The Flood
The Flood itself was either a local flood or else God chose to leave no physical evidence of the Flood on the planet. There is no archaeological or geological evidence for a global Flood.
Obviously, God could have caused a global flood and removed all evidence, which one may believe as a matter of faith. But we have no business claiming that science supports the Flood as a global flood. It just doesn’t.
If the Flood were global, then all animal life spread across the planet from Mt. Ararat in Turkey about 2344 BC. But Egypt was a civilization long before then, as was China. And neither was interrupted by a global flood so far as is shown by archaeology. Local floods were common in Mesopotamia, and there are geologic records of some very large floods. And why would the descendants of Noah go to Egypt and restart the Egyptian civilization where it was before the Flood and do the same in China?
There are dozens of craters on Earth from asteroid collisions. Did they all happen in the last 6,000 years [1]? Look at these pictures of some of the largest ones. Regarding the one near the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico,
The impact happened roughly 65 million years ago when a comet or asteroid the size of a small city crashed (equivalent to 100 teratons [trillion tons] of TNT) on Earth and caused destructive mega-tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions around the globe.
The Chicxulub impact is widely believed to have led to the extinction of dinosaurs, because of a global firestorm or because of a dramatic and widespread greenhouse effect that caused long-term environmental changes.
And how did kangaroos make it all the way to Australia from Mt. Ararat while tigers stopped in the mainland? How did the kangaroos, platypuses, and wallabies slowly cross from Thailand to Australia, leaving none behind, while all the major carnivores refused to cross?
And how did coyotes and deer make it to North America leaving none of themselves in Asia? And ‘possums? How did they get from Ararat to North America with no ‘possums in China or Russia? And why do sloths appear in Africa and South America but not North America?
Again, as a matter of faith, God could have miraculously redistributed the animals. But that is not a scientific claim. If we want to claim that science supports our faith, we need to have scientific evidence for fairly obvious questions.
And if you study the archaeology of Native Americans, why is there no Flood and no mass extinction of all animals in 2344 BC or so, with a repopulation after the Flood? Surely that would be reflected in the bones and layers of earth on the ground?
So if it was a global flood, God removed all physical evidence of it from the face of the earth. But, of course, it could have been a local flood at a time when nearly all of humanity was affected by it. After all, the folk tales of people all over the world record a Flood. Mankind’s memory is powerfully impacted by a Flood early in human history.
It’s very common in ancient literature for “world” or “cosmos” to refer to the known world or even just the world of that person’s civilization. We see this in the New Testament —
(Col 1:5-6 ESV) Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world [kosmos] it is bearing fruit and increasing– as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
Paul used kosmos to refer to the Roman Empire. The Gospel didn’t reach Japan until 1,000 AD. It didn’t reach the Americas until the 16th Century.
Peter could be read as considering the Flood to be less than global —
(2Pe 3:6 ESV) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
And so the Flood should be understood as a local flood — a very big one — that threatened the existence of humanity — or least all God-fearing humanity. And when the last three ice ages ended (125,000,000 BC, 45,000 BC and 10,000 BC, very approximately) produced massive flooding around the world as the ice melted and seas rose.
Now, some will balk at limiting the Flood to God-fearing humanity, but Genesis supports that conclusion. In the listing of Cain’s descendants, notice —
(Gen 4:20 ESV) 20 Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock.
(Gen 4:21 ESV) 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.
(Gen 4:22 ESV) 22 Zillah also bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
If these men, descendants of Cain, died in or before the Flood, along with their followers and descendants, then in what sense are they the “father” of anything? The skills they brought to the world died in the Flood.
If someone is the “father” of a skill, he is not necessarily the physical father. His “children” would not be a matter of birth and genetics, but those influenced by him. But there has to be a real connection for the relationship to be described this way.
And so a fair reading of Cain’s lineage is that at least some of his descendants survived the Flood, making his lineage actually relevant to the readers of Genesis.
Notice also:
(Gen 6:1-2 ESV) When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
The “sons of God” were not angels (Jesus said that angels cannot marry, implying no sex) but descendants of Seth and so God worshippers. But they married women who were not followers of God — always a mistake.
