to day.
to day i have a world of information.
my kids have this
when i was a kid not even black and white tv
any way
change is good
i could go back to the church i was brought up in and I BET YA THE ONLY CHANGE is the paint on the wall “another shade of GRAY”
OH WELL
BLESSINGS
Rich,
Same with us, somethings change slowly like our hair: slowly and simply changing to another shade of gray.
Change slowly, but still do change and that is what we are seeing happening in the COC today..
How I admire the way the younger folks are seeing God which is so different from the God we were taught to fear so. No wonder we loved to sing as the songs gave us hope and a loving God.
So many left the church out of feeling they had no chance of obtaining heaven so why try. I look forward to seeing them in heaven and hearing of their surprise at being there. ( And seeing me there!!!!)
SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD
BLESSINGS AND THANKS JOHN
rich
But when the church told them that everything they did was wrong and that they were going to hell, what else could they do? Why be miserable trying to obtain something that you can’t get?
Why can we not acknowledge love in a previous generation without denigrating in the present generation? I suspect that loving Jesus and the church did not end with Fanny Crosby…
Because I have heard too many that most of us observers would of thought they were bound for heaven, while in a sick and dying state being so afraid that they were not good enough and not as sinless as they should of been. Might of missed something or misinterpreted something and been wrong. Even had some in hospitals and on death beds at home wanting to be rebaptized to be cleansed in case it just might help them gain heaven instead of burning in hellfire for eternity, screaming in terrible pain.
Some even went so far as hoping that wouldn’t see their loved ones in hell suffering so, as that would be an added pain.
Yes, believing in a grace, mercy granting God is a change.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
John, maybe they read revelation, and figure they have a right to worry. What do you think when you read this revelation ?
Mark, Mark, Mark … nothing is better established than the fact that the Churches of Christ may not use the Book of Common Prayer, a man made book, except, of course, for weddings. Weddings are different.
Jerry,
I actually rewrote the first conclusions post after the second — and cleaned up the lack of point. It needed it. I forgot to fix the second one.
One of the huge difficulties in rescuing the body of Christ from its errors is finding a platform from which to make the case. I mean, the Gospel Advocate isn’t about to publish my series of articles, even if I made them much less pointed. (I’ve tried. Really. Not naive but figured I shouldn’t presume. Had some nice conversations with folks in Nashville several years ago.)
Part of the answer is the Internet and the resulting influence bloggers and e-zines can have outside their “element” within the Restoration Movement. Part is word of mouth. One man reads and is persuaded, he teaches a small group, someone listens and teaches a class …
It’s like, you know, leaven. 🙂
And it’s entirely outside of our control. It’s a Spirit-thing. Put the word out the best you can, say a prayer, and figure God will keep the leaven working, if he so wills.
How do we prevent harm? I’m not sure. I mean, Jesus and the apostles upset more than one household. Families were divided. Parents disowned children.
(Luk 12:52-53 ESV) 52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
This is not because the good news is destructive but because Satan resists the good news with everything he has, including encouraging parents to withhold love and approval from their own children. Including encouraging church members to split a church to preserve a graceless gospel. Including moving Christians to slander their leaders rather than see the church move away from a false gospel.
Should we be kind, gentle, and loving in preaching the truth? Absolutely. Should we decline to preach the truth for the sake of peace? I don’t see an argument to be made for that one.
(2Ti 2:24-26 ESV) 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Does that answer your question?
laymond,
I agree we will be judged by what is written in that book. I also believe we can pray for forgiveness and our sins will be erased and we’ll be forgiven.
We all have a big book, but many like me have a lot of erasing that has been done and a lot of worn pages from all the hard erasing by God so our sins have been erased and only the good things are written in that book. That being the case grace and mercy will cover anything I have missed and I ask God to give me that daily.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
John if all we do is depend on our bad deeds being erased, we might be left with an empty book, we might not be found written in the book at all.
