Some of the readers have brought up the question of Israel’s final fate. I should have thought to cover the question, and am attempting to correct that oversight now.
In Romans 9 – 11, Paul prays for and certainly hopes for a massive return of the Jews to the Kingdom, and there’s an argument that his prayer will be fulfilled, found largely in Romans 11:26.
(Rom 11:25-27 ESV) 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Even the greatest of the scholars disagree as to the meaning of v.26. N. T. Wright concludes that there is no promise that the Jews will ultimately accept Jesus, arguing that Paul shifts the meaning of “Israel” from v. 25 to v. 26, so that he is saying that ethnic Israel was hardened in v. 25 but that the newly reconstituted Israel — the church — will be saved, in v. 26.
In support of Wright’s view is the fact that v. 27 seems to refer to Jeremiah 31:31, which is frequently mentioned in the New Testament as describing the church (see Hebrews 8 especially).
But Old Testament scholar John Walton disagrees in Covenant: God’s Purpose, God’s Plan
Wright considers the reference to Israel in verse twenty-six a redefinition, identifying the Israel of the prophecy as God’s newly defined elect, believers of all nations. He then translates, “That is how God is saving ‘all Israel.’”
Wright’s main argument is with those who contend that the ultimate salvation of Israel is taking place independent of the new definition of the people of God, i.e., that their salvation is still on the basis of ancestral privilege. While I agree with his rejecting that view, there is still the option of interpreting the passage as an expectation that there will be a massive acceptance of the new terms of the covenant and the new definition of the people of God by the Jews. This is expressed in the analysis of Hans LaRondelle.
It is God’s intention to bring natural Israel back to Himself by means of the Church of Christ. This way of saving many Jews from ethnic Israel for Christ is part of the marvelous “mystery” of God.
I have no doubt that Paul has promoted a redefinition of the people of God, but I am less convinced that he has redirected the eschatological promises made to Israel, to the newly-elect, by a reinterpretation of the prophecies. Consistency suggests that Romans 9–11 must be understood as promulgating the eventual response of ethnic Israel. On the one hand, there is no reason to reject the idea that there are some senses in which the newly elect become heirs to a spiritualized version of some of the promises. But on the other hand the logic of the theory I am proposing suggests that ethnic Israel may still claim the benefits of their covenant.
Walton, John H. (2010-06-29). Covenant: God’s Purpose, God’s Plan (Kindle Locations 1761-1775). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
Walton makes an elaborate argument from the Old Testament prophecies, suggesting that the Jews will ultimately come to faith and salvation. However, even Walton does not equate the Jews coming to faith in Jesus with the Jews having a national homeland and winning literal, earthly wars.
What seems certain to me is that it’s not our job to force God’s hand and make the restoration of the Jews happen. That is, we’re under no obligation to restore Israel politically or militarily. After all, the First Century Jews made a colossal mistake in figuring that rebelling against Rome would help God bring about the Kingdom prophecies — and God did not need their help and had no interest in defeating Rome with the sword.
Hence, when we brandish our American swords to defeat the enemies of Israel for supposedly biblical reasons, I get this sick feeling that we’re on the side of the Zealots and Phinehas, rather than the Christians and Jesus.
The fact that Israel is an ally of the USA and provides important strategic benefits, is a fellow democracy, and originated after the Holocaust of WWII are important political questions, not biblical. I’m not a pacifist; I just object to using badly interpreted biblical prophecies as justifying military violence.
Worse yet is when these theories get combined with the 1,000-year reign and the desire to win the final war against Satan with Blackhawk helicopters. Nothing could be further from the heart of God. Whatever Armageddon proves to be, it won’t be the Christian church taking up arms to defeat God’s enemies with violence. That’s been tried, and it proved to place the warriors on the wrong side of God’s story.
(2Co 10:3-6 ESV) 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Paul tried the violent approach to pleasing God and found himself persecuting God’s church. Jesus himself redirected Paul’s energies away from the sword and toward the Spirit.