(Gen 6:3-5 ESV) 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
No one is certain who the Nephilim were, but they were not dinosaurs. The account is about humans, the story of the fall of the sons of Seth — the last followers of Yahweh after he created Adam and Eve to be his image on earth.
Moreover, while in Genesis 6 it appears that the Nephilim may have died in the Flood, they show up again in Numbers 13:33 as living in the Promised Land and serving as a barrier to conquest by the Israelites. If all of mankind died in the Flood, other than Noah and his family, how do the Nephilim turn up in Palestine centuries later?
In short, while there really was a catastrophic Flood that wiped out most of Seth’s descendants, I don’t believe it was truly global, and the Bible suggests that there were survivors other than Noah’s family.
Thus, Cain’s wife could have been a human not born of Adam and Eve, and a culture of honor killings of murderers would have developed outside of Eden. Cain’s city could be populated by people other than the children of Adam and Eve — people with no relationship with God.
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[1] Creationists want to attack the theory that the Chicxulub asteroid impact is the reason for the extinction of dinosaurs. That is not my point. My point is that there is clear evidence of at least dozens and perhaps even hundreds of impact craters on the earth. There no rational basis to figure that dozens or even hundreds of asteroids hit the earth during the Flood (How would a flood attract objects from space?), and if these things hit after humans began writing, we’d have records of the vast destruction any of these would cause — and physical evidence of the destruction of human settlements. So when did they hit the earth in a Young Earth interpretation?
Craters can be distinguished from volcanoes and other similar-looking formations, such as volcanoes, by several methods.
While it is claimed that there is no geological or archaeological (redundancy here on purpose) evidence to support a flood, records from people on every continent have been discovered (something that happens through archaeology and anthropology studies). Go to this url:http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830738371/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=3489047168&ref=pd_sl_8ins7hjbge_bb.
The book is Eternity In Their Hearts, written by missionary and translation team member Don Richardson. He provides the evidence some claim does not exist.
How did you make the jump from no global flood to an inference about Cain’s wife?
“…I don’t believe it was truly global, and the Bible suggests that there were survivors other than Noah’s family.
Thus, Cain’s wife could have been a human not born of Adam and Eve…”
We can believe the Bible or we can doubt the Bible. We have that choice. I believe the Bible and appreciate those many Christians who share my faith. I sorrow to hear doubters express doubts that the Bible is accurate.
Ray, it’s not a matter of doubting the Bible, it’s a matter of interpreting what the text says through modern eyes or the eyes of the original, ancient audience. I don’t doubt the Bible, but I highly doubt certain interpretations of the Bible.
I think there may be some disagreement with the assertion that no geological record exists. There are several sources available for review. This one, while not necessarily scientific, gives as good a background as any scholarly articles I’ve read on the subject. http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html.
Furthermore, the assertion that various animals and cultural human species appear on unrelated land masses not seen in other areas is often explained rather logically by geological and environmental shifts in connecting land masses which have changed throughout the annals of time. Animals merely adapt after migration, as do humans. Attempting to explain or catalog all such events is pointless. Either one believes or does not believe in the biblical accounts. So efforts to emphatically align biblical passages through uninformed interpretations with man’s meager attempts at historical geological science are silly and in reality, heresy.
Its man that is not accurate. not the Bible.
There are over 3500 or more churches today and all believe and interpret differently from the others in some way and all think they have it right. Any of us give our opinion and the vast majority of other serious interpreters will disagree on all except for a very few things.
The problem is we, humans, try our best to make something out of the Bible that it is not intended for.
In many ways we are like the teacher saying a message to one person in a 2nd grade class and have them pass it on and so forth, one to another, throughout all the class. Interesting how different the message is when spoken by the last one.
Political and individual wants, and not wants, are injected and discarded freely by us humans.
Nature magazine reports that there is a 300,000 year gap between the dino extinction and the K/T impact later. So now it’s back to the drawing board.
Genesis 9:18 Now the sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And Ham was the father of Canaan.
Genesis 9:22-27 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him. Then he said: Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren.” And he said: “Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem, And may Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth, And may he dwell in the tents of Shem; And may Canaan be his servant.
Genesis 10:8-12 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).