So, Laymond, where is the limit of God’s forgiveness?
Careful how you answer … unless you think you know more about God than any of the rest of us!
Or, all that is left in our book is our good deeds. Each person knows if they have done any good deeds or not.
Depends on how we look at Gods judgment, positively or negatively and for most of my life and many others in the church of Christ we have looked at it negatively. Many are changing to seeing Gods judgment positively and I am so glad I have lived to see it.
What a difference it makes in our every day living and how we look forward to standing before God.
One must read carefully. While the works of men are recorded in the book of life, Paul explains to us in 2 Corinthians just which works survive the believer into eternity. And John clearly says that those whose names were not found in the book were destroyed… nothing said there about destroying those whose performance review was less than satisfactory. You cannot work your way into the book, nor keep your listing by making timely installment payments–for the book belongs to the Savior. That’s why it is called the book of life. Some folks seem so anxious to see lesser folk than themselves tossed into the fire that they skim the details.
I am reminded of my high school yearbook. The seniors’ photos were posted along with a list of their accomplishments. Some people had a long list of involvements and successes. Some people had almost nothing noted. But we were all graduates.
“One of the huge difficulties in rescuing the body of Christ from its errors is finding a platform from which to make the case. I mean, the Gospel Advocate isn’t about to publish my series of articles, even if I made them much less pointed. (I’ve tried. Really. Not naive but figured I shouldn’t presume. Had some nice conversations with folks in Nashville several years ago.)”
Jay, I’ve said it dozens of times to just as many people: PUBLISH YOUR BOOKS! They’ll reach a much broader audience than in the electronic forms they’re in now. There’s you’re bigger platform!
ZBZ wrote,
“PUBLISH YOUR BOOKS!”
I tried the publishing route 20 years ago with HSRG and then later on with most of the other books. (I got HSRG published, actually). I was unknown and the publishers loved my topics, my writing, but needed me to be better known in CoC circles. I’m now pretty well known, and feel absolutely no desire to publish. Maybe because the experience was so frustrating. Maybe because I’ve given away more copies through OIJ than I could have sold (not provable, but I’m pretty sure that’s right). Or maybe it’s not what God wants me to do. (Or I could just be tired and not looking for a new project). Or maybe the time isn’t right. I dunno.
You’d think if publishing really made sense, by now I’d have been contacted by a publisher. They love guys with a “platform” — an established audience. I have one.
This is always a challenge for writers. The laborer is worthy of his hire, after all, and some religious writers make a boatload of money. OTOH, if the idea is to get the message out, there has never been a better time in history for a message to spread around the world. I have had blog posts travel entirely around the world and get back to within 90 miles of my home.
David asked; “So, Laymond, where is the limit of God’s forgiveness?”
David I certainly hope you are not suggesting that it has no limits. Did the whole of mankind receive forgiveness for sins when Jesus was sacrificed for mankind’s sins ? some say yes that is what happened. (Universal salvation.) Some people laugh at me when I say God gave us a way to be saved, or a way to work toward salvation. And we will be judged on what we do. But that is exactly what the bible says,( as I recall people laughed at Noah, when God told him how to save himself and his family) every book in the new testament tells us exactly that. You ask “where is the limit of God’s forgiveness” well I believe we have seen that limit reached when his son died on the cross for our sins. The limit of Gods forgiveness of sins was reached when he saw his only begotten son’s blood spilled, poured down from that rugged cross and soaked up by the earth. I believe that limit was more than generous, and was actually enough for even God to endure, and I don’t believe he asks to much when he asks a little of us in return, obedience to Jesus/god’s word in flesh, is not an impossible request if we truly love God. I don’t believe loving God as our original parent, and loving our fellow man as a brother or sister, is to much to ask. we are asked to “love”
and let everything flow from that love. I don’t think that is to much.
