[Because this is an unusually long post, I’m skipping tomorrow to allow more time for discussion.]
We are considering Michael Shank’s book Muscle and a Shovel
Dear Michael:
I think you are a well-intended, good hearted, intelligent man with a gift for narrative writing. You do an amazing job of story telling. You might not agree me, but I’m confident that your writing skills are a gift from God.
I don’t know much about your background. I know you grew up Baptist, evidently in a church with roots in the Landmark Baptist tradition, and that you were converted to an extremely conservative version of the Church of Christ.
I know that you studied at Southern Christian University (now Amridge University), which was founded by Rex Turner, Sr., and which at one point represented a very conservative brand of Church of Christ thought as well.
I want you to know that my roots are similar in several respects. I grew up in North Alabama, famous for having a large concentration of Churches of Christ, most of which are very conservative. In my home county, my church was the “liberal” one because we believed the church treasury could be used to support orphanages. But by today’s standards, my home church was very conservative. We even made a point to have the opening prayer after the announcements because the announcements are not one of the Five Acts of Worship.
I’m a third-generation elder, and growing up, my best friends were the sons of local Church of Christ preachers, “liberal” or otherwise. Usually otherwise. I attended Lipscomb. And I am a life-long member of the Churches of Christ, having been baptized at age 8. I’m 59, nearly 60.
And I grew up believing a great deal of what you teach in Muscle & Shovel. Had we crossed paths when I was 18, we would have had much of our belief systems in common.
I did wonder, though, about the Holy Spirit. I never bought the “gift of the Holy Spirit” = “eternal life” argument. The grammar just doesn’t support it. But I was not convinced that there is a personal indwelling until much later. I just considered it an open or unresolved question.
In trying to reconcile the “everyone with faith is saved” passages with the “baptism saves” passages, I also considered the argument that “faith” = “plan of salvation.” But I pulled out an old-fashioned paper concordance and looked up “faith” to see whether “plan of salvation” fits where “faith” is used, and it just doesn’t. And so I rejected that theory.
That also left me uncertain as to how to reconcile the verses, but I felt better admitting not knowing the answer than imposing one. (And I tried out as many theories as I could find for many years.)
I’ve taught Bible class since I was 21 nearly every week — often two and three times a week — except these last few months when my health has kept me out of the classroom. I learned early on that my students felt a deep-seated necessity to know the answers to the questions. And sometimes, I had to admit in class that despite all my study and prayer, I did not know the answer. And that actually made some students angry.
Only later did I realize that we had been teaching a form of grace that insisted that you must know the answer to be saved. The students came to my classes to gain the right “positions” on the “issues.” “I don’t know” was just not good enough!
And so I turned to a very diligent study of grace. Using several translations, especially cross-referencing Bibles, and a paper concordance, I sorted through the texts, searching for a better, truer understanding of grace and the Holy Spirit.
I was a math major at Lipscomb. The schedule wouldn’t let me double major in Bible — which is what I really wanted to do. (Ironically, the requirement of daily chapel kept me from taking many of the Bible and Greek courses I went to Lipscomb to take!)
One reason I chose to attend Lipscomb was a Bible class I’d had at church where the teacher explained grace this way. He drew a simple line graph. We have to accomplish a certain level of righteous living (draws line at around 30%). And if we attain to that level, God will make up the difference! (draws arrow up to 100%).
I asked where the line is? How good must we be? What degree of obedience is enough? And the teacher admitted that he did not know. And I became angry. Just like my later Bible students. Not knowing what I must do to remain saved was just not good enough.
And so I attended Lipscomb and learned very little new about the Bible until I took Harvey Floyd’s class on Romans. He drew the same chart on the wall, and he asked us how good we had to be for God to reach down and lift us the rest of the way? Some said “Doing our best.” Dr. Floyd explained that our best is perfection, because God allows us to suffer no temptations that we are unable to resist (1 Cor 10:13). The class sat for a while in panicked silence.
Eventually, Dr. Floyd read,
(Rom 6:23 ESV) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
He asked us to define “wages.” Well, wages are what you work for. They’re what you earn.
He asked us to define “free.” Well, free is at no cost whatsoever.
And then he asked us, where is the line? Where on the graph is the line for “free”? And we had to admit that it’s at the very bottom of the chart.
Then he asked whether we believed the Bible.
I walked out of the classroom literally unable to feel the ground I was so excited, finally feeling the burden of pleasing God lifted from my shoulders. I might have danced — had I known how and had it not been Lipscomb!
I accepted God’s “free gift” as being “free.” But I held reservations. I mean, I had all the standard concerns. What about James? What about obedience? But — unlike many — I believed the Bible and accepted the answer. I just wasn’t entirely sure how to answer the “but what about … ?” questions. But I knew there had to be answers or else Paul could not have said what he said.
You see, while I’m the sort who really has to understand — and will do the study to figure things out — I’m not the sort to disagree with scripture until I understand. I was raised on–
(Deu 29:29 ESV) 29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
In my church, this meant you don’t have to understand it to accept it. And I didn’t understand grace as a free gift — but everything in my being told me it was true — and I accepted it. (I get goosebumps as I type. This was one of those days like my wedding and the births of my children. A life defining day.)
I later took a course with Dr. Floyd on the Holy Spirit. It didn’t really impact me until his very last class, when he passed out a chart, with books, chapters, and verses, listing dozens and dozens of things the Bible says the Spirit does. And I was flabbergasted. I mean, my training at home had been that the Spirit may or may not indwell personally, but the indwelling wouldn’t really change anything, even if true.
That’s a healthier attitude than outright denial of the Spirit’s contemporary work in Christians, but it left me uncurious. And then Dr. Floyd’s chart forced me to admit that the Spirit just might matter quite a lot.
I was married just before being graduated from Lipscomb, and then attended law school here in Tuscaloosa. My wife is a CPA, and so spring break meant my wife was busy with tax season until midnight and my friends were all at the beaches. And so I filled my hours with study projects.
The first project I took up was Dr. Floyd’s Holy Spirit chart. And I sat down with a concordance and a few Bible translations to try to see what the verses might mean. I am no charismatic, and was certainly not one then. I’d seen people taken advantage of by some bad preaching on that topic. And so I was reluctant to believe in a personal indwelling.