The Septuagint translates that Nimrod was a giant, Genesis 10:8,9 And Chus begot Nebrod: he began to be a giant upon the earth. He was a giant hunter before the Lord God; therefore they say, As Nebrod the giant hunter before the Lord.
Nimrod was a strong and powerful man, a giant. Within a hundred years of the Flood Nimrod had become a giant.
Genesis 10:15-19 Canaan’s oldest son was Sidon, the ancestor of the Sidonians. Canaan was also the ancestor of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. The Canaanite clans eventually spread out, and the territory of Canaan extended from Sidon in the north to Gerar and Gaza in the south, and east as far as Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, near Lasha.
Genesis 10:25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
Genesis 10:25 tells us when the division of languages took place, which gives us a time marker for the Tower of Babel. Based on the ages of the patriarchs given in Genesis 11 and the timelines that can be drawn using those ages, places the time of the Tower of Babel and the division of languanges at approximately 100 to 150 years after the Flood.
The Hebrew name Peleg is the same as the Hebrew word “peleg” which means “earthquake” or “violent separation.” There was more than a simple split up of people groups, there was massive continental plate shifting going on in his days. The world was divided and the division happened not long after the Flood.
Deuteronomy 2:10 The Emim used to live in that area, a very large tribe, tall as the giants of Anakim.
Numbers 13:33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.
Of all the sons of Canaan, the Amorites are mentioned the most in the Scriptures. There is no mention of fallen angels mating with women to produce the giants that they saw after the Flood. These giants were the sons of a giant named Anak.
Anak was fathered by Arba. The four generations of Amorreus timeline are, Amorreus the father of the Amorites was a son of Canaan and a cousin of Nimrod, Caphtor and Shem’s grandson, Salah. Arba would have been born sometime between 150 and 350 years after the Flood. Arba had a son named Anak born prior to Joseph being sold into slavery or the house of Jacob going down to Egypt. The sons of Anak, who was a son of Arba were great grand sons of Amorreus who was a direct decendant of Canaan.
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you.
Deuteronomy 20:17 You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Canaan was the father of all of the “ites,” and there were a great deal of giant cousins for Nimrod to rule over.
Eve was the mother(source) of all the living.
Jubal played a harp.. so we can turn this into a discussion on the beginnings of instrumental music? LOL
The Hebrew phrase for The Garden of Eden is “hanigan Eden” which signifies an enclosed garden of delight. It might even suggest the idea of sheltering or protection(as the Hebrew term is derived from “gannat” which means to protect or defend something).
Could this mean that only the Garden was a paradise in the midst of a chaotic world? Or that Eden was simply the headquarters(temple/palace) of God’s sanctified(perfected) creation(a king’s enclosure)?
R. J. We have that today. Ever visited a mental institution? Those that know no better do not sin.
The law is for those that can understand it. That leaves a lot of us pretty safe!!!
With regard to what RJ said about dinosaur extinction, the majority of experts in the area would say that the effect of asteroids striking the earth are what finished off the dinosaurs. This conclusion is a result of several lines of evidence. I recall when the Alvarez boys first proposed it, it was thought as in interesting possibility. Since that time over 30 years ago the evidence for that has increased. However, there have always been some who have pursued the alternate explanation that prior volcanic activity was the culprit. Many would say that both played a role. And, it is recognized that even after the KT event, some species may have held on for a while longer. It is an amazing coincidence that heightened volcanic activity occurred so closely spaced in time, ie within 300,000 years of the major asteroid impacts. The difference in time between the two events with respect to us is only 0.5%. Not a big deal to me.
“The Flood itself was either a local flood or else God chose to leave no physical evidence of the Flood on the planet.”
I beg to differ. On every continent, high in the mountains, fossils can be found of sea creatures.
One of the strongest pieces of evidence for a worldwide flood is the existence of “polystrate fossils.” Such fossils are found all over the world: especially in and around coal seams. They are often in the form of fossil trees that were buried upright and which often cross multiple layers of strata such as sandstone, shale, limestone and even coal beds. They range in size from small rootlets to trees over 80 feet long.
Just because we haven’t seen evidence of a global flood may not mean there wasn’t a global flood. Perhaps the evidence is yet to be found. If the Genesis account is clearly stating a global flood then we must side with the Bible and let science catch up. Again, God says in Genesis 6-8
“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air”.
