Death
(Rom 5:12-13 ESV) 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned — 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
“Death” entered the world through Adam. Some say that animals did not die before Adam, which is why God did not allow them to be eaten. But this, of course, means that the Tyrannosaurus Rex ate Brussels sprouts and passed on the roast beef. It’s really hard to imagine. In fact, the fossil record does not reveal any time when there were no carnivores and no death among animals. If there were no deaths, there’d be no fossils!
For that matter, it’s hard to imagine a world without death. Today flies live about 10 days. If flies don’t die soon, well, they reproduce really fast. We’d sure have a lot of flies. Our bodies protect us from infection by killing bacteria and viruses. A world in which germs cannot die would be a truly awful world in which to live. (And, yes, we have fossils of ancient bacteria and viruses.)
So maybe there were no disease-causing bacteria before sin, but what about the bacteria that live in our guts — the pro-biotic bacteria essential to human digestion. If those bugs never die, we humans would be very sick indeed. And can you imagine the overpopulation problems if animals never die but continue to reproduce?
In reality, the “death” Paul speaks of is not physical death but eternal death.
(Rom 5:17 ESV) 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
If we were studying Romans in a Romans class, rather than looking for proof texts to embarrass the evolutionists, we’d immediately recognize that the context is not about physical death, because Jesus did not rescue us from physical death. People, even Christians, still die.
(Rom 5:18 ESV) 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
One trespass led to death and to “condemnation.” Therefore, Jesus’ sacrifice leads to justification and life. Justification defeats our condemnation. Life defeats death — but it doesn’t defeat physical death, just the Second Death, eternal death. That is replaced with eternal life.
Some commentators speak of “spiritual death.” I have no idea what that means unless it means “damned,” which is possible. But “damned” means that person will die, suffer punishment, and then die the Second Death (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 14; 21:8) [1].
Another possibility is that someone might die and suffer the Second Death with no hope of heaven and without any kind of punishment. That is, they just die, go to neither heaven nor hell, and will never be resurrected. This seems to be the fate of pre-Moses people.
(Rom 5:12-14 ESV) 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned — 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
“Death reigned from Adam to Moses” even though “sin is not counted where there is no law.” Hence, no salvation (“death reigned,” which is the opposite of “life” = eternal life) and no punishment (“sin is not counted”). People just died with no eternal existence, good or bad, before Moses. There were some exceptions, of course – Enoch and Abraham, for example, but Paul is speaking in generalities to a largely Gentile congregation.
(Act 17:30-31 ESV) 30 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
God overlooked the ignorance of those outside the Law, but that doesn’t mean that murderers and rapists went to heaven. Everyone just died, with only rare exceptions.
Hence, Adam’s sin meant no promise of immortality to all of humanity. In Christ, we will all die, but eternity is promised to the followers of Jesus. (Other passages speak to the fate of faithful Jews.)
He may refer to physical death only, since “death” in v. 14 seems to have this meaning. But the passage goes on to contrast death with eternal life (v. 21). Moreover, in vv. 16 and 18 Paul uses “condemnation” in the same way that he uses death here. These points suggest that Paul may refer here to “spiritual” death: the estrangement from God that is a result of sin and that, if not healed through Christ, will lead to “eternal” death. In fact, however, we are not forced to make a choice between these options. Paul frequently uses “death” and related words to designate a “physico-spiritual entity”—”total death,” the penalty incurred for sin.32 Here, then, Paul may focus on physical death as the evidence, the outward manifestation of this total death; or, better, he may simply have in mind this death in both its physical and spiritual aspects.
Douglas Moo, NICNT, The Epistle to the Romans.
But what about —
(Gen 2:16-17 ESV) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Well, this says nothing about animals dying — or anyone else. God was speaking to Adam — and he really did die, of old age. So either he was immortal until he sinned or else God was speaking of eternal death — damnation. It seems harsh for God to damn Adam for a single sin, and so most conclude he forfeited immortality. I’m inclined to agree.
(1Co 15:21-22 ESV) 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Again, we still die. We just don’t stay dead. Adam was immortal. He had eternal life – and he gave that up – so that mankind ceased to be innately immortal. We now only become immortal by God’s grace.
(Rom 2:7 ESV) to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
(1Co 15:53 ASV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Ti 6:16 NET) [God] alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.
The death that came by Adam was fixed by Jesus. Therefore, Adam’s sin produced eternal death — physical death accompanied by spiritual death. Jesus fixed the most important part of that, spiritual death. He gives resurrection and immortality to his people.