But after I time of intense prayer, frustrated that I just couldn’t figure it out, I was pointed to Hebrews 8. And then all became clear.
(Heb 8:7-13 ESV) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: ‘
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jeremiah prophesied that God would make a “new covenant” with his people. The Hebrews writer says this has now happened. It’s Christianity. And Jeremiah gives some of the terms of this new covenant.
Unlike what had been true under the Mosaic law, God says, “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts.” What did the Jews do before Jesus? Well, they studied their Tanakhs (what we call the Old Testament) very well, memorizing large portions of it. The synagogues were focused on Torah study. They were students of God’s word with an intensity that few modern-day Christians can match.
What changed? Aren’t we supposed to do the exact same thing? Well, according to Jeremiah, under the new covenant, God takes on a certain key part of the responsibility for this work himself. God himself writes his laws on our hearts and in our minds! God does much of the heavy lifting with his own muscles and shovel.
How does he do this? Only through the word? Well, that would be no change at all. Then how?
And this is when I became intensely frustrated, because the Hebrews writer is quoting Jeremiah as plainly teaching that things would be different in a radical way. And I kept thinking that what I knew about the Bible and the rules for how to worship and how to organize a church I myself had learned from sitting in classes and hearing sermons and reading the Bible. God never wrote on my heart: “Thou shalt not worship with an instrument.” That came from learning the Law of Inclusion and Exclusion — not from the breath of God.
And then it occurred to me: Jesus himself said,
(Mat 7:12 ESV) 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
The Golden Rule! I learned it as a child, but why is my heart changed to actually want to do it — imperfectly as I do. The text says that God himself writes his laws on my heart in a way that the Jews did not enjoy under the Law of Moses.
Could I accept that, through the Spirit, God might do this? Yes. I don’t believe that God wrote the Regulative Principle of Worship on my heart, but yes, this I could accept. It’s there — and if God said he did it, who am I to call him a liar?
After all, this was not about God granting me inspired knowledge of propositional truths. It was about God molding my heart — my feelings and character.
Thanks to a good cross-referencing Bible, I soon found myself reading —
(Gal 5:14 ESV) 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Again, love for my neighbor is not really an intellectual attainment. It’s not an answer to be put on a test. It’s how I feel. It’s who I am. And if God says he’s trying to write that on my heart, who am I to deny it?
I next turned to —
(Phi 2:12-13 ESV) now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Again, God places himself in a personal relationship with me as his child to change my heart so that I will (desire) what he desires and work to see that accomplished. He changes me to want what God wants.
I was blown away. Nothing at college or church or in my personal studies had prepared me for any of this. But suddenly, passages such as Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 13 took on new life for me. No longer was I charged to study and learn and make it on my own to achieve a certain, undefinable level of goodness so that God might lift me up the rest of the way.
Rather, Christianity became about being a changed person, with a heart re-formed and reshaped by the hands of God to love as he wants me to love. And the Bible suddenly began to make so much more sense.
(Gal 5:18 ESV) 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Why not? Because I’m above the law and can do as I please? No, because “as I please” is to love as God wants me to love — and so I no longer need a law to keep me in my place.
It made so much sense. But here’s the next part. If God writes his laws on my heart, then the laws that matter most are those he writes on my heart. It’s not what anyone else tells me. It’s what God himself, by the Spirit, changes my heart to become — meaning it’s much more about the condition of my heart than the power of my intellect.
And, of course, Jesus and his apostles repeatedly say exactly this —
(Mat 22:36-40 ESV) 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Rom 13:8-10 ESV) 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(Jam 2:8 ESV) 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
And this is when I left behind much of my childhood training. It took a lot of time to put it together, to answer the “but what about … ?” questions, but I began teaching some of what I had concluded in class to see whether the students would agree or prove me wrong. The members of my church know their Bibles, and if I’m wrong, the odds are that I’ll be called out on it.
There were lots of very hard questions, which drove me to study all the more, but not disproof. Rather, there were tears, as adults twice as old as me learned for the first time that they really were saved. You see, we had members in retirement age who’d never been taught grace — not real, scriptural, honest-to-God grace. And as they heard it, they wept in joy.
And over time, I took my class notes, typed them up on an old Leading Edge Model M computer with 5 1/4″ floppies, and that became my book The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace published about 20 years ago. Like Muscle & Shovel, it’s written from the author’s — my — personal perspective. This is how I came to see Christianity differently.
And here’s my invitation to you. I’ve read your book, cover to cover, even though I had no confidence that I’d be persuaded by it. But before I reviewed it, I knew I had to read it.
And even though I’m sure you have no confidence in anything I’ve written, I beg you to read another point of view from my book. It’s a free download.
Prove me wrong. Write up your disproof, and I’ll post it right here for all my readers.
You could choose to only read those things that affirm what you already believe. But that’s not the kind of person I think you are. Rather, I think you’ve taken one very important step in your search for the truth — but there are many more steps to take.
And if I’m wrong, prove me wrong.
Game on…
Jay,
I have been in the preaching ministry for nearly forty years but for nearly half of those years I labored under my preaching to others while I was unable to get it right myself. Then I too was made aware of grace. I knew my theology was correct but things in my life were not so easily perfected. Grace saved me, and for the honest man who acknowledges they cannot attain righteousness in themselves, grace is their only hope. I thank you for you for your earnest and passionate defense of the gospel which saves…Christ Jesus crucified.
Jay, you referred to John 3:34 — it was my study in John and that passage that was my “breakthrough” in understanding. Below are a few thoughts I wrote . . . A bit long for this post but it helps me, a fourth or fifth generation C of C.
THE CUP IS BROKEN
Dear Dad,
I broke THE MEASURING CUP the other day. I know the family has treasured THE MEASURING CUP for generations; I had been trying to protect it as best I could, but the light of truth came through a crack in the door, struck THE measuring cup and shattered it, perhaps beyond repair. I had not realized that it was so fragile, even though I had been warned severely about not getting to close to THE MEASURING CUP or I might get hurt, burned, or worse. Yes, Dad, I’m writing about THE MEASURING CUP of the Holy Spirit.