I have no idea if there is a limit to God’s forgiveness or not. There is no evidence of such a limit in the Text. And you reveal a lot with you use the phrase “work toward salvation.”
There is no way for us to achieve salvation by working for it, at least from what I read in the Text.
I do agree that Jesus asks us to “love one another” the way he loved us (John 13 and John 15). But that is also a response to our salvation, not a pre-condition to our salvation.
Paul properly points out that our intent should not be to continue sinning, so that we can demonstrate how much God is willing to forgive. But at the same time, each of us fails, so completely to love the way Jesus loved, that there is no end to what God forgives us of.
So, Laymond, my point is that you do not know the limits of God’s forgiveness, and I would counsel you against suggesting that you do.
According to the Text, God judges the heart and forgives our failures. Neither you nor I are capable of judging another’s heart.
I am confident of my salvation, not because of how good I am, but because of how loving, gracious and forgiving God is.
continuous , intentional sin, is the limit of God’s forgiveness. There are many people in prison because they either didn’t know or thought they would get away with it, whatever it is, I am afraid there are many who will ask, why did you not forgive me, and his answer will be “Why should I” As for me I will continue to do the best I can, and leave judgment to God.
I’m sure glad that God’s forgiveness is not nearly so limited as Laymond’s perception of it is. It reached all the way to people like me who didn’t even ask for it.
Laymond wrote,
“continuous , intentional sin, is the limit of God’s forgiveness.”
Sounds pretty much right to me.
(Heb 10:26-31 ESV) 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I don’t think the Hebrews author was speaking in terms of impossible hypotheticals. He was truly concerned that his readers not find themselves in this dreadful place. In fact, the real danger of rebellion against God is a major theme that recurs throughout Hebrews.
Continuous, intentional sin, that is right, and quotes Hebrews gods limits. This also also teaches the other side of the coin which is if a person is not guilty of either of these two, God is forgiving of those of us that do not do either of these two but still sin and will continue to get forgiveness, grace and mercy and a home in heaven.
Jay, if I could only pick two books of the new testament to read, one of them would absolutely be Hebrews.
It’s amazing many many years of continual, intentional sin can be forgiven by God in a short moment, remembering the example of the prodigal son. I really have never heard anyone discuss, was he forgiven when he made the commitment to return to the father, or did that take place after he arrived at home? What would have been the outcome if he had died of starvation before he reached home? As we see this story as a representation of a child of God returning, timing seems to a little out of expected order. Comparing the Spiritual relationship with this story, why did not the father have a knowledge of the son’s commitment to return, and announce it prior to his arrival to the brother and others? It appears that the father’s knowledge of the commitment was by his sight.
Is “continuous, intentional sin” the same as rebellion? Am I to understand that the fellow who has “had a bad temper” all his life and excuses it as part of his makeup is beyond God’s forgiveness? Or his gossipy brother? Or his gluttonous cousin? Or his covetous uncle? (Covetousness is considered a virtue among Americans; it drives a big chunk of our economy.) Does refusing to believe God will meet our needs and “taking thought for the morrow” all our lives place us beyond God’s forgiveness?
When I read of the “rebellion in the desert”, it refers to the singular sin of unbelief by Israel. They were not worshipping idols or taking foreign wives or eating bacon-wrapped shrimp at every meal. In fact, they didn’t DO much of anything except to say, “We are afraid. We can’t go.” Was THIS the “continuous intentionl sin” we are talking about on the thread? That one gets pretty close to home, if you ask me.
Can the believer repudiate his faith in Jesus Christ and thus place himself beyond forgiveness? Yes, I believe so. But this is a check-valve situation; one cannot pass that point and ever return. But Larry’s post reminds me that a reasonable outsider’s observation of the prodigal’s lifestyle might have concluded he was seeing a life of “continuous, intentional sin”– but the Father never cast the boy out.
Charles asked,
I can’t speak for Laymond, but I think that is unquestionably the correct interpretation of Hebrews.