Genealogies
But if we realize that genealogies in the Bible often skip generations, then we can move these events back in history, and there really is no limit. Jesus is called the “son of David” even though Jesus was born 1,000 years after David’s death!
A very strong argument for this will be found at this link, thanks to Hugh Ross, an Old Earth Creationist and geologist who ministers within the Churches of Christ.
The interval [from Joseph’s brother entering Egypt to Moses] is only abridged by a genealogy extending from Levi to Moses and Aaron and their contemporaries among their immediate relatives (Exod. 6:16-26). This genealogy records the length of each man’s life in the principal line of descent, viz., Levi (v. 16), Kohath (v. 18), Amram (v. 20). The correspondence in the points just indicated with the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11, and the periods which they cover, is certainly remarkable. And as they proceeded from the same pen, we may fairly infer from the similarity of construction a similarity of design. Now it has been shown already that the genealogy from Levi to Moses cannot have recorded all the links in that line of descent, and that it could not, therefore, have been intended to be used as a basis of chronological computation.
But how do we deal with the curse of Genesis 3?
____________________________
[1] As I’ve taught here frequently, I’m a conditionalist, that is, as taught by Edward Fudge, I’m convinced that God’s punishment for the damned is finite. There is no purgatory. Rather, God metes out perfectly just punishment for the damned, and the damned then die the Second Death — they eternally cease to exist, that is, they suffer eternal death. See The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment.
This does not change the outcome of the analysis of the “death” passages, only how the outcome is expressed.
1.
GEN
3:4 The serpent said to the woman, “Surely you will not die,11 3:5 for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open12 and you will be like divine beings who know13 good and evil.”14
2.
3:22 And the Lord God said, “Now64 that the man has become like one of us,65 knowing66 good and evil, he must not be allowed67 to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
ya might want to think on this with romans
1.
Rom
1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people43 are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts44 were darkened.
2.
ROM
22 2:10 but23 glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek. 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 2:12 For all who have sinned apart from the law24 will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous.25 2:14 For whenever the Gentiles,26 who do not have the law, do by nature27 the things required by the law,28 these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
ROM
3:25 God publicly displayed30 him31 at his death32 as the mercy seat33
1. righteous Able
accessible through faith.34 This was to demonstrate35 his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.36
2.the new creation
3:26 This was37 also to demonstrate38 his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just39 and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.40
Hebrews 11
People Commended for Their Faith
11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 11:2 For by it the people of old1 received God’s commendation.2 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds3 were set in order at God’s command,4 so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.5 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith6 he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith7 he still speaks, though he is dead. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God. 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
The whole of 1 Corinthians 15 is about the physical resurrection of Christ, who was physically dead.
1 Corinthians 15:21 makes it very clear that the death Adam brought was contrasted with the physical Resurrection brought by the Last Adam, “For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.” If the curse on Adam was only about spiritual death, then Jesus only needed to rise spiritually.
1 Timothy 6:16 states that God ‘who alone has immortality’. Here the Greek text is saying that God alone possesses everlasting undyingness, it is saying immortality is part of His essence. This passage does not speak against the beginning of creation in the garden before Adam’s sin brought death.
The warning God spoke to Adam was, Genesis 2:17 “For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” After Adam sinned the judgement God gives shows that Adam’s punishment was not just spiritual death, but there was the curse of physical death spoken upon him. The judgment of God was spoken upon him, the curse of death came to their bodies and the process of death and decay began.
Genesis 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Returning to the dust can mean only physical death, and there would be no point to this punishment unless there was no physical death before.
Rom
4:12 And he is also the father of the circumcised,20 who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham possessed when he was still uncircumcised.21
4:13 For the promise22 to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 4:14 For if they become heirs by the law, faith is empty and the promise is nullified.23 4:15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression24 either.
Just Death
Not LIFE
Rom 5
1.
30 so too through the one righteous act31 came righteousness leading to life
5:18 Consequently,26 just as condemnation27 for all people28 came29 through one transgression,30 so too through the one righteous act31 came righteousness leading to life32 for all people. 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man33 many34 were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man35 many36 will be made righteous.
2.
scripture imprisoned48 everything and everyone49 under sin
gal
3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God?46 Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.47 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned48 everything and everyone49 under sin so that the promise could be given – because of the faithfulness50 of Jesus Christ – to those who believe
The promise of a New Heavens and a New Earth meant a restoration of this created order to the Jews. So creation during the days of Eden had to be perfect(also called Paradise).
A consequence of not believing God’s word , and transgressing that word was on that day you will surely Die.
it is the same penalty for all humanity, also humanity lost access to the tree of life and physically die.
also lost the innocence and pleasure of god’s constant Spiritual Communion.on that day of separation.