(Joh 18:36 ESV) 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
In short, if the Jews are indeed restored to the Kingdom, as Paul may well be saying in Rom 11:26, they will enter by faith in Jesus and by the movement of the hand of God, not the military might of the USA. We Americans are not the angelic army.
(2Ki 6:15-17 ESV) 15 When the servant of the man of God [Elisha] rose early in the morning and went out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was all around the city. And the servant said, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” 16 He said, “Do not be afraid, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.” So the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
I agree with your analysis Jay. Yet the creation of the modern state of Israel (1948?) is so remarkable that I suspect some part of how the future of how all this will enfold is hidden from our present view. Many biblical scholars confidently stated before 1948 that there would never again be a nation of Israel on this earth. I’m not aware of any other people who both maintained their distinct identity while a diaspora for so many centuries and then successfully regained their homeland and nation. It seems to be a unique event in human history. What it means for the future I don’t know but I’d be surprised if it means nothing. Yet there is no Christian justification that I can see for blindly following the will of the government of Israel and launching a preemptive war against Iran as their proxy. That seems to be what those who support Israel like automatons would have us do.
Gary,
I certainly agree with your insight as to the greatness and survival of the remnant of Israel while using wisdom to refrain from war. A recognition of providence, and it is a limited recognition indeed, is no reason to follow a nation, government or individual off a cliff. The prophetic spirit is one in which we can look around us and see clearly what is taking place, yet be determined to follow the Spirit of God into the unknown, rather than letting ourselves be led by a knee jerk patriotic pep rally. The Gospel of Thomas has Jesus saying, “Recognize what is in front of your face, and what is hidden will be revealed”. The saying was of common wisdom at that time, one in which we find the truth of God even today.
“Even the greatest of the scholars disagree”
Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.
(Seems to me the Lord said he would punish both the Jew, and the Gentile, and for the same reason.)
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(Why oh why, do we read the words of the bible, and yet we follow the words of “the wise”?)
My father-in-law used to say “it’s amazing how much light the bible can shine on a good commentary”.
Wright is fond of redefining Paul’s words. I find it unbelievable that a man removed from Paul by millennia can know Paul’s thoughts and intentions as he wrote. Taking the words of the Bible at face value the best we can may be the safest course, even when the result doesn’t fit our theological template.
Replacement theology is very bad theology that’s simply not biblical.
We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jewish people of Israel are the natural branches, Gentiles are the branches that are grafted in.
Romans 11:23-24 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
I have heard many quote the verses that “say that all Israel will be saved, as it is written”. As I understand the individuals promoting that message they relate this message to the complete nationality of Israel. In order for God to fulfill this as I believe the promoters are claiming, then all of the Israelites that were disobedient and were slain 3000 at Mt Sinai, 23000 which the ground opened up and swallowed, and every man and woman who had rebelled, all of the wicked kings and their wives, the northern tribes, all of the Priests who were not obedient, the very Jews that killed his son and never repented, the OT is filled with identities of men who were Israelite that God never accepted while they were alive yet were part of the whole nation. I don’t see how anyone could not understand that the promise was not to the disobedient, but to only those who were of the seed of Abraham. The seed spoken of was not his physical heritage, but of his faith heritage. Many of the nation claimed to be of Abraham who I believe Abraham would not have claimed as his offspring because of their lack of faith. The Israelites as a nation were promised a Messiah whom the nation rejected. Some of the Israelites accepted the Messiah ( a remnant will be saved) to which Gentiles were grafted into, and became one body. No Israelite will be saved today through any other means than accepting the Messiah and becoming a part of the one body the Messiah’s body.
Hi Larry,
Do you think it may be that you have overstated the position of even the most ardent dispensationalists (and I am not one of them)? Perhaps you could provide a source that holds the beliefs you have attributed to them?
Hesed,
Randall
Israel has won three miraculous wars keeping what belongs to the Jewish people. Israel was reborn in a day, the day after declaring independence on May 15, 1948 the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon attacked Israel. Though vastly outnumbered, Israel held their ground and conquered an additional 2500 miles of territory. In 1967 the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon mobilized over 260,000 troops against Israel and lost their war against Israel a nation that is about the size of New Jersey, in the Six Day war not a single Israeli plane was brought down. People can call it coincidence, God’s promises says there are no coincidences.