WIPE MANKIND FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH sounds like ALL mankind save Noah and his family
“So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to ALL people… I am going to destroy both them and the earth” ALL people are destroyed, not just those living near Noah.
“I will wipe from the face of the earth EVERY LIVING CREATURE I have made”. What creatures are excluded from this? Noah’s animals and fish.
“The waters rose greatly on the earth and ALL the high mountains under THE ENTIRE HEAVENS were covered. God covered ALL mountains under THE ENTIRE HEAVENS.
If we don’t believe Genesis as it is worded then we can ignore everything in the Torah. Why is the global flood not true but other events are true because scientists back us up? Are we going to cherry pick scriptures we believe only if science doesn’t contradict them? If we haven’t found evidence doesn’t mean evidence doesn’t exist.
Skip, those arguments have always kept me from readily accepting the idea of a local flood, too. Movement of tectonic plates might account for the differing animals from one continent to the next as they evolved after their separation from one another. Though I could never, in my mind, make this an article of faith that one must accept to be counted as faithful as some church writers do.
Dan, It isn’t a salvation issue but it is troubling how easily people contradict scriptures when they violate their humanistic sensibilities.
We all add to what God says.
God said “I will wipe from the face of the earth EVERY LIVING CREATURE I have made”
That literally does not have any exceptions, fish or otherwise as they all are living creatures.
If we on our own say what God really meant to say is all but those that can swim or build a boat or in someway float on water, that opens a lot of more possibilities such as swimming mammals like Porpoises, whales, ducks, cranes, water snakes, beavers and any other boat builders like humans in other places.
God said Adam was the first man on this earth God didn’t say he was the only man he created and who knows, He might of created, after Adam, one or more in several places on this old earth and who can guess where else in His big universe creation.
AJ, God did say Adam was the first man and all descended from him. Adam was told to multiply. If God created others outside of Adam’s lineage, I can’t find them.
Can someone here tell me what is meant by “blasphemy against God” ?
Alabama John,
In response to your post above and the identity of animals which died in the flood. Not every verse in scripture portrays the complete picture. While reading the following passages you should notice, the creatures of the sea were within the instructions to be destroyed. One of the determining factors was (air breathing) or that have the breath of life in them, Gen 7:15.
(Gen 6:6 NIV) The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.”
(Gen 6:13 NIV) So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
(Gen 6:19 NIV) You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.” 22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
(Gen 7:14 NIV) They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
(Gen 7:21 NIV) Every living thing that moved on the earth perished–birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Every thing on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
(Gen 8:18 NIV) So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds–everything that moves on the earth–came out of the ark, one kind after another.
Correction on statement above, the creatures of the sea were NOT within the instructions to be destroyed.
AJ, The “face of the earth” means the surface of the earth. Water creatures weren’t condemned.
Jay – I know you must be shaking your head by now. Before closing out this section, I must directly challenge your assertion that NO “archaeological or geological evidence for a global Flood”, exists. You are obviously just not specifically educated in this matter, because no one informed in this area of the archaeological record would make such a sweeping assertion.
Take for a well documented example, that in the mountains, plateaus and foothills of the Appalachian Mountains exist beds of “Brachiopod” fossils. Are you familiar with these? Can you explain their appearance so far inland as at such high areas well above sea level?
Brachiopods, Ray, live only in the sea, as they are “marine animals”, and the associated species avoid locations that have strong currents or waves. The larvae of articulate species settle in quickly and form dense populations in well-defined areas while the larvae of inarticulate species swim for up to a month and have wide ranges. Brachiopods live mainly in cold water and low light.
Ray, you need to repent of your boldly inaccurate assertion!
If God can create a man like He did Adam He could of done the same, before or after a flood and anywhere on earth He wanted. The lineage from Abraham written down is for a point not to be taken as the absolute and to limit God in doing what ever He wants with man and this earth or galaxy or universe.
Remember the earth could not hold all the books of what God has done here. Lot we don’t know.
God can say one thing and change His mind like he did in this flood thing. Those quoting God and the law must remember that. Some changing is written down, its sure possible, even likely, that much is not.
He has done that many times.
No telling how many times man has grieved Him yet He still sent His son to die for us and that means all of us humans His spirit was in from birth. That alone is hard for so many to understand.