I was not trying to break THE MEASURING CUP at all. I was just seeking Biblical truth in the gospel of John and Acts. Some of the commentaries you had taught me to hold in high esteem spoke of the “full measure of the Spirit, the Apostolic measure, the miraculous measure, and the ordinary measure of the Spirit”. To be sure, I was taught to acknowledge the gift of the Holy Spirit through baptism in the ordinary measure; and at times was even told that the gift of the Holy Spirit was the word of God only. It sounded good and even safe at the time, because we did not want to be accused of emotional excess or worse; our logical approach to Biblical truth and THE MEASURING CUP would certainly protect us from danger.
I think the light of truth first came when I was studying John 3:34 “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.” KJV While this verse was the premise our beloved commentators used to craft THE MEASURING CUP, I was not reading the King James, but the Greek, which seems to give a different sense. I know neither of us is a true Greek scholar and have to work our way through slowly, but look at the Greek: in John 3:34 Hón gár apésteilen ho Theós tá reémata toú Theoú laleí ou gár ek métrou dídoosin tó Pneúma (Whom for has sent God the words of God speaks for not of measure he gives the spirit). Looking at this, it is not so clear that it is God giving the Spirit without measure to the one He has sent; it is more likely that “the one whom God has sent” is the one giving the Spirit without measure, as “the one sent” is the subject of the verse. This is consistent with Jesus’ words in John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth”. Certainly the next verse indicates that God loves the Son, and has given all things to him, which would (Acts 10:38) include the Spirit. But that still leaves verse 34 as saying the Spirit is given without measure, whether it is God or the one sent who is doing the giving. Please don’t misunderstand; I believe Jesus had the Spirit without measure. But I don’t see anywhere that the Holy Spirit was given by measure. There is a lot about the gift of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Spirit and the fullness of the Spirit. I tried to find other verses that spoke of “measures of the Spirit”, but I came up empty; nowhere else in the New Testament does it speak of a “measure of the Spirit” or any limits on the Spirit at all, but always the sense of completeness and fullness. How strange that we would create or build an entire doctrine about the gift of the Holy Spirit based on a verse that says the exact opposite of our conclusions. I thought of how I was taught that only Jesus had the “full measure” of the Holy Spirit, so I thought I should look at the “fullness or filling of the Holy Spirit”. Here is what I found (New American Standard Version search):
“Filled with (Holy) Spirit”
Luke 1:15 “For he (John the Baptizer) will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb.
Luke 1:41 And it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 13:9 But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze upon him,
Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
So if those verses say something to us, what about verses that talk about being full of the Spirit? Please look at these verses:
“Full of the Spirit”
Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led about by the Spirit in the wilderness
Acts 6:3 “But select from among you, brethren, seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.
Acts 6:5 And the statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he (Stephen) gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
Acts 11:24 for he (Barnabas) was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And considerable numbers were brought to the Lord.
Perhaps I had been confused about the difference between the “gift of the Spirit” we received at baptism (Acts 2:38) and the “gifts of the Spirit” in 1Cor.12-14 that were given as the Spirit willed (1Cor.12:11) through Apostolic authority (Acts 8:18). Yes, the apostles authorized by Jesus were enabled by the will of God to impart “some spiritual gift” (Romans 1:11), and yes indeed those “spiritual gifts” ended when those receiving them died, but there were numbers of believers who were “filled” or “full” of the Holy Spirit who did not receive (from the New Testament record) what we would normally call “the miraculous measure of the Spirit”, among them John the Baptizer, Elizabeth, Mary (mother of Jesus), those present at Acts 4:31, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas. Also, we do not see any record of “gifts of the Spirit” among the household of Cornelius beyond the initial tongues speaking in Acts 10 nor do we see the Apostles of Acts 2 continuing in the gift of tongues. Neither is it certain that every believer had the hands of the Apostles laid upon him or her. What seems to be apparent is the Spirit at work as the Spirit wills. Acts 2:38 does not promise us a partial, limited, measured gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not “and you shall receive the x% gift of the Holy Spirit; no limit or measure is mentioned. It is not that Jesus was given 100%, the Apostles 70%, those who received an Apostolically imparted gift 40%, and us “ordinary” Christians 10% or some other measure. What seems clear is that Jesus had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for Him to do; the Apostles had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for them to do; those Apostolically gifted had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for them to do; we receive through baptism the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work God has for us to do. The only difference is the will of God through the Spirit in every situation, whether it is Jesus, the Apostles, Cornelius, those apostolically gifted, or we today. We were all baptized by the Spirit into one body and made to drink of one Spirit (1Cor.12:13) and different gifts were given to different people and at different times and through different means, but the same Spirit, just as God desired (1Cor.12:18).
Please do not misunderstand, I’m not looking for a “new” faith or a “new” tongue or a “new” baptism or a “new” revelation. Jesus is indeed the final revealing authority (Heb.1:1) and the faith has been perfectly delivered once for all (Jude 3). I am looking for a clearer understanding of New Testament truth with the Holy Spirit guiding me into a clearer conviction of Jesus’ claim to my discipleship and servant hood.
Yes, Dad, THE MEASURING CUP is broken, but perhaps it has only served to hold us back from the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) as we have grieved (Eph.4:30) or quenched the Spirit (1Thess.5:19) within, instead of being filled with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). Realizing that every generation must continue to search for Biblical truth; I don’t think that I’ll try to glue THE MEASURING CUP back together; it’s probably past time to just throw it away. From you I inherited generations of wisdom about worshiping in truth; perhaps it is past time to apply that wisdom to worshiping in spirit as well (John 4:24).
I do love you for bringing me to the knowledge of salvation, and I do not seek to hurt you; I would hope together we would allow and enjoy the filling and fullness of the Spirit and allow him to bear fruit in our lives that gives honor and glory to our Savior.
Your grateful son…
John, I am grateful that you have moved beyond some of the limitations of your initial understandings as a boy. However, it appears clear from your post that you have merely replaced that old cup with one only slightly larger. You describe its limits in great detail. And just as the time came for your father’s cup to be broken as your own understanding grew, so, I hope, the time will come when that more recent model you hold will be broken as well. I have experienced just such a path, that first cup being broken when I was a young CoC preacher. And the second cup was broken only after I learned to fellowship brothers who were outside the CoC, and to see among them things I had long thought could not be.
I am wise enough to know that I still hold such a cup, that its limits are my own self-confidence and unbelief. I hope I am wise enough to let this one drop to the floor as well when the time comes.