And we can’t forget what Jesus said after denouncing Israel’s doom “Therefore you will not see me until you say ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'”
The Romans did not attack the Jews(in A.D. 70) until August 11th(in which no major festival falls). So this verse cannot be a further reference to his appearing to them in judgment then. But is rather a glimmer of hope, a final recognition of who Jesus is-the promised messiah expressed beautifully by this Hallel quote.
Randall,
Do you understand the “all” not to be “all”? If a man was born within the linage of the Israelite Nation he is an Israelite just as anyone born in any nationality is a member of that nationality. Was not Paul a Jew? Yet he also claimed to be a Roman. Free born, not a slave.
Actually, the burden of proof is not mine, it is those who seem to think they can pick and chose which individuals of the Israelite Nation make up the “all”. Does not “all” include those who were not faithful, saying that another way does not “all” include the individuals who were evil in the Nation?
Randall, can you show us (or at least me) a formula which will allow the separation of the good and acceptable of Israel as the “all” and exclude those who were evil that were part of the nation from the “all” of Israel?
Grace,
You should read a little more history.
Courtesy of jewishvirtuallibrary.org
The victory came at a very high cost. In storming the Golan Heights, Israel suffered 115 dead-roughly the number of Americans killed during Operation Desert Storm. Altogether, Israel lost twice as many men — 777 dead and 2,586 wounded-in proportion to her total population as the U.S. lost in eight years of fighting in Vietnam.(23) Also, despite the incredible success of the air campaign, the Israeli Air Force lost 46 of its 200 fighters.(24) The death toll on the Arab side was 15,000 Egyptians, 2,500 Syrians, and 800 Jordanians.
God has never allowed these kinds of losses when he was involved in the battle. When God was involved there was no loss of life of the Israelites. God displays his abilities beyond human understanding.
Do you live in a country that is the size of New Jersey surrounded by enemies solely dedicated to wiping it off the map? No one even imagined Israel would be reborn as a nation, the odds in these wars were enormously against them, nothing like it has ever happened to another people group. There isn’t Scripture that says every miracle is the same. You can call Israel being reborn luck, I don’t believe in luck, I do believe the promises of God to be very true.
Hi Larry,
So I take it you can not find a source that believes what you have attributed to this unknown person or group. I do think the burden of proof you referred to does apply to the person that made the claim (that’s you) that this is what others believe.
Next, all does not mean every single one w/o exception. When Paul noted that the Jews had rejected Christ (and it broke his heart that that was the case) he did not mean every single Israelite w/o exception. We see that about 3000 Jewish men (I don’t think the women were counted but perhaps I’m, confused) were saved on Pentecost. Additionally other Jews came to faith thereafter, Paul himself being a prime example. However, the nation as a whole rejected Jesus as messiah, but not all as in every single one. I am of the opinion that the statement that all Israel will be saved is used in just the same way. It doesn’t have to mean every single Israelite w/o exception, but rather the nation/race as a whole. That’s the way I understand it and that is the way a number of others understand it as well. Hope this helps.
Hesed,
Randall
Larry, I see the mistake in my earlier comment, I was thinking of one thing while typing another. The instance I was thinking of was when seven enemy planes were shot down in the course of the Sinai Campaign, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.
I tried to post the link with my comment but the comment didn’t shown up. Will try to give the link in another comment.
Randall,
I have never located a place in scriptures where the Nation of Israel was referenced as being two sections, even when the ten tribes removed themselves from the two tribes neither of them became another nation they were still referred to Israel. One Nation. But, now I am beginning to understand, you do separate the nation into segments, those who believe and follow God and those who don’t.