Humanity is without excuse, ether practice GOOD or practice Evil
“but sin is not counted where there is no law”
But they had the law of conscience or nature to abide by and failed.
I believe the death spoken of by Paul is both spiritual and physical death. When God warns Adam “On that day you will surely die”, “day” should not be taken literally any more then the 6 days of creation. Or God’s sustaining presence(to counter-act the second law of thermodynamics) was withdrawn-causing Adam and Eve and the universe to age. However, it took awhile for the affects to fully wear off(perhaps 30-194K).
R.J.
Gen
3:22 And the Lord God said, “Now64 that the man has become like one of us,65 knowing66 good and evil,
indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath14 even as the rest…
Eph
2:1 And although you were1 dead2 in your transgressions and sins, 2:2 in which3 you formerly lived4 according to this world’s present path,5 according to the ruler of the kingdom6 of the air, the ruler of7 the spirit8 that is now energizing9 the sons of disobedience,10 2:3 among whom11 all of us12 also13 formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath14 even as the rest…15
Rom
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people39 who suppress the truth by their40 unrighteousness,41 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them,42
Christ came to die in full payment for our sins upon the cross. Death is the penalty for sin, and Christ had to pay that penalty of death for all mankind in full. Christ’s death paid the penalty for our sins as He laid down His life to die.
If physical death is not tied to Adam’s sin, then life is not tied to Christ’s physical death and resurrection, and the Christian faith is all in vain.
Death is the punishment for sin, and that is precisely the price Christ paid in our place.
Hebrews 2:5 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
* Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1:1 From Paul,1 a slave2 of Christ Jesus,3 called to be an apostle,4 set apart for the gospel of God.5 1:2 This gospel6 he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant7 of David with reference to the flesh,8 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power9 according to the Holy Spirit10 by the resurrection11 from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1.b
descendant7 of David with reference to the flesh,8 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power9 according to the Holy Spirit10 by the resurrection11 from the dead
1.
These two scripture begg the question.
HOW DID or better WHY DID… Jesus wind up in the abode of the dead separated from god.
which is the truth until the curse of the law and sin are overcome by the power of god and the Spirit.
2:27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,52
nor permit your Holy One to experience53 decay.
also
Acts 2:31-33
2:24 But God raised him up,46 having released47 him from the pains48 of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power.49 2:25 For David says about him,
‘I saw the Lord always in front of me,50
for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken.
2:26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced;
my body51 also will live in hope,
2:27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,52
nor permit your Holy One to experience53 decay.
2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of joy with your presence.’54
2:29 “Brothers,55 I can speak confidently56 to you about our forefather57 David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 2:30 So then, because58 he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants59 on his throne,60 2:31 David by foreseeing this61 spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,62 that he was neither abandoned to Hades,63 nor did his body64 experience65 decay.66 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it.67 2:33 So then, exalted68 to the right hand69 of God, and having received70 the promise of the Holy Spirit71 from the Father, he has poured out72 what you both see and hear. 2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my lord,
“Sit73 at my right hand
2:35 until I make your enemies a footstool74 for your feet.”’75
and of course i am alive,butt a new relationship has been acquired with the Father and his Spirit.
the Spirit of God lives in me because of Christ’s faithfulness and god’s promise of the blessing of life through the
righteousness of “faith in him”.
6:2 Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.1
6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection.2 6:6 We know that3 our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us,4 so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 6:7 (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)5
6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 6:9 We know6 that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die7 again; death no longer has mastery over him. 6:10 For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. 6:11 So you too consider yourselves8 dead to sin, but9 alive to God in Christ Jesus.
but there is really only ONE LIFE.
4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
4:1 I, therefore, the prisoner for the Lord,1 urge you to live2 worthily of the calling with which you have been called,3 4:2 with all humility and gentleness,4 with patience, bearing with5 one another in love, 4:3 making every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
blessings
Jay wrote: “Adam was immortal. He had eternal life – and he gave that up – so that mankind ceased to be innately immortal.”
Jay, where is it written that Adam was immortal? As long as he had access to the tree of life, he would not die – but does that mean he was immortal? Paul clearly states the God alone is immortal – until the mortal puts on immortality as the gift of God as he gives Eternal Life.
Jerry,
I agree that man is not innately immortal and that immortality is a gift of God. But the Tree of Life gives the gift of immortality so long as God lets us eat of it. That’s why it’s in the New Heavens and New Earth.
Is this human body that we now live in an image of God?