Charles,
In your post should I understand that you believe that the father never considered his son as rebellious or removed from the status of his son?
The message here said by the father seems to me that the son was totally disconnected from the family and all relatives and we are sure that he was not in line for another inheritance. Of course, I also believe that the example was given to display God’s determination of one who abandoned all of his relationship with Christ and God. How do you see dead?
(Luke 15:24 KJV) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(Luke 15:24 NIV) For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
(Luke 15:24 NRSV) for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
Larry, your comparison of continual, intentional sin, to the prodigal son. falls short, did the prodigal son come home expecting to get another bite at the apple? When we compare earthly things to heavenly things there is something that just don’t fit. Even when Jesus made these comparisons he knew they were not exact , he said it would be liken to. in other words it was as close as he could get using words that we would understand. Yes the father still loved his son and was glad he had come home. And yes God still loves sinners/rebels and wish they would come home, some do, and some don’t but those who do have not received their reward as of yet, if they were to die before they return they will receive a reward outside the kingdom. I don’t believe their sins will be forgiven, they have reached the limits of God’s forgiveness.
The Text reports that God forgives our sin and remembers it no more. That suggests that every time we sin, it’s as if God is forgiving us for the first time.
Repetitious sin is not the same as continual, intentional sin. Intentional sin carries the connotation of a rejection of God’s grace.
I believe the limit of God’s forgiveness is defined by my willingness to accept it and rely on it as the driving force of my life.
How was the prodigal’s behavior not continual and intentional and sinful? His behavior did not result in the state of being beyond repentance which Hebrews describes. As to the prodigal being “entirely disconnected” from his father, Laymond and I are clearly reading entirely different parables.
David,
I think you’re pretty much right. When we rebel against God and that rebellion essentially undoes our repentance, we’re in deep, deep trouble.
It’s not really possible for a human to judge when someone has crossed that line. I think that’s God’s call exclusively. But we can certainly tell when someone is in trouble with sin some of the time. And when we see brothers on the road toward rebellion, rather than cutting them off, it’s time to intervene to help the brother overcome sin.
Amen
The rabbis still tech that it is never too late to repent and return to G-d.
As for the prodigal son, I don’t think anyone has ever wanted to take on the topic of the other brother. Some say he represents Israel, always there with G-d, and some think he represents the good people. He gets left out of the story or accused of arrogance, but for the decent acting, hard working people who ask for and get very little, he becomes their patron saint.
Mark,
I am really surprised, I have heard many lessons based upon the elder brother and being applied to the attitude of Christians or as some would say church members. In those illustrations the elder brother actually sank as low or was as far off base as the younger brother was in his initial rebellion to the father. He was building his rewards by his works or devotion.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in regards to the prodigal son, so he relates the story to them as well as those the Pharisees reject. The brother at home is the Pharisee (or anyone in the superior position), The Father is the Father, and the son is anyone who has left God (which is possibly the common Jews, even the gentiles). The Father is always there, the door always open, but the one who has left has to come back and be reconciled. This is important in that the decision is in the hands of the lost and that the Father isn’t hunting down the son and dragging him back by the hair. It has to be a willing action. Although it does ring true of all people who go to sin (which is all people) it focuses on the one who leaves the Father and has basically abused the gifts the Father initially gave him. Once in the world he is subject to the world and in following his own temporary desires. The son has an aha moment and comes back, but many do not because they find pleasure in the world. The other son in the mean time looks down on the returning weak brother and isn’t at all concerned about his brother, but himself.
Ralph,
Thanks for the link. That Orthodox blog is now in my RSS feed.
I think you will enjoy much of what Fr. Stephen writes.
He does have one hobby horse, which is a regular diatribe against “modern” thinking. Not sure what he thinks about post-modern thinking. In any case, he regularly labels this or that as “modern,” and thus of no real value. It is more than a straw man, but sometimes it seems to function as a straw man within his arguments.