This is the total point that I was driving at. When God sent the Messiah to the Israelites and they refused and killed him, all those of the nation that was presently living broke their covenant with God. Essentially, they refused God in the same way that men are refusing his Son today. There was a remnant of the Israelites or Jews who repented and accepted the Messiah these became the recipients of God’s promises to Abraham along with all of the faithful Israelites who had lived and died prior to the Messiah. They were not participating in the rejection of the Messiah. Remember that God’s promise to Abraham was not to just the Israelites it was to all nations. Through the root, the now living remnant the nation of Israel (Jews) the Gentiles were grafted to become as one nation also identified as followers of the Messiah. All of the portion of Israelites (Jews) that you are identifying as not acceptable as God’s servants have lost all claim to the inheritance that was promised to Abraham, The Israelites (Jews), and the New Covenant.
It is good to see that you too identify that the rebellious, unbelieving, evil, individuals in history who rejected the Son and have never repented are undeserving of receiving the promise.
Ponder upon this, if God did restore and give of the promise to all those men whom even you can see were evil and never served God then how could he separate the evil from the good in this era and be just in both covenants? In fact, all would be vain if judgment did not contain rewards and punishments.
As I reread this sentence the problem that I have been alluding to is displayed.
“It doesn’t have to mean every single Israelite w/o exception, but rather the nation/race as a whole.”
The (nation/race as a whole) cannot be divided into portions and remain (whole).
The rejection is more understandable when we consider how many had made the claim Jesus made before him.
We humans are so alike in many ways and if we had seen and heard the claims of many others and seen the multitudes that followed them as they did Jesus we would probably be just as sceptical or totally turned off by jesus claimand especially since his teaching was not what they had been taught he was to be teaching and doing for us Jews.
Simply put, and being honest, I would of probably wanted him stoned myself since he was against the scriptures as I had been taught by the top preachers of my faith.
Think of how you would of reacted to this one teaching so far off from our beliefs today.
How do we think of those that teach different from us today even those in the churches fo Christ?
Man has not changed much and Gods grace and mercy is our hope as it was for those through the ages.
The Lord never promised Israel that Israelites would not die in war, in fact the Lord gave Israel rules of war to excuse certain people a short time from going to battle for such reason.
Deuteronomy 20:1-9 If you have to go to war, you may find yourselves facing an enemy army that is bigger than yours and that has horses and chariots. But don’t be afraid! The LORD your God rescued you from Egypt, and he will help you fight. Before you march into battle, a priest will go to the front of the army and say, “Soldiers of Israel, listen to me! Today when you go into battle, don’t be afraid of the enemy, and when you see them, don’t panic. The LORD your God will fight alongside you and help you win the battle.
Then the tribal officials will say to the troops:
If any of you have built a new house, but haven’t yet moved in, you may go home. It isn’t right for you to die in battle and for somebody else to live in your new house.
If any of you have planted a vineyard but haven’t had your first grape harvest, you may go home. It isn’t right for you to die in battle and for somebody else to enjoy your grapes.
If any of you are engaged to be married, you may go back home and get married. It isn’t right for you to die in battle and for somebody else to marry the woman you are engaged to.
Finally, if any of you are afraid, you may go home. We don’t want you to discourage the other soldiers.
When the officials are finished giving these orders, they will appoint officers to be in command of the army.
Grace,
Keep reading and understand that those who were allowed to not participate was not just to protect them from death but the huge volume of leaving was to diminish the number of men going into battle so there would never be a force large enough to think that they were responsible for the victory. Read the accounts following in the scriptures of the size of the opposing forces, the number of battles engaged in, the volume of different peoples that the army of Joshua killed after God had given them over to be prey totally destroying them, pondering their possessions and inhabiting their land. I have not found a reference to the death of even one of the Israelites who served as Joshua finalized the cleansing of the land after God won the battles for them. Can you find where he had to replenish his warriors that had fallen in any of these battles? It appears that the same force that he started with is the same number that were still with him as he had completed all of the instructions the Lord had given him.
Despite the Israelites undoubted courage in battle, the tribal militias were not always successful. The Lord allowed Israel to be defeated in battle, yet Israel still glorified God. People had thought the Israelites had been defeated, but God always keeping His promises regained the ark that had been captured back to the Israelites.