AJ, God certainly could have created people anywhere on the earth he wanted but the Bible clearly says Adam was the first man and Eve was the mother of ALL THE LIVING (Genesis 3:20). In fact the name Eve means “mother of all the living”. So, unless there were multiple Eves, everyone descended from Adam and Eve.
Skip, we must be careful in limiting God and interpreting His words in the bible. Eve was not the mother of all living as she was not the mother of Adam.
Best to not limit God in any way and to have that in mind as we read and study the bible.
I have seen men, many of them, that I believe on judgment day will use their interpretation of the bible to correct God as if they understand better than God does.
AJ said,
” Eve was not the mother of all living as she was not the mother of Adam.”
AJ that is sophistry at it’s best. Like saying, “depending on what your definition of is, is.”
AJ, I have no intention of limiting God and don’t believe I have. Eve could not be the mother of Adam but surely was the mother of all after Adam. If not, we have sinners outside of Eden and eternal life and sinless perfection within at the same time.
Skip, I meant no disrespect, and am not picking on you but wanted to quote the verse you used to make a point I feel is very important today during all this conservative, progressive, debating especially down here in the deep South. My point is we believe God is right in all he does and says and admit we do not know all that God has done on this earth. The bible does not limit God, it does the opposite, but gives us a very small insight for a purpose.
So, when we interpret anything said or written in a way that is wrong or limiting God we must question our thinking.
Its sad to hear preachers putting God in a box and using the bible to do so. Its almost as if God will answer to them someday.
Monty
The bible says in Genesis 3:20 Eve was the mother of all the living and gave no time line.
Is that correct when at that time Adam was alive with her and she came from his rib bone, not him from her?
NO.
It would of been more accurate to say Adam was the father of all living as that would of included Eve.
Then we must dig further to understand the meaning as Skip has. Bible verses can be taken out of context and we Christians are good at doing that to prove denominational positions, even the churches of Christ.
Eric,
Brachiopods in the Appalachians? Are they in flood deposits? What is their date? What fossils appear below and above these layers?
I grew up in North Alabama, in the hills. I dug coral fossils out of the limestone. No oceans anywhere near. But it clearly not a Flood deposit. First of all, why do those particular corals no longer exist? Why did they go extinct in the Flood? Second, why weren’t they crushed by the waves that presumably swept them up from the Atlantic in the global Flood? What chemical process would create 30-foot think layers of limestone filled with fossilized corals from a Flood? And why no fossils of indigenous floral or fauna mixed in? Why ONLY ocean creatures? Why not pine trees? Deer? Foxes? Possums? How did the Flood magically separate the corals from the magnolias, pines, and maples?
No, obviously, that area of my state used to be a sea and the sediments built up over a very long time, when there were no land plants or animals. Later, the seas dried up by plate tectonics, and land animals and plants took over. Which is why they are not mixed together. Whereas a Flood with waves so large they sweep corals and brachiopods to the Appalachians would sweep along everything else. In fact, you’d think that the modern pines and deer and possums would be at the bottom, with the brachiopods and corals on top. But it’s the other way around.
And the species that were supposedly swept by giant waves to the tops of the Appalachians are largely extinct. Why didn’t modern sea creatures get caught in the waves? Where are the whales and dolphins and tunas?
It’s concerns such as these that, long before Darwin, caused 19th Century Christian scientists in Europe to reject the Flood theory for ocean fossils found on mountains and consider other, more ancient explanations. And since then, the evidence of plate tectonics and similar supporting theories have only confirmed that early, pre-Darwinian conclusion that these ocean fossils are millions of years old.
Skip, with regard to polystrate fossils, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil
Jay – obviously you are predisposed to disprove the Bible, especially regarding the flood, and nothing I can say will change your mind. Therefore, no further time spent discussing this is advised, although I wlll say that clearly you do not have expertise in this area.
Eric,
When I respond to a YE argument, the YE advocate either refers me to yet another argument or responds with insult. The debate rarely gets past this stage. If these were good arguments I’m sure my objections could be easily dealt with.
My lack of expertise is beside the point. I mean, if I’m an ignorant amateur, then my questions should be really easy to answer.