God did not lie about death in his message to Adam. (Gen 2:16-17 ESV) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” He did not live as he was until his physical death many years later, The death that God was referring to was the separation of the dwelling of God with him (God cannot dwell where sin is). Later in the Law there is a procedure required by the anyone, no exceptions, for the approach by any of The Levitical Tribe to the presence of God.
There is no record of the instructions given to Adam or any of his offspring as to any procedures they were to perform as they communicated with God, but Cain and Able were being held accountable for actions they were offering to God. Noticing that, if they were not given instructions why were they even involved in the actions described, and even more questionable why did God see Cain’s actions out of order?
This separation continued until Christ created the means or bridge for all mankind to be reconnected to God through the born again process being born into the family of God. Until this event no man was a member of God’s family. The action of Christ was retroactive back to all who had been faithful to God, Adam through Christ.
In the passage the tree of life is representative of physical life, the tree would have kept the physical body from death, death of the physical body was insured when he was not allowed to eat of the tree of life. Prior to his sin and the banishing from the garden there was no command that he could not eat of the tree, in fact he was told that he had full access to all but the tree of knowledge. Physical death was a secondary effect from the sin.
Larry, no this body we have is not the image the bible speaks of.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (even this scripture has a misstatement in it, not by a long way did Jesus do it by himself)
There is only one Human being that has obtained that “express image” Jesus. We have hopes of doing what Jesus has already done, that is why we follow him.
Larry Cheek asked,
If God winds up looking like me, I’m going to be seriously — SERIOUSLY — disappointed.
Too literal. How can a physical, tangible human be an image of a God made of spirit? Well, you have to rethink “image” in functional rather than physical terms.
If I ask you to represent me in the nation of England, what must I know about you? Well, not how you look. But how you think and act — and whether you are very loyal to me and my principles and ideals — and will advocate for what I think is important at any cost. Right? That’s the idea.
As Wright pointed out, it’s about the mission or story or purpose to be served by Adam and Eve, not their innocence or perfect physicality. And that forces us to think about things VERY differently.
Jay,
Your explanation is almost the conclusion that I have believed. The one factor that I see not addressed is that the image being the Spirit that dwells within us. In birth we have that Spirit, possibly as Adam had when first created, but as we make choices as he did the same result of his actions becomes our separation from the creator, therefore being born again is the process applied to the restoration of that Spirit. If we chose not to submit to being borne again, we will remain forever in damnation, separated from God’s Grace.
I am not sure I see the reason we should think we are entitled to eternal life at birth. That is what is implied by the old “age of accountability” idea, the idea that at some point in our youth, we lose eternal life and must then regain it. It is a pleasant picture in some ways, but the underlying assumption is never established in scripture, at least as far as I have heard it discussed. It is predicated on our own concepts of guilt and innocence and culpability more than in something scripture reveals.
Inheriting sin is also contrary to scripture. We weren’t born in sin any more then Job took care of orphans from his mothers womb.
RJ wrote,
Is someone teaching to the contrary here?
Charles,
I don’t have time to look it up, but several times I’ve cited the scriptures in which the Law declares 20 the age of accountability — which is very similar to modern law which treats minors differently than adults for many purposes. (Search under “age of accountability”.)
The mistake we make is conflating the age of accountability with the age of faith. Someone may come to saving faith long before becoming accountable. I mean, why do they have to be the same.
Larry,
Let me suggest a few refinements to your thinking.
First, “spirit” refers either to the substance God is made of, the Holy Spirit (made of the same stuff, I would think), or the life force in humans and animals. It’s not eternal. When we die, we “give up the spirit.”
When we are born, we are innocent and therefore free from any possible punishment by God. Being born again gives the Holy Spirit — and then we have both —
It’s the Holy Spirit that makes us spiritual beings and new creations and brings immortality.
In short, it’s really more about relationship with God than possession of the Spirit/spirit. Everyone has a spirit – until they die. Those with the Spirit will die but be resurrected because the Spirit is the means by which God begets us — just like Jesus. We aren’t the Messiah, and he is still our king, and we are more like our big brother than we often realize.
Jay,
I guess that one of us misunderstood a portion of what the other said. It has been my understanding through out the years of study that, once we are born again that this body will continue to live until the physical body and physical life separate, death, but a born again individual will never die, the spiritual portion of this body remains alive separate from the physical. Are you advocating that all physical bodies will die, but only those who were dedicated themselves to Christ or were (saved) while alive in the physical body will be restored to life again.
Much of this basis that I understand was what I read from Jesus.
(John 11:24 NIV) Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
(John 11:25 NIV) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
(John 11:26 NIV) and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Did Jesus make a statement here that we should not believe?