1 Samuel 4-5
Then Samuel would speak to the whole nation of Israel.
One day the Israelites went out to fight the Philistines. They set up camp near Ebenezer, and the Philistines camped at Aphek. The Philistines made a fierce attack. They defeated the Israelites and killed about four thousand of them.
The Israelite army returned to their camp, and the leaders said, “Why did the LORD let us lose to the Philistines today? Let’s get the sacred chest where the LORD’s agreement with Israel is kept. Then the LORD will help us and rescue us from our enemies.”
The army sent some soldiers to bring back the sacred chest from Shiloh, because the LORD All-Powerful has his throne on the winged creatures on top of the chest.
As Eli’s two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, brought the chest into camp, the army cheered so loudly that the ground shook. The Philistines heard the noise and said, “What are those Hebrews shouting about?”
When the Philistines learned that the sacred chest had been brought into the camp, they were scared to death and said: The gods have come into their camp. Now we’re in real trouble! Nothing like this has ever happened to us before. We’re in big trouble! Who can save us from these powerful gods? They’re the same gods who made all those horrible things happen to the Egyptians in the desert.
Philistines, be brave and fight hard! If you don’t, those Hebrews will rule us, just as we’ve been ruling them. Fight and don’t be afraid.
The Philistines did fight. They killed thirty thousand Israelite soldiers, and all the rest ran off to their homes. Hophni and Phinehas were killed, and the sacred chest was captured.
That same day a soldier from the tribe of Benjamin ran from the battlefront to Shiloh. He had torn his clothes and put dirt on his head to show his sorrow. He went into town and told the news about the battle, and everyone started crying.
Eli was afraid that something might happen to the sacred chest. So he was sitting on his chair beside the road, just waiting. He was ninety-eight years old and blind, but he could hear everyone crying, and he asked, “What’s all that noise?”
The soldier hurried over and told Eli, “I escaped from the fighting today and ran here.”
“Young man, what happened?” Eli asked.
“Israel ran away from the Philistines,” the soldier answered. “Many of our people were killed, including your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas. But worst of all, the sacred chest was captured.”
Eli was still sitting on a chair beside the wall of the town gate. And when the man said that the Philistines had taken the sacred chest, Eli fell backwards. He was a very heavy old man, and the fall broke his neck and killed him. He had been a leader of Israel for forty years.
The wife of Phinehas was about to give birth. And soon after she heard that the sacred chest had been captured and that her husband and his father had died, her baby came. The birth was very hard, and she was dying. But the women taking care of her said, “Don’t be afraid—it’s a boy!”
She didn’t pay any attention to them. Instead she kept thinking about losing her husband and her father-in-law. So she said, “My son will be named Ichabod, because the glory of Israel left our country when the sacred chest was captured.”
The Philistines took the sacred chest from near Ebenezer to the town of Ashdod. 2 They brought it into the temple of their god Dagon and put it next to the statue of Dagon, which they worshiped.
When the people of Ashdod got up early the next morning, they found the statue lying facedown on the floor in front of the sacred chest. They put the statue back where it belonged. But early the next morning, it had fallen over again and was lying facedown on the floor in front of the chest. The body of the statue was still in one piece, but its head and both hands had broken off and were lying on the stone floor in the doorway. 5 This is the reason the priests and everyone else step over that part of the doorway when they enter the temple of Dagon in Ashdod.
The LORD caused a lot of trouble for the people of Ashdod and their neighbors. He made sores break out all over their bodies, and everyone was in a panic. Finally, they said, “The God of Israel did this. He is the one who caused all this trouble for us and our god Dagon. We’ve got to get rid of this chest.”
The people of Ashdod had all the Philistine rulers come to Ashdod, and they asked them, “What can we do with the sacred chest that belongs to the God of Israel?”