And the same for the cup after that one…
Jay,
Thanks for reviewing this book. It is obvious you put a lot of effort into doing so.
Jay, as you indicated to Michael, you both weave a good story. But you weave a story of the blind leading the blind.
Jay wrote, “I’ve taught Bible class since I was 21 nearly every week — often two and three times a week — ”
Then you go on to explain you knew nothing of what you must do to enter God’s knigdom, until you attended Lipscomb, and there Dr.Floyd Harvey, became your comforter, your spirit of truth, your holy ghost who taught you all things.
You have said many times “all Christians recieve the holy ghost at baptism,and as I recall you said you were baptized at the tender age of eight. Did you not become a christian, did you not become a holy ghost christian at eight years old when you were baptized, or did you have to wait years for him to come, in the person of Dr Harvey ?
This is the description of the comforter, as we find it in the bible. And it says nothing about comming in the form of a college professor, or even a preacher, or elder.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The few people Jesus was speaking to at the time, knew what he meant without it being explained by a third party.
“I’m a third-generation elder, and growing up, my best friends were the sons of local Church of Christ preachers, “liberal” or otherwise. Usually otherwise. I attended Lipscomb. And I am a life-long member of the Churches of Christ, having been baptized at age 8. I’m 59, nearly 60.”
Jay, I’m sorry to have to say your church background as a child does not qualify one to become a teacher.
” I mean, my training at home had been that the Spirit may or may not indwell personally, but the indwelling wouldn’t really change anything, even if true.”
Maybe you should have paid more attention to your elders at home, instead of change agents in school.
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Jay final question, do you believe your parents are dammed because of their belief, do you believe your home schooling would have sent you to hell.
Jay do you believe your parents loved you more than your professor, if so what is written in the bible about “love covering sins”.
I am convinced that for many there is something very emotional and psychological in needing to believe “I belong to the only true church”. Indeed, the Bible remains for them the focal point for doctrine and beliefs; but, inspite of the claim of not letting feelings determine their faith, they reach a “level” where their entire identity hinges on being perfect in matters of religion, and to give that up, they feel, is to lose everything, and that terrifies them; not necessarily about going to hell, but in being a “nothing”.
In the same vein there are many who are seekers, yet the treasure of their seeking is a doorway into becoming unique, distinctive. I do not mean to challenge their honesty. However, the desire to be “Right” about it all often becomes a need to feel more correct and obedient than others in order to validate their existence.
When they hear someone say that it is faith in Jesus Christ that gives life they cannot bring themselves to even faintly imagine that faith in Christ without “doctrinal perfection” can give any sense of importance, of purpose. Yet, in my own journey, when Christ became the center of my universe I experenced a life that is greater than a movement or a group. I experienced a oneness with all that allows me to say, “This is what Jesus Christ is for me. His death is my example to let self get out of the way so that I can recognize that God is ‘All in All’ and how that it is in God we all ‘…live, move, and have our being’. And though I was baptized at nine years of age, it has been this continuous awareness that has become my resurrection and allows me to experience each morning as a fresh new beginning. Does that mean that the day does not, at times, become heavy and difficult, painful and tearful? Not at all. But when you know that getting out of bed in the morning is a new baptism and cleansing, you have hope.
Laymond, you have gone far beyond the usual exaggeration and deliberate misunderstanding to bitter and malicious ranting and misrepresentation. It is one thing to disagree with Jay, even to attack the ideas he puts forth. But you are not even pretending to do this. You don’t even really take issue with Jay’s view in your last post. You just snipe and sneer and stab at a person whose experience is beyond your comprehension. It has nothing to do with belief, right or wrong. It’s personal. Laymond, your post is not an argument, it’s just bile– bitter, sad and old.
I am so very sorry that this what my people have passed on to you, You deserved better.
Charles,
I am not sure what “larger cup” you refer to. . . . Do I need a “new” faith or a “new” tongue or a “new” baptism or a “new” revelation? Or is the understanding below not enough?
What seems clear is that Jesus had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for Him to do; the Apostles had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for them to do; those Apostolically gifted had the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work that God had for them to do; we receive through baptism the Holy Spirit in all fullness to accomplish the work God has for us to do. The only difference is the will of God through the Spirit in every situation, whether it is Jesus, the Apostles, Cornelius, those apostolically gifted, or we today.
Generally . . .
I echo thoughts concerning Laymond. If “change agents” are seeking to move beyond apostolic authority, they will have to “change” without me. With John above,I see a freshness in my life to continuing submission to His will. To say, If I only get the “doctrine/teaching/command/worship/organization” perfect, God will love me is to completely miss the concept of grace and live in legalism. To say I can do whatever I like in regard to “doctrine/teaching/command/worship/organization” is to deny NT authority and live as a libertine. The understanding of faith and grace leads to unwavering submission.
I think we moved beyond “apostolic authority” when we declared that all the apostles Jesus ever gave the church are dead. When we no longer needed to desire to prophesy, when we started forbidding others to speak in tongues, and when we broke the local church into discrete, disconnected autonomous congregations who do not fellowship one another. Or when we stopped hearing directly from the Holy Spirit, when we decided that He no longer gives his gifts to the church, and when we strung together a “plan” of salvation from disparate bible verses in place of simple faith in a Savior.
So, I think that “moving beyond” ship has sailed.
Charles, if I put any stock in anything you say I might be offended, but I don’t so I’m not.
There is much more I could say but won’t because it would do no good .
Charles, I didn’t even comment on the thing Jay wrote that surprised me most. Because I realize that one who is baptized at the age of eight might think differently than an adult.
Jay wrote “I walked out of the classroom literally unable to feel the ground I was so excited, finally feeling the burden of pleasing God lifted from my shoulders. I might have danced — had I known how and had it not been Lipscomb!”
He said the burden of pleasing God had been lifted. I took that to mean, he no longer had to please God. In my opinion doing your best to please someone whom you love with all your being, should not be seen as a great burden. Especially one who had given so much.
No Charles, I didn’t publish my first version of my comment. and am pleased I didn’t.
Maybe I just misread what Jay really meant, I surely hope so.
So, Charles, how would you distinguish between NT authority and apostolic authority, if you do see a difference?