“Send it to Gath,” the rulers answered. But after they took it there, the LORD made sores break out on everyone in town. The people of Gath were frightened, so they sent the sacred chest to Ekron. But before they could take it through the town gates, the people of Ekron started screaming, “They’ve brought the sacred chest that belongs to the God of Israel! It will kill us and our families too!”
The people of Ekron called for another meeting of the Philistine rulers and told them, “Send this chest back where it belongs. Then it won’t kill us.”
Everyone was in a panic, because God was causing a lot of people to die, and those who had survived were suffering from the sores. They all cried to their gods for help.
Grace,
I see that you can fully understand that when the Israelites were not obeying God’s instructions they lost many lives in battle and were conquered and became slaves of other nations. Which is exactly my point Israel today is not enjoying the accompaniment of God fighting their battles or even guiding their nation. If God had been participating with them in those battles you cited they would not have lost almost one forth of their air force, they would not have lost the lives of the solders. You see they experienced those same kind of loses as Israel did when God was not with them. Why would you not consider that if God was now spread out into other nations and it was not his desire then those nations should be reaping the type of repercussions as you have described where the Ark of the Covenant was, while in the wrongful possession.
But, the major problem is that these stories and events have never been given to us for us to determine where God is today or to what segregated people God is now favoring. God sent his Son to restore mankind back to him, not just a peculiar segment of humanity.
God did send His Son to restore mankind back to Him. That has been what the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation is all about.
God made several unconditional and everlasting covenants with Israel. Unconditional covenants are those in which God promises to do certain things, no matter what. What He will do is not dependent upon the behavior of the other partner in these covenants. God simply states that this is what He is going to do, because He has made this decision for reasons of His own. Everlasting covenants are to be taken literally, as a contract between two parties. And these covenants are eternal, everlasting, and made with Israel that will therefore exist forever. And because these covenants are in place forever, God cannot halfway change His mind about them.
You seem to think all miracles have to be what you perceive as a miracle, so many people think that God no longer does miracles that they miss so many of them. The apostle Paul never fully recovered his sight after he had been struck blind, Galatians 4:15 “What has become of the happiness you once had? You would have taken out your own eyes if you could have and given them to me.” Galatians 6:11 “See what big letters I make when I write to you with my own hand.” I would still say that Paul receiving some sight back after he had been blind that it was a miracle, even though he was still partially blind and could not see very well.
The hand of God in different times and situations is not always the same. As the Scriptures given, God allowed them to lose battles, yet He didn’t leave Israel He still beat the enemy. God has always and is still keeping His promises to Israel.
Grace,
You mention that “God made several unconditional and everlasting covenants with Israel. Unconditional covenants are those in which God promises to do certain things, no matter what.”
I have never located scriptures that contain the context that you are describing. What I did find that God promised Israel many things that were dependent upon Israel remaining true to his commands and requests. This is the total message through history Israel obeyed God for only very short time frames. Then God used calamities and other nations to punish them to the point that they would realize their error and they would again turn and seek God’s favor.
Show me a few of the scriptures that convey your concept that these promises were totally unconditional and were forever.
Here is a small sample of what I have seen.
(1 Ki 9:5 KJV) Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. 6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: 7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: 8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? 9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
I know you like to ride me since I don’t concur with the CofC theology about salvation, and you will look for anything to argue over we do not agree on. And that is fine it’s just late, but I will comment. And it is quite amazing you act so surprised about it when there are many people who have spoken and about it throughout history. I’m not unaware of the CofC tactics when you are not in their “denomination” yes I said your church is a denomination. So, have a good rest, I am very tired, and I will chat with you again very soon.
Even though Israel flourished during Solomon’s reign, the blessing were not the final fulfillment of the promises to Abraham. Indigenous people still occupied the land in Solomon’s time. God had not yet fulfilled His promise to Abraham that his descendants would possess the land between the rivers. People think God’s promises to Israel are supposed to be in a neat little package, when actually in doing an indepth study throughout the Scriptures that involves the comprehension of hundreds of prophecies to see the whole picture come together.
In making the unconditional and everlasting promises, God revealed His purpose to Abraham about the nation of Israel. It is a purpose to which God is absolutely committed. He will not allow anything or anyone to stand in the way of His executing it.
Genesis 12:2-3 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Israelites are still referred to as His people (11:1,2). True Israelites are those Israelites who believe in Christ. Repeating God’s promises to Abraham and David, there would always be a remnant of believing Israelites (11:5,7).
A few OT passages copied from the ESVBible online. Perhaps they are relevant to the discussion between Grace and Larry.
Deuteronomy 4: 25-31
“When you father children and children’s children, and have grown old in the land, lif you act corruptly by making a carved image in the form of anything, and mby doing what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, so as to provoke him to anger, 26 I ncall heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the Lord owill scatter you among the peoples, pand you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 28 And qthere you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, rthat neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 sBut from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you tin the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice. 31 For the Lord your God is ua merciful God. vHe will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
Jeremiah 31: 18-21
I have heard pEphraim grieving,
‘You have disciplined me, and I was disciplined,
like an untrained calf;
qbring me back that I may be restored,
for you are the Lord my God.
19 For after rI had turned away, I relented,
and after I was instructed, sI struck my thigh;
tI was ashamed, and I was confounded,
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
20 pIs Ephraim my dear son?
uIs he my darling child?
For as often as I speak against him,
I do remember him still.
vTherefore my heart2 yearns for him;
I will surely have mercy on him,
declares the Lord
Jeremiah 31: 31-37
31 o“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when qI took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, rthough I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: sI will put my law within them, and I will write it ton their hearts. uAnd I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ vfor they shall all know me, wfrom the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For xI will forgive their iniquity, and yI will remember their sin no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord,
who zgives the sun for light by day
and athe fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
bthe Lord of hosts is his name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the Lord,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord:
“If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
dthen I will cast off all the offspring of Israel
for all that they have done,
declares the Lord.”
Hosea 3
And the Lord said to me, x“Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins. ”So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a yhomer and a lethech1 of barley.And I said to her, “You must zdwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you. ”For the children of Israel zshall dwell many days awithout king or prince, bwithout sacrifice or cpillar, without dephod or ehousehold gods. Afterward fthe children of Israel shall return and gseek the Lord their God, and hDavid their king, iand they shall come in fear to the Lord and to his goodness in the jlatter days.
These are great passages that tell us a lot. I especially love the beauty of the Jeremiah 31:31-37 passages.
Jeremiah (31:31) says that there is another covenant the Lord will make that is the New Covenant and (31:32) describes the covenant the Lord made when He brought His people out of Egypt, the older covenant in this passage is the Mosaic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant being broken was a necessary prologue to the presentation of the New Covenant. The fact of the people’s failure under the Mosaic Covenant to keep the laws and it was incumbent on both parties to the covenant the covenant had been broken. The passages of Jeremiah 31:31-37 breaks down into three basic sections. In the first section, the Lord announces the coming of a New Covenant, unlike the Old Covenant when they were brought out of Egypt (31:31-32). The second section of this passage (31:33-34) describes the key characteristics of the New Covenant. Finally, in the last section, the Lord asserts the immutability, eternality, and permanence of both the nation of Israel, and the New Covenant by proxy (31:35-37).
In these passages the Lord continues His assertion of His power to preserve Israel by noting that unless the heavens can be measured, and the foundations of the Earth can be searched out below, then Israel will remain. Here the Lord calls to focus not divine power, but divine knowledge. By adding this clause the passage requires one to not only have abilities that only the Lord Himself posses, but it also requires that one know the Lord’s own secrets. The declaration protects Israel by virtue that the Lord would not turn against His people, since the Lord has the power, and the intention to preserve the nation of Israel, thus the Lord lays out for the reader His duel role as Israel’s physical protector, and spiritual protector.
These passages reflects the will of the Lord in regards to His people. The Lord desires relationship with His people, and will stop at nothing to do what is necessary to provide for right relationship to be played out. In this sense these passages not only serves as a prophecy of the New Covenant, but it also serves as a testimony of God’s intense love, and eternal faithfulness to His people.