Laymond,
I see it very possible that those Christians in Rome who Paul expounded the meaning and the power expressed in their baptism, very possibly felt a lot like Jay has expressed. How about your experience have you ever had a comparable experience?
Jay, on page 11 of The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace you said:
“Being saved means hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, and being baptized.
Grace only covers the sins of those in grace. You get into grace by be
ing saved. We can never
“agree to disagree” about how to be saved in the first place.”
Is this still your position? Can we “agree to disagree” with those who say “baptism has nothing to do with salvation” and “baptism doesn’t save us”? Are those people saved who only prayed the sinner’s prayer? I’m trying to reconcile what you said in THSARG with what you said in Born of Water.
And what about those who say we were saved before time? They disagree with you about how to be saved.
John, since I never read anywhere of NT authority.. at least not in the NT canon itself, I don’t know how one would approach that question. The concept of canonical authority is apparently something not anticipated by the NT writers. It’s someone else’s idea, formed much later, so a comparison seems moot.
And “apostolic authority” appears to be something exercised by apostles, but scripture does not suggest that this is the only authority Jesus delegates, and it does not suggest that it was limited only to the apostles who lived in the first century.
John, these seem to me to be fairly ill-defined and poorly-grounded terms for what appears to be something seen to be of great importance. Perhaps we could discuss the substance of these things, where there is any, rather than the labeling.
steven,
HSRG was published around 1995, as I recall. It was written 20 years ago. Born of water was written in 2002 (first version). And, yes, my views changed in the nearly 10 year gap between those two books.
It remains true that we must find agreement on who has been or who hasn’t been saved. The Kingdom, like all Kingdoms, has boundaries. Not everyone is in it, and it’s important to know, at least in principle, who is in and who is out — acknowledging that perfect certainty won’t be ours in this age.
My position in Born of Water is mainly different from HSRG in that I came to believe God accepts flawed baptisms. When I wrote HSRG, I did not get into the question of whether Baptist baptism is accepted by God even though I disagree with the Baptists as to when salvation occurs normatively. But I had already reached my present conclusion as to Baptists (but the publisher cut that chapter for space — also a great chapter on predestination).
However, when I published HSRG, I had not yet sorted out how I believe God will deal with other flawed baptisms — that is, other than Southern Baptist baptisms. That took a LOT of prayer, study, and time.
Since I wrote Born of Water, I’ve learned a LOT more about how faith and penitence work — how and why God saves us on the terms that he does. The idea that initial conditions for salvation might be different from post-baptismal conditions is logically true (that is, it is necessarily theoretically possible), but how strictly God imposes his entry conditions is far more about God’s character than logical possibilities.
I now follow K. C. Moser, who argued that the terms of salvation are not arbitrarily chosen by God but inherent in what God is trying to accomplish. That is, per Michael Gorman in The Cruciform God (a truly outstanding book) God imposes faith in/faithfulness to Jesus because his purpose is for us to be transformed to become like Jesus. Hence, it’s not JUST a rule. It’s of the essence as to God’s purposes. To be saved, we must emulate the faithfulness of Jesus.
Therefore, the conditions of entry aren’t designed as barriers or arbitrary conditions but steps toward the accomplishing of God’s purposes. We take the step of faith and God gives his Spirit to empower us to continue along that path.
And so I would no longer say that the entry of believers into the Kingdom is somehow on different terms than how we remain in the Kingdom once we’ve entered. It’s all faith — but faith understood much more deeply from where I began.
In short, yes, my positions on a number of issues have changed. I think they’ve matured — but there are those who would disagree. I’m sure you can find other changes in my thinking — but that’s because I’ve never declared myself finished learning about God. If God leaves me here long enough, I’m sure I’ll learn more and continue to refine my views.
And maybe one day I’ll have time and energy to rewrite the old books, but that won’t be anytime soon.
I appreciate what Jay is saying about his early writings changing as time went by. I don’t know any honest writers that haven’t said the same. I said honeast as there are some that believe they have had it all right from the start and those I personally don’t want to read what they have to say as I believe they are of very big egos and liars.
His story is very common among Christian writers especially since they write in faith instead of known facts. Even those so well followed today might change some tomorrow and believe differently from what they write, believe and follow today. WE must keep that in mind when we read their writings and live by what we feel is the right way. Its wrong to quote older books authors as the absolute truth as they will not be standing beside you on judgment day to help you explain why you did or didn’t do or believe. Use your own head!
Writing and influencing others, sometimes in error although innocently is still influencing and that is why so many do not write as they just might be held accountable for their writings influence and same goes for their preaching and teachings.
We all should pray for forgiveness for anyone we have led astray in error through our ignorance at the time or simply bad understanding. No telling how many are influenced into error by our comments on these boards much less on books we write. Heck, I even worry about error in conversations much less if I wrote a book.
I do believe God will allow us that leeway since our intentions are good. I sure pray that is so especially for those that have taken the absolute position “do as I say or be lost”.
Thank you AJ, Very true, and very well said . When it comes to the word of God, I believe our learning process should be much longer than our teaching career , and I don’t believe they should run concurrently. I believe church elders should be just that, the elder settled believers in the congregation. No one can teach the truth, while still on the search for that truth.
“No one can teach the truth, while still on the search for that truth.” So, once you satisfy yourself that you know what you are talking about, you can stop searching and start teaching. Umm, yeah.
I am so glad that Jesus is The Truth. All of us still “see as through a glass, darkly” and none of us “know as we are known”.
Larry asked “How about your experience have you ever had a comparable experience?”
I assume Larry is speaking of the jubilant feeling Jay described when he finally was told by his teacher, whatever it was that Jay took as freedom from obedience to God the creator.
No Larry I have never felt free from God, I prefer to feel freed from sin, and a slave to God.
Charles, it has always struck me as strange that we will place people in charge of our children’s souls, that are less settled than their math teacher. Or even less settled than their track coach.
I can just see someone applying for track coach at Mineral Wells High, saying give me a chance, I’m still learning, but we can learn together. I am pretty sure they would be told come back when you are through learning, and ready to teach.
Charles said; “I am so glad that Jesus is The Truth.” Charles am I wrong when I say Jesus told God, “I have completed the task you sent me to do” What do you think about the bible, do you think the bible is incomplete, if so why did Jesus bother to send a spiritual messenger to comfort the apostles who wrote the gospel that Jesus spoke (in person) to them. Do you think the message in the bible is sufficient to save a soul (if followed). Since Jesus was described as the word of God, and he is quoted in the New Testament, repeatedly . How could there be a need for further knowledge to be saved? I know you are among those who depend on the “holy ghost” that indwells you for your salvation. I depend on the “holy ghost” that indwelled the writers of the scriptures. I have never read where you said you were led to go contrary to the written gospel. And I have never felt that I needed to go farther. So what do you see the bible as, a good start, or complete.?
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Laymond, your terminology frames the subject, and it frames it wrongly. Jesus has indeed completed the salvific work he accomplished on the cross; it will never be done again. But Jesus is not dead, nor retired. No, he is seated as Lord of Heaven and Earth, he reigns in us and over us. He remains The Way, The Truth, and The Life. Jesus is still giving eternal life to men and women every day. He is still the shepherd spoken of by the psalmist. He still says “Follow me” to mankind, and many of us do so. None of these roles have been superceded by a book. At least, no one who wrote in that book says so.
Jesus is the Word of God; the bible is words from God. The bible does not save us; Jesus does. Jesus was saving people long before we compiled the NT canon. To address your suggestion that we need no more than the Bible because one finds within the bible the way to eternal life… well, the information one needs about to have eternal life can be found in John 5. If our criteria is to limit ourselves to “what is needed for salvation”, then the rest of the NT is not “needed”. Fortunately, for most of us “what is needed for salvation” is only the beginning of a life in Christ. Salvation is the introduction to being in Christ, not the ending, and most certainly it is not the whole life. We need what we find in scripture, and to walk out our lives as the sons of God, we need to be led by the Spirit of God. Those who believe that the Spirit of God is actually and fully “contained” within the boundaries of the pages of that Thomas Nelson publication on their coffee table have a woefully tiny God.
As to being “complete”, this is not a claim the Bible makes for itself, so I see no reason to make that claim for it. You will have to investigate the Roman Catholic counsels at Hippo or Trent or Nicea if you are looking for the origins of that claim. God reveals himself in the scripture, but that is not the limit of God revealing himself.
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As to the teaching business in Mineral Wells, if that coaching candidate told the school board he knew all there was to know about running track, no one would believe him. And if that preaching candidate at Mineral Wells CoC said he knew all there is to know about God, well, nobody would even listen to him. The elders would certainly never let him near a pulpit.
And with good reason. We are still learning. We are still growing in grace and in knowledge. All except those who have stopped. A tree that has stopped growing is dead.
Charles, what have you discovered say within the last month about God that would astonish the world if you were so kind as to divulge it to the rest of us. I am not talking about “new stuff” I am talking about changing your mind after claiming to be qualified to guide others in their religious journey. I believe Jesus said the way is straight and narrow, not wide and zigzagging, nor retreating to take a different road. When you take on the job as teacher make sure you know what you are talking about. I never once saw where Jesus, or his hand picked apostles said hold up, I have changed my mind. Most times when a teacher changes their mind it is because they like something someone else said, another human “hey that sounds better” most often when we are led astray “it sounds better”.
If we are honest, we all have to admit to being a little more fallible than the Apostles. They were given a task and they were gifted to complete the task they were called to do. We are called now to continue the part about reconciliation, but let’s don’t think that we need or must have the exact measure of gifting that the Apostles needed or had. We don’t need to record accurately what Jesus did some 30 years or so after the fact, among other things, as they did. That in no way implies that we don’t need the Spirit, for He aides us in our transformation(sanctification)among other things.
Monty said, “If we are honest, we all have to admit to being a little more fallible than the Apostles ”
Not only that Monty, they had the comforter that God sent them at Jesus request, to remind them of what Jesus had said to them. Don’t you think that was a great help when writing those words down, so that people across time could enjoy, and learn of the time Jesus spent here on earth, yes the apostles were different, they didn’t need to read about that time, they were part of it. I don’t believe anyone alive today were so blessed.
Laymond, In your responses to Charles you seem to indicate that we don’t continue to learn more about God or Jesus. Perhaps I misunderstood. Seems to me that us finite beings will need eternity to grasp the grandeur of our creator. And since we are fallible, we always will hold misunderstandings about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible. Since my conversion in 1974 I have continually be learning new things and have more than once changed my understanding. That hasn’t kept me from being a teacher in church but it keeps me more humble.
Skip, do you teach with this caveat ? “this lesson could change, depending upon what I believe at the time” . In my opinion it should.
” That hasn’t kept me from being a teacher in church but it keeps me more humble.” Skip it is not all about the teacher, what about the students you taught wrongly, how do you ease your conscience , by saying they have the same opportunity to change that I did.
When you are in the midst of learning math, and you are failing, you don’t teach math.
I can teach arithmetic without understanding calculus
Laymond, If a teacher has to have a perfect understanding of the entire Bible, then the only one qualified is Jesus. Surely you aren’t claiming you are a perfect teacher with infallible understanding. I don’t want teachers who are no longer students themselves.
I guess that this idea that we are more fallible than the apostles is new to me. I did not know that fallibility had degrees. It seems to me either we are fallible –that is, imperfect and subject to error– or we are not fallible. Like Jesus. It’s like being pregnant, either you are or you are not. The only people I know who teach apostolic infallibility are the Roman Catholics, and that for their current “apostle”, the Pope. I can understand one fellow being more wise or more noble than his brother, but “more fallible”?
Could someone explain exactly how non-apostles are “more fallible” than apostles, and where this idea originates? Thanks.
Skip said, ” Surely you aren’t claiming you are a perfect teacher with infallible understanding. ”
You are absolutely right Skip, I don’t claim any sort of thing, I don’t even claim to be a teacher, I let Jesus do that through his word, and his apostles writings. I do try to guide my family in their understanding of the scriptures, only because I am a more rigorous student.
Charles, I know you teach that you are on equal footing with the apostles, that you have the same comforter and teacher they had, so the following scripture won’t impress you much.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
But until I see your name among the twelve I remain very impressed. Charles I know you teach salvation is a free gift, I to believe God gave of his grace freely to all, but I think there is work involved in rewards in Heaven.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Charles what tribe were you promised to be judge over? If you notice Jesus said twelve thrones, I am afraid that leaves you without a throne just like the rest of us.