I wonder that little comment has been made over the destruction of the temple, erasing all the genealogy. Who can be PROVED to be a historical Jew at this time? Is there a DNA test to apply to be a Jew, or is a personal statement enough? I am decidedly NOT a Jew hater, and I think “replacement theology” is better understood as “completed theology.” BTW -I have often wondered how much of a role Darby dispensationalism played in creating the state of Israel. Did that, along with a (justifiable) desire to right a great wrong (holocaust) result in the nation? I’ve seen little along that lines, but to my mind, well intentioned people sought to help out God and even perhaps “bring the 1000 year kingdom” a bit closer. I shudder at the TV prophets who claim to KNOW that a certain action in Israel will “force” God’s hand; ignore such nonsense.
Above, someone wrote the following: “Who can be PROVED to be a historical Jew at this time? ” Gosh, Hitler didn’t have any problem identifying them! Just b/c officials records may have been lost in the destruction of the temple doesn’t mean any unofficial record have been lost. Perhaps God still knows who they are. And I’m no Darbyite.
And then this: ” I think “replacement theology” is better understood as “completed theology.” A rose by any other name would still smell just as sweet.
The view that Grace takes on Israel being restored is similiar in concept to Mormonism. Follow me here. Mormonism claims that while the gospel was given to the people of the Middle East, that Jesus came and gave a gospel to the Americas. So now there are two gospels given and yet the gospel given by Jesus in the Middle East incorporated all people under it which makes any other gospel moot & unneccesary and especially one that contradicts the original gospel given, wrong.
Many would argue that Mormonism is wrong, then they turn around and claim that Israel must be restored, even though Jesus gave a gospel that incorporated the Jews & gentiles alike making all other systems and law unneccessary and moot.
Note: Matthew 5:18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” This is fulfillment theology and Jesus did it. He nailed the Old Law to the cross and instituted the Perfect Law of Liberty with His blood.
Mormonism teaches that they are the restored Israel.
Mormons accept God’s covenant with Abraham and his lineage, but emphasized its departure after the death of Jesus, and explicitly state that this covenant was restored at the time of Joseph Smith. Mormons believe they carry the blessing of God via Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then through Ephraim and Manasseh. When they get their patriarchal blessing they are associated spiritually with one of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mormons believe that the promises and blessings to be bestowed on Israel at the end of days is no longer the inheritance of Israel but are to be bestowed on the Mormon church.
During the initiatory and endowment ceremonies, they repeatedly promise specific blessings containing the words “House of Israel.” The pinnacle of their worship is the sealing of couples and families together in the Abrahamic Covenant. People who are baptized into the Mormon church enter the covenant to be of the House of Israel.
It is an article of the Mormon faith that other churches do not have divine authorization to replace anything, let alone the Jewish people.
Replacement theology is one of the most insidious teachings in the world. The promises given to the Jewish nation, Israel, become twisted and incorrect. From the prophetic prospective it is simply not biblical.
Hi Dwight,
That’s quite a leap of logic to conclude that maybe this is what Grace believes. I am sure you would not want anyone to make this type of leap of logic concerning what you believe. Perhaps we should all make it a point to NOT treat others on this blog in this manner. No doubt you agree with this. Isn’t the golden rule rule something like we should treat others as we would want to be treated? Are you aware that some Mormon teachings are derived from the views of Sidney Rigdon, a protegee of Alexander Campbell who later associated himself with the Mormons? I think he be came the #3 guy in their hierarchy. Richard Hughes has written some about the similarities in Mormonism and the CofC. You might find his writings of interest.
Hesed,
Randall
When the Pilgrims and others came to America, they were amazed at how close the beliefs of the Native Americans were to their own.
Many believe Jesus didn’t just sit idle most of His life all but 3 years, but, busily taught all over the world as much as whichever civilization could handle.
Just because it was not known or written about from the mideast doesn’t mean it never happened.
Jesus could walk through walls, so He sure could cross oceans easily.
No one was left without any hope.