Laymond, I remind myself that every paragraph you spend on me is one less you spend on somebody else. And that makes me feel pretty good.
Laymond said, “You are absolutely right Skip, I don’t claim any sort of thing, I don’t even claim to be a teacher, I let Jesus do that through his word, and his apostles writings. I do try to guide my family in their understanding of the scriptures, only because I am a more rigorous student.”
This statement is odd since over the months you have tried to school many of us. You could have fooled me that you haven’t been trying to teach. Any time you make any point outside of a direct scripture quote you are trying to teach/influence others on this blog. So it is disingenuous to say you aren’t teaching.
Teaching is one of the gifts/roles mentioned in Ephesians. And the teachers in Ephesus weren’t the Apostles. Therefore God expects a small percentage of the body of Christ to be teachers. Teachers aren’t required to be infallible. I presume you don’t deny that.
While I am saved by the grace of God, I would never wish to be judged against an apostle like Paul or Peter, or the like. While they are fallible, and I (we)are fallible, I hold them in high esteem. They were by-in-large given the responsibility of the transmission of the gospel, both orally and in their inspired writings. The Spirit speaking through them made their teachings infallible(ours not so much).They, through inspiration, spoke and wrote what they were given by the Spirit. That’s not to say, they understood everything perfectly. Peter said, “Paul wrote some things that were hard to understand.” If Paul were to somehow walk among us today, who would be so bold as to consider their teaching and understanding of the scripture or their gifting of the Spirit to be on par with Paul’s (Speak now or forever hold your peace). Peter and the rest were mere humans and subject to sin as we are, Paul had to chastise Peter as you’ll recall. But when it came to what they taught, I don’t think any of them ever had to remodel what they taught at a later date.(We often do) That is where(I believe) they were without error. The subject matter where this train of thought originated pertained to our present day ability to teach.
Skip, I think you might search long and hard, and not find where I gave salvation advise, except through recommending biblical scripture. I look at Jay’s comments section, as just that a comments or opinion board, not a teaching tool. And I certainly don’t feel qualified to teach ANYONE who comments on this board. I have differences of opinion with most here, but I am not under any illusion that I will enlighten or change any minds. I do feel that I should speak up when I read some of the things here, so it won’t be mistakenly taken, that I agree with what has been written.
I take it that is what Jay is asking for when he asks for a comment. I am only trying to give a clear view of my beliefs, not trying to change yours.
Laymond,
In this explanation about your comments, it seems that you are participating in a useless hobby. Which has no intended purpose. I mean you admit that you don’t expect anyone to learn from your comments (of course I do notice that you have placed a certain importance on the scriptures you have quoted pertaining to your interpretation of a specific subject) and exclaim that you are convinced that no one commenting will be able to teach you anything.
I will totally disagree with your reference to the avenue of the learning and teaching while reading and commenting on this blog.
Johnny wrote,
Excellent point. And I can teach calculus and not understand all of calculus. It’s a big subject with unending implications. To have perfect knowledge of calculus would literally require the mind of God. See the brilliant Incompleteness Theorem by Kurt Gödel demonstrating that there are infinite mathematical truths than cannot be proven or disproven.
I believe everyone here knows exactly what I mean when I say we should have a settled belief before we try to convince another person that our belief is the correct one. mathematical truths have been settled for a long time, and the truth of the word of God has been settled forever.
Even if there are infinite mathematical truths than cannot be proven or disproven. That in itself is a settled truth, a known fact.
Laymond, Actually there are many mathematical truths and axioms and postulates that have not ever been settled by humans. But that doesn’t mean we should have no more math teachers. I have settled beliefs on Arminianism and in the last 5 years have been pointed to scriptures on the Calvanistic side that are revising my views. When I teach now there is a growing humility because I know I don’t understand everything in scripture. I don’t like sitting under smug teachers who claim they understand all of God’s will.
Skip, believe it or not, just because I am a Texan doesn’t mean I was deprived of an education.
I worked for a petroleum engineering firm, in Midland Texas a few years before I started my on company. I say this only to let you know I probably know more about math, than religion.
I don’t know of any math lessons Jesus taught, but the lessons he did teach are far more important to our eternal being than any college degree we can receive here.
As far as teaching biblical facts, we might try this one on.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Laymond, You and I might have a similar education. I got my advanced degrees in engineering at Ohio State and have taught at several universities and worked for Boeing, SAIC, and several other companies. Unfortunately I can’t figure out how to retire. Like you, I understand that our understanding of science and engineering keep evolving though the same laws of physics have always existed. We are merely students gradually learning more and more about God’s creation. Even though I have limited knowledge, I still teach in church and at a university. I don’t think an imperfect understanding precludes me or you from teaching. We just have to teach with the proviso that we don’t have a perfect understanding and that what we teach is our best understanding at what the Bible is saying. This engenders in the students the mindset that they can’t take the stand that they “have arrived” in their understanding. The error of the CoC in the past was to present ourselves as having mastered all of God’s will.
That being said, are you invoking Jeremiah 31 to suggest that there are no more teachers or simply that everyone can now know the Lord? Ephesians says there are still teachers. (Ephesians 4:11 So Christ himself gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers). I Timothy says elders should be teachers. (1 Timothy 3:2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach). Paul also instructs Timothy that others in the church can teach (2 Timothy 2:2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.)
Someone a lot smarter than I will ever be said, “The more i learn, the more i realize how much i don’t know”. What scares me as i read these comments, is the idea that I can know it all. Paul seems to say we will never understand everything, lots of stuff is out of focus or dim. So the more I learn the more I teach, the more I understand how much more there is to learn. I am seeing more clearly than ever, what Paul meant when he said “Knowledge puffs up”. I wonder if anyone ever overestimates how much they really know? I teach every week in our church, the most important lesson i have learned, is there is lots more for me to learn. I haven’t scratched the surface.
laymond,
Jesus could count to two I know for sure. When asked what was the most important he gave love for God and fellow man as 1st and 2nd.
The apostles and others that taught were great men chosen for their work and even with the Spirit guiding, they still were and are even today hard to understand as we see on this site and others where arguing, confusion, condemning and debating continues.
If I had to pick which human in the old testament or new I would most want to be, none of the apostles would get my vote nor any other of the teachers from back then or today mentioned on this site.
I would choose the thief on the cross !!!
Philip Sims,
I think you’ll enjoy tomorrow’s post, which is very much along the lines of your comment. Thanks.
Jay,
You wrote earlier “My position in Born of Water is mainly different from HSRG in that I came to believe God accepts flawed baptisms.” I think a key word in that statement is “flawed “. That’s exactly what it is! If a baptism is flawed then it can’t be acceptable. Just because you might have changed the way you look at it doesn’t mean that God has changed. In 1 Samuel 15 King Saul had good intentions when he saved the best of the flocks for sacrifices. However, that’s not what God told him to do. Saul’s “flawed” obedience to offer sacrifices to God led to his rejection as king. Flawed baptisms will not cover you with God’s grace. They just get you wet.
Hey, I am flawed and I am acceptable to God!
Philip said, “What scares me as i read these comments, is the idea that I can know it all.”
I think you can rest easy, I don’t know anyone who expects, anyone to know everything.
But that said we should be able to expect a teacher to know what they teach, without fearing it will change next week, month, or even next year.
JP,
That is why all who were baptized into denominational churches must be rebaptized properly by having the one doing the baptizing saying these words before going under “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of your sins”. Upon coming up out of the water, that person would be added to the church of Christ by God and be sinless, wiped clean.
Being baptised to join a church is flawed and having it done over is required. Same if a hand or any part of the body not going under is being flawed and of none effect.
That is why hands should be folded in front to keep that from happening and women with long hair should have it braided or tied down to the body somehow as it floating instead of going under has been debated for years whether it required being rebaptised or not. Many churches require a watchman standing in the wings to observe these things just to make sure nothing is flawed and a person is hell bound because of the flaw.
JP wrote,
He then argues regarding the sin of Saul, the first king of Israel —
First, I notice the absence of any biblical test that contradicts what I said with respect to baptism. And there are dozens of verses that promise salvation to “everyone who believes” or in similar terms state that faith in Jesus is sufficient to save. I conclude that God will keep his many, many promises to save those with faith in Jesus (“faith” being defined as I’ve described here in several recent posts, that is, as including trust and faithfulness, as is true both of the Greek definition of pistis and how the NT writers speak of “faith.”)
Second, I think you misread the account regarding Saul. Samuel specifically instructed Saul to kill the flocks and the Amalekites (1 Sam 15:3). Saul violated a known command delivered by a prophet of God. This does not constitute “good intentions.” It’s arrogance — to presume to be wiser than God.
Saul was so proud of himself that he erected a monument to himself! Not to God and not in honor of his army and their sacrifice but to himself. The author of 1 Samuel surely includes this detail to further demonstrate that the heart of Saul was far from God.
Samuel declares to Saul as the word of God —
(1Sa 15:23 ESV) 23 “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.”
God himself accused Saul of rebellion and presumption — and rejecting the word of the LORD. And so it’s just not true that “Saul had good intentions.” He did not.
Obviously, if someone were to be baptized in error in violation of the known will of God, that baptism would not work because that person would not be penitent. In fact, he would lack faith because he lacks faithfulness. He would be in the same condition as the demons who in some sense “believe” but who don’t follow Jesus.
But I know of not a single instance of someone asking for baptism in known violation of God’s will. It is surely a very rare circumstance. In fact, those who are baptized choose to do so to honor their understanding of God’s will — that is, their hearts are faithful and penitent but they have been poorly instructed regarding baptism.
You see, we don’t require perfect repentance, or else those who are baptized would never sin again.
We don’t require perfect faith, or else those who are baptized would be able to move mountains. They would never suffer a moment of doubt in their lives.
So why require a perfect baptism? Why allow grace for an imperfect repentance and for an imperfect faith and not for an imperfect baptism? Which is more important to God? You faith and repentance? Or how punctiliously your baptism was performed?
The Greek and Roman pagans worshipped false gods, and they were convinced that their gods cared most about the precision with which their ceremonies were performed. They believed that a flawed ritual would bring the wrath of the gods. But they were pagans who believed in gods that had no moral standards and cared nothing about the hearts of those who worshipped them.
But the God of the Jews is not like that. Rather, he says things like,
Plainly, the state of our hearts are far more important to God than our baptisms — and yet some want to treat baptism as more important than changed hearts by declaring that grace is not available for baptismal error — as though baptism is too important to be the subject of grace.
And yet Paul argues in Gal 3 and Rom 4 that we are saved by God’s covenant with Abraham — to treat as righteous those who come to him with faith. And there’s no mention of baptism in God’s covenant with Abraham. The heart of our salvation is faith in Jesus (which includes faithfulness and trust — changed hearts), not a ritual — despite the preciousness of the ritual.
None of this is to dismiss baptism as irrelevant or unnecessary. Rather, we just need to follow the scriptures and treat faith as central to our salvation and not replace faith with baptism. We just need to get our priorities right.
More importantly, we need to get right our understanding of the character of God. God wants us to be saved so much that he gave his one and only Son to die for us. He is not going to damn someone who comes to him with genuine faith in Jesus and penitence but who was taught, as a novice, flawed baptismal theology. We don’t ask our converts to confess their position on 20 baptism issues. We only ask about their faith in Jesus, because a genuine faith in Jesus is sufficient.
Imagine that you and your wife are in an orphanage considering adopting several children. You want children who are obedient and so you ask each child to clean up his room to learn about the hearts of the children. One child was distracted when you gave your instruction through not fault of his own. He asks another child what he is required to do, and the other child tells him to make up his bed. He gladly makes up his bed but doesn’t clean his room.
You know all of this. Is the child who made up his bed but didn’t clean his room obedient? Or do you refuse to adopt the child because of his rebellious, impenitent heart?
A teacher who believes he has it all figured out is a leader who will eventually lead the masses astray. Humble leaders are God’s normal choice.
Laymond wrote
I marvel that Jay can assure us that baptism is NOT essential while faith in Jesus IS essential for salvation. Every mention of salvation by faith is pointing to the fact that without faith it is impossible to please God. Not a single mention of faith implies in any way that faith ALONE saves. Faith causes us to obey the one in whom we have faith. James makes clear that faith alone is dead. I note many comments here which claim that faith alone saves. How foolish is such a claim!
(Matthew 5:22) – “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”